I need stereo image help!

[DarkEcho]

I cant seem to decide what I like/want as far as acoustic imagery...

I tend to not like the really washy distant sounding stuff, is it best to use a mixture of reverbs in a song? I add some reverb to my entire drum kit and it just sounds incorrect. no matter what setting, huge open canyon or small drum room, nothing sounds "good" to me. I just leave it dry, but then it seems smaller...

i cant seem to make it sound as big without adding all the freakin waterfall shimmer sh!!*#

can someone help me make my mix wider and help me on tastfully chosing reverbs without making it sound like a beach.

what else can I do to emphasize width and depth without reverb?

[tINY]

Did you record with stereo overheads?

How are you routing them to the reverb?



-tINY

[Kiwiburger]

Learn how to do send effects, and just try reverb on your snare alone - for a start.

Or - if you must reverb your drum submix, roll off the highs and the lows, so the kick doesn't get too muddy and the cymbals don't get too sizzly.

Juxtiposition is the key. If you apply big reverb to everything, everything sounds the same. If everything is dry, and suddenly out of nowhere you hit something with big reverb, it seems massive.

Try pre-delay - you can get big results with less reverb and less clutter.

Delays can give a good sense of space without clutter.

Listen carefully to your favorite mixes, and see how they are done. There are so many tricks - no real rules, it's all up for grabs.

[DarkEcho]

I do everything ITB with samplers or synthe.

[DarkEcho]

what should I do to replicate the sound verb wise from the fragile by NIN?

[tINY]

I only have pretty hate machine....

For sampled drums, you could get a sampled set that sounds the way you like. Or you could do something like a small room reverb with a long early reflection setting.



-tINY

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

what should I do to replicate the sound verb wise from the fragile by NIN?

Overuse it? Not a big fan of that album precisely because of the 'verb.

Anyways, if you need the sounds to have 'verb but still stay present in the mix you need to pay attention to the following:

1.) You're running the 'verb as an aux buss or send, right? Not inserting it in the track and playing with the wet/dry ratio, right? Also, make sure the verb is 100% wet on the aux buss. That way you get 100% of the dry sound, plus however much 'verbed sound depending on how much you buss to the aux.

2.) Pre-delay is your friend. That gives the dry sound a chance to be heard before the 'verb cloud starts building up. 20 milliseconds is a good starting point. Anywhere from 10 to 60 milliseconds is common. That will keep things up front, but with ambiance.

3.) Brighter 'verbs feel closer to the listener. Use a shelf or lowpass filter to knock off some top end off the verb. Try a roll off around 3-6 khz for starters. Will move the 'verb in the background, but let you get some mileage out of it.

4.) Time the verb (RT60) to work with the tempo of the song. Works wonders in reducing the sonic clutter.

5.) Dampening absorbs high freqs over time, so the front of the 'verb will be brighter than the tail, making the verb feel more distant. Try that too.

6.) Try increasing the low end decay time or shortening the high end. That's how you get huge without being too spitty on top.

7.) For percussion the main thing that determines the "size" of the space is what's happening on the snare. Maybe less overhead 'verb and a bit more snare. Heck, multiple 'verbs on snares work... I've ran a nonlin, plate and room simultaneously in the past and would do it again. Tweak it right and the snare stays front and center, but is big with a nice decay to it.

8.) Setting a balance between early reflections (ER) and the reverb tail is a key to the psychoacoustic distance the listener will perceive. Don't go nuts with the ER's, it can sound a bit weird on many sources and feels closer. Less ER's seem to put things in the distance. However, sometimes it is fun to put a lot of ER on percussion and keep the tail muted a bit. Sounds like shit is bouncin' off the walls.

Hope this helps!

[James Meeker]

Other ways to get width and depth in a mix:

1.) Chorus stuff. Try chorusing only one side of a signal. Can be cool with clean electric guitars.

2.) Flip a side on a stereo track out of phase, mix in 3-6 db underneath the other side.

3.) Haas effect--delay one stereo side on an element or two by 10 milliseconds or so.

4.) Make an aux buss with a pitch shifter on it: detune one side by 6-16 percent, and tune up the other side by 6-16 percent. I.e. left is pitchshifted -6 and right +6 percent. Classic trick.

5.) Buss a few things to an aux with a delay on it. Go sparingly. Ping pong delay can be fun on high hat.

6.) Create an aux buss with a stereo widener on it like Waves S1. Run various stuff to it.

7.) Put a flanger or phaser on an aux buss with a panner. Run a few things to it ever so slightly. You shouldn't really hear it, but you should notice when its gone.

8.) Create a drum buss, route stuff to it. Put a bit of a room verb on it... now smash it with a limiter. Throw into your mix a little bit.

9.) If you are doing primarily sampled drums ala electronic/industrial music try running a mix of the drums to a set of speakers in the live room. Now mic the room in stereo. Add to mix. Fun, fun, fun.

10.) Create a buss and run some snare to it. Pitch shift it down an octave. Mix it in a little bit.

11.) Put 20 milliseconds of delay on your room mics to make the room feel bigger.

