Recreating/recording 70's era Funk drumming/ breakbeats

killahertz · 29th June 2004

I make drum n bass music that is based on sampled loops of 70's era funk "breakbeats"(an area in the record where just the drum groove is paying) a lot of these loops they come from old vinyl are not as hi fi or as versatile as i might like. I have reviewed lots of sample cds trying to achieve this sound but most seem to sound way to hifi and are more akin to to rock then funk. So i am looking for advice as to how I can use a session drum to achieve my own custom library. What kind of equipment, mics, kits techniques, drum tunings, rooms, etc... should I try. Its come to my attention that most drums back then were recorded with just 1 or 2 mics and used mostly the room sound. Mono is fine for me as well if thats going to add to the sound. If anyone could help to enlighten me it would much appreciated
thanks,
dave

p.s. examples are
the winstons - amen brother
james brown - funky drummer

cdog · 29th June 2004

Two words: Bernard Purdie. You can't fake the funk.

http://www.bernardpurdie.com/discography.htm

killahertz · 29th June 2004

i think my chances of getting him are slim to none. Although i realise the drummer is probably the biggest factor in the equasion i am most interested in the types of equipment and techniques i am going to need to employ

BrianK · 29th June 2004

I would say it is usually close-micing in a dead room. Very dea, is common then - carpeted studios were the norm. Less high end is a MUST - not only were they using warm/dynamic mics, but the tape itself (often at 15 ips -16track) lost a bit of sizzle but added warmth and midrange excitement. Tape compression, in tracking and mixing, creates some of the sound.

We used to put wallets and tape paper towels (and maxi-pads) onto the drum heads to make them dead...

Try placing a pair of overheads down LOW to get the main drum sound. Add one snare mic close in, and a kick mic. That should be similar to what "they" used; mixers didn't have tons of inputs for mics and tape tracks for seperate drm mics were NOT available.

jazzius II · 29th June 2004

you'll need to hit some real tape to get that sound.......why not also cut the loops to vinyl (acetate?) then resample them for the ultimate authetic vibe?

TeReKeTe · 29th June 2004

as a drummer who does DnB and remix stuff here, I wind up doing alot of this kind of stuff. a few pointers:

--you're right. it's the drummer.
--you want a well-tuned kit w/ drums from that era... a kick that sounds like a kick and not an 808, a snare that sounds like a snare and not a whip, and cymbals that are darker than what's popular now..
--a bright, medium-sized room. you def. want some rom saturation going on.
--mic-wise, yes, not too much top end. get an oktava ml52 (I wish I had 2!) or something similar as your main room mic, and close mic the kick and snare. at least 80% of your sound should come from the room mic.
--compression! play around w/ varying degrees of ballsy comp on the room mic; bring in the close mic's to get back the transients. if everything's in phase, it'll work like a charm. the RNC sounds great in this application... so does a distressor...
--I think you can get enough of an approximation of tape saturation in the box... but distortion in general is something you want to get the real junglist vibe. I've had luck setting up another room mic (usu. a small condenser), overdriving the pre, and cutting everything below like 400hz as well... bring it in just slightly for some nastiness.

but really, you need to get a performance that's got the groove... and for that, you need the drummer!

edyer · 30th June 2004

I remember reading somewhere that Dave Garabaldi ( Tower of Power) was flabbergasted because he had to stuff newspaper in his drums in order to get the cool motown sound they were after.
He the groove for sure. Listen to some of his stuff sometime He is very funky indeed. Definately under rated imo.
Eric

not_so_new · 30th June 2004

I will second Bernard Purdie!!

I hear that he used to take two signs with him to tracking sessions and would not start the session until they were both in place on either side of the kit..

The first sign said.. "Now you Dun'it" and the second "Now you Dun hired the best drummer in the world Bernard Purdie"

LOL

Anyway lots of good (and some conflicting) comments. Tuning is a must, low tuning is the deal for toms and snare. Snare and toms are lower than you hear now. Kick drums tend to be more woody if you know what I mean, slightly higher than now. Not so 50 60 hz more 100 or 150, maybe even 200 hz creeping in.

