where does distorted guitars live?

[frist44]

I've tracked a punk band and I'm looking to get some good guitars. Upon mixdown, I'm having trouble get them to be clear without piercing, and full without the mud.

What frequencies are your heavier type guitars dominating?

Also, I think the sloppiness has something to do with how much gain the amp had during tracking, do you find you usually have reduce the gain for recording vs. live show gain?

Thanks,
Brandon

[inaudio]

Rule no 1 - make sure they sound to your ears the way they want them to before you put a mic up to record them. No EQ or fix it in the mix will help if they didn't sound that way whhen you recorded them.

My arrogant opinion.

In other words, it may need to be re-recorded!

Lou

[LTA]

Originally posted by frist44
I've tracked a punk band and I'm looking to get some good guitars. Upon mixdown, I'm having trouble get them to be clear without piercing, and full without the mud.

What frequencies are your heavier type guitars dominating?

Also, I think the sloppiness has something to do with how much gain the amp had during tracking, do you find you usually have reduce the gain for recording vs. live show gain?

Thanks,
Brandon

Try the mid-range guitar ala tom scholz and Boston. It is beefier than it appears.

Now, another opinion on "get it right at the source." A tube amplifer is an instrument unto itself. While it doesn't have a bridge and strings, it does have knobs that are used to tune it to optimum settings. Now for the disclaimer: optimum settings are not an absolute sound, but rather the set of parameters that allows the amplifier to react in an optimum way to the player's input. EQ before the preamp affects how the preamp distorts. A trebly setting will yield a creamy distortion as compared to a bassy signal creating a fuzzy distortion. A pre-preamp eq changes the flavor and the way an amp reacts to the player. Next, there is often an eq between the preamp and power amp. This eq is used to tailor the signal to drive the amp into an optimum state of power section distortion. It should be tweaked to get the best relative guitar sound. At either the pre or the poweramp stage, the guitar does not have to be exactly how you want it to be to sit in the mix.

I am going to skip the speaker and head straight to the mic placement. You can use this as a form of eq to cut the treble by rotating the mic off-axis, and to boost the bass by moving the mic off-center. This is overgeneralized just to make a point. There are no less than 3 sources of "eq" in a guitar amp between the player and the mic pre/board. All of these need be optimally tweaked in order to have the absolute exact sound you want in the mix. Since that is near impossible for many reasons, the board eq is there to nudge the sound into place.

That said, you can use the board eq to accent the strong parts of the tone, or to bring out the weaker parts. But you have to listen to that exact guitar sound to make that decision.

[enharmonic]

Hmmm...what type of amps were you recording. Generally, guitar frequencies will all live in the same range, but there's a HUGE difference bewteen a cranked twin and a cranked recto...and you'll have to approach them differently IMO.

I might have half a clue for you once I know what kind of amps you recorded. Aside from that, my "rule" is that if it dosen't sound right going down, it won't sound right when I try to mix it. I don't like much eq on guitars in a mix because it can get ugly real fast...and not ugly in a good way.

[warhead]

This is why I love re-amping!

War

[sup but]

http://marsh.prosoundweb.com/index.p...2827a32f2747c8

Worth a look.

SupBut

[frist44]

Both tracks were JCM2000 and PRS tracked with a 121 and 57 into a chandler and great river.

I was having trouble tailoring things while tracking because it was all going on in the same room. It's not to waste time when you have to record a clip just to hear what's going on. I'm stuck with the tracks I have, so if you could offer some advice from here on out, I'd appreciate it.

Aside from that, getting guitars to sound good wouldn't necessarily mean that would work with the mix, that's really what I'm talking about when i ask what usually has to be done later. For instance, are you HP or LP or adding some presence or low mids?

Brandon

[djui5]

can you post a sample of the mix?...it's really hard to comment on something without hearing it..

[bloodsweatfire]

Originally posted by frist44


Aside from that, getting guitars to sound good wouldn't necessarily mean that would work with the mix, that's really what I'm talking about when i ask what usually has to be done later. For instance, are you HP or LP or adding some presence or low mids?

Brandon

I am not wanting to be rude, honestly, but that sounds a bit niave.
It's like saying don't bother to do your best to get the best vocal tone you can, before tracking, because you might have to tweak it later to sound it's best within the mix.
There is no sense to that.

Acoustic guitars often get cut and tweaked to sound good within a tune, but they are not recorded cut and tweaked.

The fundamental tones won't change even within the mix, it is exceptional advice from others who recommend you get 'the' tone you want prior to tracking, whenever possible.

BTW-When you feel in doubt or insecure about distorted electric guitar tone, pop in AC/DC back in black.

[doorknocker]

Chandler TG-2, I bet it would solve your problem.