Add some of the above ideas along with proper and judicious use of reverb and your tracks will take on new life and size.

[thx1138]

No need for any other tips... just perfect

[Unclenny]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

Anyways, if you need the sounds to have 'verb but still stay present in the mix you need to pay attention to the following:

Originally Posted by James Meeker

Other ways to get width and depth in a mix:

Great posts!

Excellent info for mutiple applications.

[James Meeker]

::BLUSH::

I'm kind of a spatial nut. I love depth and space in music.

[DarkEcho]

Absolutely fantastic info people! I will be printing thus off and trying it today. How do you delay the room mics without simply adding a delay to them (inwhich case you'd get the normal signal as well as a delay... Is thisone of those global track settings? aKA not an insert or send? Or are you sending and muting the original?)

[DarkEcho]

I think what I am mostly after is very big presence and closeness but with a definite sense of depth and width.. I want things to be very intimate and in tour face at times, drums/piano/and bass wise. Ambient synth stuff can be in the background.

----Can you have one instrument and create the same sense of depth as having multiple instruments with variations of reverb????

[Chris Nighman]

James,
Just wanted to say thanks for all of your recent posts. You are a wealth of knowledge.

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

How do you delay the room mics without simply adding a delay to them

Insert a delay in the track 100% wet. No feedback. It just delays the sound by 20 milliseconds. Granted you could nudge it, but I don't like anything that destructive in case I want to A/B things.

In ProTools I use the Digidesign Slap Delay, 20 ms. Simple as pie. In the hardware world an Eventide H3000 works great. Same idea.

This is a big component of the Steve Albini drum sound, according to Albini himself.

[James Meeker]

Also, don't be afraid of using a large number of aux busses. Last night I was mixing an electropop (along the lines of Shiny Toy Guns, but more 90's techno influence) record and the sheer number of FX busses was pretty staggering... because most of the record is direct synth, samples and so forth so there is NO ambiance present.

So I added some.

From memory, I believe these are the busses I was running:

1 - Short/Close Reverb (Sony Oxford)
2 - Medium/Medium Distance Reverb (Sony Oxford)
3 - Long/Far Distance Reverb (Sony Oxford)
4 - Bright Plate Reverb (bit of snare, bit of kick)
5 - Dark Plate Reverb
6 - Non-Lin Verb (Short) snare jumps between 6 and 7 depending on part of song
7 - Non-Lin Verb (Long)
8 - EMT 250 for main vox (TL Space IR)
9 - 140 Plate, lowpass roll off for backing vox (TL Space IR)
10 - Split Harmonizer Stereo (-9/+9 pitch shift)
11 - Pitchshifter (mono) down 50%
12 - Chorus 1 (whole note sine sweep)
13 - Chorus 2 (half note sine sweep)
14 - Delay 1 (quarter note modulated echo)
15 - Delay 2 (eighth note ping pong)
16 - Delay 3 (eighth note dot pitchshifted echo)
17 - Delay 4 (10 ms delay for Haas effect bussing)
18 - Delay 5 EchoBoy set up for a gritty, lofi echo in one part of the song

This was definitely a record. Most I've ever used by about 6 busses... hahahha.... mixing is so ridiculous sometimes.

A lot of these FX are automated to come on only during certain passages, or hits... they aren't going on all the time. Nor am I using a huge amount of any of the FX. Moderation is key.

For a rock record I'll use somewhere around 6 aux busses on average. Depends on what needs to happen. The heavier the music the less you can do with it and the emphasis seems to become on compression and EQ, whereas with something poppy like this you can go ape with FX, especially when about 75% of the mix is direct instruments. I put a TON of ambiance with an ultracompressed room mic on the bass guitar to add some live feel to the record.

Keep in mind that more *OR* less isn't better... better is better. But last night's mix just seemed to need a lot of stuff to make it amazing.

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

Can you have one instrument and create the same sense of depth as having multiple instruments with variations of reverb????

That's where chorus, detuning, pitch shifting, Haas effects, delay AND 'verb come in handy.

Personally I prefer to multitrack stuff and combine it with those FX to get the biggest sounds.

[DarkEcho]

I could barely crack your list yesterday. I just started playing around and bam my allotted 3 hours of "fun" time had diminished.

I did get a chance to play with delay and found that if I used Logics SampleDelay and shifted one side by 128ams (don't know what ams is) the part sounded doubled and wider! Is this what pitch shifting and the haas effect and detuning/chorusing do?

[cassiopamusic]

wow James i think i learned more reading your post then i did my entire school year! amazing info thanks alot.

[aeonsound]

great tips, James Meeker! thanks :)

here's one from a friend (swedish producer Beatnik). originally intended for snares, so it's more an individual-component thing, but for electronic/synthesised/grimy drums it works a treat.

Normally I'll now set up a send effect with very short early reflections reverb that's 100% wet (no original sound)
That send effect is highpassed too (but in online using also something like a LinEQ) and also lowpassed.