One of the biggest things to remember is NO resonance from the drums, toms and snare use dead ringers, kick with lots-o pillows. Especially important I think no front head on the kick and no resonance heads on the toms. I would tend to lean in the real real dead room with lots of close mics vibe. Might want to look for a drummer that plays without rims shots on the snare as well.

Now I know this is the simple answer but, use your own ears. Go get some Stevie Wonder, KC and the Sunshine Band, and Aja from Steely Dan (not really disco or straight up funk but the production is the same and it could be the single best production of all time, at least in some peoples eyes

and as a bonus pretty Purdie plays on a few tracks, can’t go wrong)

Hope this helps. I would love to hear what you come up with, post some stuff if you get time..

edyer · 30th June 2004

There is also a video out by a drummer named " zoro" maybe "zorro" I can't remember the spelling but he pretty much breaks down the funk thing in a fairly easy to understand way. He goes into accenting and what not also. That may help you a little.
Eric

initialsBB · 30th June 2004

Aren't the Funky Drummer and Amen breaks are pretty early? Does the dead room and dampened drum thing really apply or is that more of a late '70s disco thing? Also did mics on every drum come around with the maxi pads and anechoic rooms or were people still using minimal micing by that point? It seems like the earlier JB sound is more of a raw, open sound but I don't really know.

What snare drums lend themselves to a '70s funk sound? I've tried to get this sound and my biggest dissapointment has been with the snare. I'm currently using a wood no-name '60s japanese snare but would like to try something new. Wood? Metal? Size? Heads? Thanks!

chrisso · 30th June 2004

Quote:

Originally posted by initialsBB
Aren't the Funky Drummer and Amen breaks are pretty early? Does the dead room and dampened drum thing really apply or is that more of a late '70s disco thing?

You're right. People are confusing the two sounds.
Before the dead drum booth sound, drum sounds had more in common with jazz. More resonant bass drums and toms, higher tunings for snare and toms, standard heads like Ambassadors or Aquarian satin coated are helpful IMO.
TeReKe Te pretty much covered everything I would do.
As TeRe said, the artists of that era were still looking to achieve 'high end' drum sounds, it was just a different era as far as taste and techniques were concerned. Also, there may have been some compromises borne out of limitations in equipment, limitations in the recording room and limitations in time (eg: recording everyone at the same time leading to drum spill in other instrument mics).

For snare maybe try Ludwig Supraphonic or Acrolite models.

not_so_new · 30th June 2004

Yep sorry. After I posted I realized the original post was talking "Funky Drummer" and such, not later funk / disco. Yes JB's early and middle years (I would consider the late 60's and early 70's as his middle years) are more open drum sounds. Not much in the way of toms at all but the kick is still a little woody. Don't forget to get the squeak in the kick pedal!!

To me lots of the JB stuff sounds like a band in the room kind of recording. It would make sense knowing JB's history of mid 50's recordings and the techniques used at the time.

If I were going for that sound (and funny we are talking about it because I am working on a funk CD like the J. B.s now) I would go for minimal mics in a medium live room. Maybe room mics and the recoderman overhead technique with a single kick mic. Some people talked about tape compression and that would really help but if you are going digital I would add a bit of HEDD tape process or some distortion from a Disstressor (neither of which I own yet but I know what both of these boxes are trying to accomplish and if they work as well as people here at GS say they do they would be the ticket for this sound).

Lastly if you do a lot of drum production now three or 5 mic technique drum recordings can scare you at first, they don't sound like drums that you are used to hearing in playback. Do it for a bit and it will start to sound more natural, actually you might start to prefer it even.

Sorry for the first post, I guess I should have read your topic better.....

TeReKeTe · 30th June 2004

Quote:

Originally posted by chrisso

For snare maybe try Ludwig Supraphonic or Acrolite models.

took the words out of my mouth! try a wallet on the snare for dampening, rather than an O ring, and a pretty cranked coated ambassador for the batter head.

spherop · 30th June 2004

1.33 * X/Y - (^7+8.2)/6.543221

Should cover it.

sismundi · 30th June 2004

I don't have anything to add, other than kudos to killahertz for a willingness to go the extra mile for art. Such an uncompromising attitude is totally refreshing in the current moist milue.