Andi

[doorknocker]

Originally posted by bloodsweatfire
Acoustic guitars often get cut and tweaked to sound good within a tune, but they are not recorded cut and tweaked.

If I know beforehand how the mix will be 'populated' i.e how dense, drums/bass or not/etc, then my tracking method will take that in account, especially mic choices. I recently 'discovered' the good old SM 57 thru a decent pre (TG-2 or UA 6176 or 2108) to be killer for this. An acoustic guitar destined for a band track I will almost always have mono-miked. The idea is to get rid of a lot of bottom end during recording, more cut will be applied during mixing. I also had nice results with MD 421s or Beyer M201s for acoustic guitars.
As far as distorted guitars are concerned, try an AKG D-112 (yes, the kick mic) along with a 57 or 421 on the cabinet. Put the D-112 on or between the lower speakers and the 57/421 on one of the upper ones and record them to 2 seperate tracks. I often also add a third room mic, often processed thru a 1176 in all-in mode. Between these mics you should get the sound you want without any or with just a weenie bit of EQ.
BTW, the D-112 idea I got from an article by Harvey Gerst, it's working exceptionally well for heavy guitars, I haven't tried it on cleaner/Fender-type amps yet, but I surely will.

Andi

[frist44]

I have a TG2. Here's is a mix of it I did but everytime I go back guitars is what gives me the concerns.

the clips are on the studio page of www.bigbluesound.com. The song is Addison 2.

With regards to getting the right tone before you start, do you usually make any necessary modifications to the tone for the sake of recording, like rolling of the low end on the amp, or adding more mids on the amp?

Thanks,
Brandon

[doorknocker]

Originally posted by frist44
[b]With regards to getting the right tone before you start, do you usually make any necessary modifications to the tone for the sake of recording, like rolling of the low end on the amp, or adding more mids on the amp?

Generally yes, but I'm generally not fond of too much low end on guitar amps. Be it live or in the studio, too much low end will mess with the bass and muddy up the mix. As for mids, I tend to use more and meaner settings while recording though. Sometimes you must exaggerate your point, so to say, to make it work in the mix. That's one of the reasons I love the TG-2 so much, the midrange is so sweet but still powerful and cutting.
Another thing I sometimes do is hook up a POD to a mini amp (like a Mini -Twin or Danelectro Honeytone) and mike that with a 57. I got some great twang/surf sounds that way. A lot of it is perception, the 'size' of say a guitar amp is dependent on its context. A soloed small amp will probably sound just like that, small, but in context with drums and bass you might get a low-end impact that beats miking a big, subsonic cabinet.
Compression can also be helpful, distorted guitars are compressed anyway but using an outboard comp like a 1176 might tighten up the sound considerably and save you precious sonic real estate.


Andi

[Ol' Betsey]

Originally posted by frist44
I've tracked a punk band and I'm looking to get some good guitars. Upon mixdown, I'm having trouble get them to be clear without piercing, and full without the mud.

What frequencies are your heavier type guitars dominating?

Also, I think the sloppiness has something to do with how much gain the amp had during tracking, do you find you usually have reduce the gain for recording vs. live show gain?

Thanks,
Brandon

Hi Brandon,

I'm not the best of mixers but this what I generally try to do...

(Assuming the bassplayer is playing BASS as opposed to a guitarplayer that THINKS he's playing bass ie. concentrating on the bottom-end. Very different in my opinion.)

Keeping a long and varied story short:

I isolate the bass and the drums and get those working together, make sure the BG isn't masking the BD etc.

Then I do the same with bass and guitars. Hopefully you can carve some of the lower-mids out of the guitars and not lose any of the weight and get the upper-mids to stick out without them sounding too cranky.

Hopefully get them all working together, tweak to taste and then maybe compress the backing track a bit and plop the singer on top.

MUCH easier said than done, I know...

And FWIW, I try not to mess with the players tone/distortion if he's doing leads (if the player knows what he wants and knows what he's doing... it's quite a personal taste-thing) but I tend to find that in the studio less distortion at tracking, especially if your layering guitars, helps with keeping things large.

Good luck,

R.

[djui5]

Originally posted by frist44
I have a TG2. Here's is a mix of it I did but everytime I go back guitars is what gives me the concerns.

the clips are on the studio page of www.bigbluesound.com. The song is Addison 2.

Brandon,

Sounds like something I tracked a while ago...

I think the guitars are sitting nicely in the mix...

The problem is with the sound of the guitars.....

Did you double the guitars? If not then this will help. Also..some heavy subtractive EQ'ing in the upper end will get rid of this "edge" that your trying to get rid of.....
Add some delay..see if that helps.

Next time you track guitars like this try not close mic'ing them....it's better to mic then at least 2' away...with a LD condenser.... close mic'ing picks up too much of that "edge" that's bothering you.

Hope this helps.