I tend to then pre-fader send the snare to that effect channel, and then sliightly compress the original snare post-fader... this means that the original snare gets compressed and loses some of the tail, which is then replaced by the tail that's coming from the send early reflections reverb.
This gives the sensation of a snare spreading from being central in the stereo field to being much wider - which in turn, in the mix, means the snare tail occupies more stereo space but can also leave other sounds to poke through.
i.e. big snare sound, but not cluttering up too much of the mix

[edwardsean]

[quote=James Meeker;1816216]Overuse it? Not a big fan of that album precisely because of the 'verb.

1.) You're running the 'verb as an aux buss or send, right? Not inserting it in the track and playing with the wet/dry ratio, right? Also, make sure the verb is 100% wet on the aux buss. That way you get 100% of the dry sound, plus however much 'verbed sound depending on how much you buss to the aux.

I was just wondering what the difference is. If you're not going to process the effected portion separately with e.g. EQ or panning, is there a difference between using the effects wet/dry ratio or using the mixer to control it? Everything I do is ITB. Does the advice still apply?

[psycho_monkey]

[quote=edwardsean;1819388]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

Overuse it? Not a big fan of that album precisely because of the 'verb.

1.) You're running the 'verb as an aux buss or send, right? Not inserting it in the track and playing with the wet/dry ratio, right? Also, make sure the verb is 100% wet on the aux buss. That way you get 100% of the dry sound, plus however much 'verbed sound depending on how much you buss to the aux.

I was just wondering what the difference is. If you're not going to process the effected portion separately with e.g. EQ or panning, is there a difference between using the effects wet/dry ratio or using the mixer to control it? Everything I do is ITB. Does the advice still apply?

Well, if you have an infinitely powerful computer, nothing, apart from the fact that you're likely to comprimise the instrument's individual panning - if everything has a stereo output because you've put a reverb insert on everything, it's going to be hard to pan things as you had previously. Plus of course, wet/dry is like a balance control - as you turn up the wetness, the direct level of the sound decreases - on most plugins at least, you can't just add reverb in this way.

In more practical terms, you run out of processing power eventually. Plus it makes it easier to put things in the same space by sending them all to the same verb.

[Heartfelt]

I'm printing this thread. I learned so much I deleted my ealier post in noobish embarassment.


Thanks James and others, for the insight. MUCH appreciated.

[Keldog]

I guess the printers are spittin pages everywhere then.

Great thread
and mucho Thanks to James.

[DBlakely]

Best thing I've read all day. I plan to try this stuff on guitarz tonight.

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by edwardsean

I was just wondering what the difference is. If you're not going to process the effected portion separately with e.g. EQ or panning, is there a difference between using the effects wet/dry ratio or using the mixer to control it? Everything I do is ITB. Does the advice still apply?

I think it matters.

1.) Allows you to use and pan mono signals somewhere in the mix using a stereo reverb. Also allows you to use stereo 'verb on a mono signal; now this may not seem important but your DRY signal is mono, and the 'verb is in stereo versus your dry signal becoming stereo-ized by an insert effect. Slight but noticeable to my ears.

2.) You will have to fiddle with the element's volume level as you change the dry/wet ratio on the insert 'verb. Annoying. Also, having the 100% dry signal in the mix seems to help focus the sound.... maybe this is subjective relating to the "insertion loss" of volume when making something wetter.

3.) For some reason insert 'verbs seem to suck some of the life out of the signal, seems to sound more organic going to an aux buss. Maybe this is subjective and related to number 2.

4.) You can always route more stuff to that aux buss if need be. In the long run this is DSP efficient.

5.) As mentioned earlier, you can put FX after the aux buss that tinkers with only the aux 'verb. Sometimes I put Digi LoFi afterwards to "emulate" the sound of vintage digital 'verbs, for example.

6.) Automation is simpler using aux sends and often achieves more of the desired results than an insert. For example--you're running a snare to one of two different reverbs, if you automate them as inserts there will be a cut off of the 'verb tail when they switch. Using aux sends would eliminate that and preserve the tail.

Honestly, having tons and tons of aux effects is simpler ITB. In ProTools HD it is almost impossible to run out of busses and tracks unless you get super carried away (which you never should because you know the limits of your system).

My setup I mix on is PT HD4 going to an SSL 4056 G+ with a fair amount of outboard EQ/compression. We don't have a ton of 'verb or FX outboard at the studio so a majority of what I do is plugin based and automated in PT. Everything I've talked about probably works BEST ITB or with a PT back end.

Glad this stuff seems to be helping some people out.

[DarkEcho]

James, let me thank you again for throwing all of these suggestions into this thread, it's phenomenal.

when doing these sends, we want to send it out post fader, but not post-pan, and definately not prefader, right? this gives us control over its volume irregardless of the source tracks volume, and complete pan control, right?

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

James, let me thank you again for throwing all of these suggestions into this thread, it's phenomenal.

when doing these sends, we want to send it out post fader, but not post-pan, and definately not prefader, right? this gives us control over its volume irregardless of the source tracks volume, and complete pan control, right?

when sending prefarder it's for an effect like if you fade the dry signal but wa