Hope it works out for ya.

initialsBB · 30th June 2004

Quote:

Originally posted by TeReKeTe
took the words out of my mouth! try a wallet on the snare for dampening, rather than an O ring, and a pretty cranked coated ambassador for the batter head.

Thanks for the tips! I'll try to check those snares out.

Bob Olhsson · 30th June 2004

Don't forget to put the hundred dollar bill in the wallet! On the other hand, you might just want to hire Ed Greene for a session. A 57 from across the room will easily get you that "'70s sound."

BrianK · 1st July 2004

Yes! It is sooooo good that you want to MAKE your own beat and breaks. Even if you have to cut vinyl to make it work - you have made YOUR OWN record, not stolen someone else's work (and called it your own).

Nowadays that IS so commendable. Of course - we love old records and the vibe they created. It is STILL uncreative to just sample that and make your own record. It can make a good record, but YOU are the uncreative part of the chain if you do it that way, the one with less talent. It is not easy to make drum tracks that good - the drummer, engineer, producer all spent years getting good so they could mnake that record. Any idiot could sample it, even if they are creative with it afterward. The challenge is to do things the HARD way - I am so happy to hear you are trying.

29th June 2004	#1
killahertz Gear Head Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 72 Thread Starter	Recreating/recording 70's era Funk drumming/ breakbeats I make drum n bass music that is based on sampled loops of 70's era funk "breakbeats"(an area in the record where just the drum groove is paying) a lot of these loops they come from old vinyl are not as hi fi or as versatile as i might like. I have reviewed lots of sample cds trying to achieve this sound but most seem to sound way to hifi and are more akin to to rock then funk. So i am looking for advice as to how I can use a session drum to achieve my own custom library. What kind of equipment, mics, kits techniques, drum tunings, rooms, etc... should I try. Its come to my attention that most drums back then were recorded with just 1 or 2 mics and used mostly the room sound. Mono is fine for me as well if thats going to add to the sound. If anyone could help to enlighten me it would much appreciated thanks, dave p.s. examples are the winstons - amen brother james brown - funky drummer

30th June 2004	#15
sismundi Gear interested Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: swissland, canuck section Posts: 24	I don't have anything to add, other than kudos to killahertz for a willingness to go the extra mile for art. Such an uncompromising attitude is totally refreshing in the current moist milue. Hope it works out for ya. __________________ funboy

30th June 2004	#17
Bob Olhsson Motown legend Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Songwriter Gulch, Nashville TN Posts: 10,638	Don't forget to put the hundred dollar bill in the wallet! On the other hand, you might just want to hire Ed Greene for a session. A 57 from across the room will easily get you that "'70s sound." __________________ Bob's room 615 562-4346 Georgetown Masters 615 254-3233 Music Industry 2.0 Interview

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29th June 2004	#2
cdog Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 3,437 3 Reviews written	Two words: Bernard Purdie. You can't fake the funk. http://www.bernardpurdie.com/discography.htm

29th June 2004	#4
BrianK Gear addict Join Date: May 2003 Location: Hollywood Posts: 364	I would say it is usually close-micing in a dead room. Very dea, is common then - carpeted studios were the norm. Less high end is a MUST - not only were they using warm/dynamic mics, but the tape itself (often at 15 ips -16track) lost a bit of sizzle but added warmth and midrange excitement. Tape compression, in tracking and mixing, creates some of the sound. We used to put wallets and tape paper towels (and maxi-pads) onto the drum heads to make them dead... Try placing a pair of overheads down LOW to get the main drum sound. Add one snare mic close in, and a kick mic. That should be similar to what "they" used; mixers didn't have tons of inputs for mics and tape tracks for seperate drm mics were NOT available.

29th June 2004	#5
jazzius II Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,002	you'll need to hit some real tape to get that sound.......why not also cut the loops to vinyl (acetate?) then resample them for the ultimate authetic vibe?

