Native interface with latency free inserts during record (from MoTu)

[nativeaudio]

I've never used any MoTu-gear, but this products could represent a change in the latency situation for inexpensive native DAWs. I'm heading towards some kinds of Apogee/Symphony setup myself (still waiting for a high-end 8 in / 8 out I/O), but the 828mk3 actually solves some problems that the Symphony interfaces doesn't.


From the press release:

The mixer allows users to apply no-latency effects processing to inputs, outputs or busses directly in the 828mk3 hardware, independent of the computer. Effects can even be applied when the 828mk3 is operating stand-alone (without a computer) as a complete rack-mounted mixer. Input signals to the computer can be recorded wet, dry, or dry with a wet monitor mix (for musicians during recording, for example).

Effects include reverb, parametric EQ and compression/limiting. The 828mk3's Classic Reverb™ provides five different room types, three frequency shelves with adjustable crossover points, shelf filtering and reverb lengths up to 60-seconds. Two forms of compression are supplied: a standard compressor with conventional threshold/ratio/attack/release/gain controls and the Leveler™, an accurate model of the legendary LA-2A optical compressor, which provides vintage, musical automatic gain control. Finally, the EQ section provides 7-band parametric EQ modeled after British analog console EQ's, featuring 4 filter styles (gain/Q profiles) to effectively cover a wide range of audio material. LP and HP filters are also supplied with slopes that range from 6 to 36 dB.

The 838mk3's flexible effects architecture allows users to apply EQ and compression on every input and output (a total of 58 channels), with enough DSP resources for at least one band of parametric EQ and compression on every channel at 48 kHz. However, DSP resources are allocated dynamically and a DSP meter allows users to keep tabs on the 828mk3's processing resources. Each input, output and mix bus provides a send to the Classic Reverb processor, which then feeds reverb returns to mix buses and outputs, with a selectable split point between them to prevent send/return feedback loops.

On MoTu's own site, I found this:

Input signals to the computer can be recorded wet, dry, or dry with a wet monitor mix (for musicians during recording, for example).

If only there would have been a way to control levels/inserts etc. from the DAW channels trips directly...

[Fredrik]

Doesnt the fact that this interface has built in dsp and effects mean that these effects aren´t native though?

[nativeaudio]

Sure, but the interface itself is made for people who work natively (as opposed to TDM-based)... I see the effects that can be applied during record just as an advanced monitor solution. The moment a track is recorded, one can continue to work natively. But of course you are right, the monitoring effects aren't 'native' as such - this looks a bit like a hybrid between a native and DSP based system, and solves at least one of the issues people have had with native rigs in the past, namely that recording roundtrip latencies (with inserts) are dependent on the buffer size of the DAW.

The new MoTu interface operates the same way as reply option #2 in this Digidesign poll.

[idrinkalot]

focusrites latest 1u interface did the same thing last year right? if the original drivers weren't so buggy i imagine it would have had a much bigger bang..

[bafonso]

onboard dsp with cheapish Fx is nothing new.... I'd be more worried about the ADC/DAC quality...

[nativeaudio]

Originally Posted by bafonso

onboard dsp with cheapish Fx is nothing new.... I'd be more worried about the ADC/DAC quality...

I'm unaware of others that have made similar products in the past, because I jumped from PTHD directly to RME and haven't really followed the development of anything with 'cheapish' FX in. Still, if this can be done in an inexpensive interface, it can be done in other interfaces as well. The ability to have dynamically allocated DSP in the I/O itself - enough to add EQ and compressor on all recorded tracks - PLUS reverb sends on all tracks - kind of ends the discussion about 'the problem with native DAWs is that you'll either get high latency during record or no inserts during record'. The key word is buffer size, and with independent effects for monitoring, inside the I/O itself, the buffer size doesn't matter any more (for audio recording). You could use the 1024 setting throughout the project and still have the same latency during record as if you used the 32 buffer setting.

Put one of the new, miniature chips (found in the Mac Book Air) inside the next generation of Lynx or Apogee interfaces, and you probably use whatever non-cheapish plugins you want during record.

With all the processing power available today (for a low price), I'm not even sure that the effects in this MoTu interface necessarily sound cheapish. Maybe the quality of the EQ, comp and reverb is more than adequate for real time monitoring purposes during record, which is what they are intended for. I've been recording for 20-25 years, and have yet to hear an artist complain about the quality of the EQ or compressor applied to his voice or instrument during record. The main purpose of using EQ or comp in the monitor chain us to help the artist hear himself better, which is important for intonation and performance, and I can't see why this couldn't be done in interfaces in any price range today, because processing power has become so inexpensive. Since you can buy a whole computer for a few hundred bucks, why shouldn't it be possible to add a few real time efx to an interface for $100-200? The amount of DSP that's needed to add EQ/comp/reverb to the tracks that are being recorded is minimal.

[deuc647]

Well m aybe im reading into it too much, but it say latency free insert efx during recording right? Well i cannot apply any plugs i want and correct me if im wrong, but arent people using other vst au tdm plugs, how do you monitor through those and the wet signal?

[nativeaudio]

Originally Posted by deuc647

Well m aybe im reading into it too much, but it say latency free insert efx during recording right?

It says 'latency free', which in the digital domain always means 'low latency'.

Well i cannot apply any plugs i want and correct me if im wrong, but arent people using other vst au tdm plugs, how do you monitor through those and the wet signal?

They don't claim that you get something that can replace a PTHD rig, and of course: they don't they claim that you can run any VST or AudioUnit or TDM plugin in real time on their $795 interface. This is a 'native' solution, so it can't run any more TDM plugins can than a TDM system can run AudioUnits.

If you want to run AU/VST plugins in your session, you have to do it in your DAW.
If you want really low latency in other native systems, you normally can't run inserts on tracks that are being recorded in large projects (due to increased buffer size).

So - if you need to record with plugins, and have a large project, and don't use TDM, you can either wait for a fast computer that allows you to run the 32 (or lower) buffer setting throughout your project, or you can use a hardware mixer for monitoring (with EQ and compressors).

MoTu's new 'hybrid' interface is both an interface, a hardware mixer and a bunch of EQs and compressors, which allows you to set up and EQ/compressor/reverb on the tracks you record without using Software Monitoring (which adds latency). It's probably not intended to work as 'standalone DSP power' for the tracks that already are recorded - your computer will take care of your VST/AU plugins. AFAIK this interface only offers effects when an artist wants EQ/compressor in his signal chain WHEN he is being recorded.

I'm not going to buy this I/O myself, but I guess I would have bought it if I wanted a mixer, I/O and real time (monitor) efx for $795, because this solution will give people low latency and inserts during record on a low budget, even when a song it's getting close to be finished, which again is something even a Symphony system with an 8-core Mac won't do. Buffer sizes matter when there's no DSP in the I/O, and increased buffer sizes always means more latency (if you need to use inserts during record).