29th June 2004	#6
TeReKeTe Gear nut Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: brooklyn, ny Posts: 123	as a drummer who does DnB and remix stuff here, I wind up doing alot of this kind of stuff. a few pointers: --you're right. it's the drummer. --you want a well-tuned kit w/ drums from that era... a kick that sounds like a kick and not an 808, a snare that sounds like a snare and not a whip, and cymbals that are darker than what's popular now.. --a bright, medium-sized room. you def. want some rom saturation going on. --mic-wise, yes, not too much top end. get an oktava ml52 (I wish I had 2!) or something similar as your main room mic, and close mic the kick and snare. at least 80% of your sound should come from the room mic. --compression! play around w/ varying degrees of ballsy comp on the room mic; bring in the close mic's to get back the transients. if everything's in phase, it'll work like a charm. the RNC sounds great in this application... so does a distressor... --I think you can get enough of an approximation of tape saturation in the box... but distortion in general is something you want to get the real junglist vibe. I've had luck setting up another room mic (usu. a small condenser), overdriving the pre, and cutting everything below like 400hz as well... bring it in just slightly for some nastiness. but really, you need to get a performance that's got the groove... and for that, you need the drummer!

30th June 2004	#7
edyer Gear addict Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: OVER HERE !!! Posts: 463	I remember reading somewhere that Dave Garabaldi ( Tower of Power) was flabbergasted because he had to stuff newspaper in his drums in order to get the cool motown sound they were after. He the groove for sure. Listen to some of his stuff sometime He is very funky indeed. Definately under rated imo. Eric

30th June 2004	#8
not_so_new Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,695	I will second Bernard Purdie!! I hear that he used to take two signs with him to tracking sessions and would not start the session until they were both in place on either side of the kit.. The first sign said.. "Now you Dun'it" and the second "Now you Dun hired the best drummer in the world Bernard Purdie" LOL Anyway lots of good (and some conflicting) comments. Tuning is a must, low tuning is the deal for toms and snare. Snare and toms are lower than you hear now. Kick drums tend to be more woody if you know what I mean, slightly higher than now. Not so 50 60 hz more 100 or 150, maybe even 200 hz creeping in. One of the biggest things to remember is NO resonance from the drums, toms and snare use dead ringers, kick with lots-o pillows. Especially important I think no front head on the kick and no resonance heads on the toms. I would tend to lean in the real real dead room with lots of close mics vibe. Might want to look for a drummer that plays without rims shots on the snare as well. Now I know this is the simple answer but, use your own ears. Go get some Stevie Wonder, KC and the Sunshine Band, and Aja from Steely Dan (not really disco or straight up funk but the production is the same and it could be the single best production of all time, at least in some peoples eyes and as a bonus pretty Purdie plays on a few tracks, can’t go wrong) Hope this helps. I would love to hear what you come up with, post some stuff if you get time..

30th June 2004	#10
initialsBB Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: LA Posts: 2,113	Aren't the Funky Drummer and Amen breaks are pretty early? Does the dead room and dampened drum thing really apply or is that more of a late '70s disco thing? Also did mics on every drum come around with the maxi pads and anechoic rooms or were people still using minimal micing by that point? It seems like the earlier JB sound is more of a raw, open sound but I don't really know. What snare drums lend themselves to a '70s funk sound? I've tried to get this sound and my biggest dissapointment has been with the snare. I'm currently using a wood no-name '60s japanese snare but would like to try something new. Wood? Metal? Size? Heads? Thanks!

30th June 2004	#14
spherop Gear maniac Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 251	1.33 * X/Y - (^7+8.2)/6.543221 Should cover it.

1st July 2004	#18
BrianK Gear addict Join Date: May 2003 Location: Hollywood Posts: 364	Yes! It is sooooo good that you want to MAKE your own beat and breaks. Even if you have to cut vinyl to make it work - you have made YOUR OWN record, not stolen someone else's work (and called it your own). Nowadays that IS so commendable. Of course - we love old records and the vibe they created. It is STILL uncreative to just sample that and make your own record. It can make a good record, but YOU are the uncreative part of the chain if you do it that way, the one with less talent. It is not easy to make drum tracks that good - the drummer, engineer, producer all spent years getting good so they could mnake that record. Any idiot could sample it, even if they are creative with it afterward. The challenge is to do things the HARD way - I am so happy to hear you are trying.