Old beat up piano vs. NI Akoustik Piano

Hi Ladies!
Over the years I went from a real piano to electric pianos to virtual pianos. Once in a while I get to play on great sounding grand pianos like Steinways, Bechsteins, etc.

But the other day I had an absolute eureka moment when I was asked to play on some old piano (forgot the brand) at my brother's girlfriend's place. It was so inspirational! I couldn't believe it it sounded so much more alive, broken, organic and just "wrong" than any of the above!

While I like Steinways and other grand pianos, they sound too clean and perfect pitch to me. Almost like playing with samples (not really ).
But this old totally beaten piano had a life of its own .

While I like working ITB I hate messing about with samples of real acoustic instruments. They are supposed to be played with the "real thing" – that was always my believe and it now comes full circle. NI's Akoustik Piano - when not tweaked right - does not sound real and believable to me. I tried adding atmo tracks (the room, my breathing) while playing – so that it sounds a bit more believable (and it does) but it just feels like cheating to me. I also hate the velocity response of Akoustik Piano when played over MIDI (127 steps just isn't enough):

So here's my question:
Should I just get a cheap old ****ed up piano off some grandma stick two Oktavas on it and be done with it?
Is that a sensible idea? What about tuning that thing is that something I could learn to do by myself?

Confused...

[miqer]

A Lady I am not...

People are selling quite good pianos for not soo much in germany. Most are having problems with neighbors, they need space or they never play anymore. Takes some time, see a couple. Listen... 2nd hand. Got one last year for 700 euro's + 250 shipping (I didn't lift a finger) that has ended up on a lot of records.

Mind you, I like Dylan, Randy Newman, sixties/70ies type folky-rock music, and it is not very important for the piano to be 100% in tune. So I only have it tunes 2 times a year... cost about 80 euro's.

So, yeah... it's a 1000 times nicer than the NI piano...

The vst piano's are beginning to sound good, and are really handy if you need to work fast (making commericials or scoring a film, with a director next to you etc.)... but a real one, with peddle in, playing soft, 2 oktava's getting it stereo... nahhh, can't beat that.

You have to be a bit lucky... the piano, the room, mic placement etc. needs to be right. I suggest ribbon mic's

You could aldo try playing the vst piano over a tube guitar amp (no distortion), next to a opened tuned accoustic guitar in the same chord, and micing that stereo with the oktava's. I've done this with great results.

But he, I don't like no ultra clean piano sound...

That said, with the oktava 012's over a piano, you can get a sound just as clear as the sampled once. I usually take the front off the piano, so you see (and hear a bit more of) the hammers. Mic's placed in front of that.

m.

[trippy]

I'm always surprised when I listen to (usually older) recordings and hear "crummy" sounding pianos. Being so used to the pristine sound of the ubiquitous samples that are used, it's hard to remember that in many cases when I first heard those recordings as a kid, they sounded great. The quirks add a lot of character, just like the varieties in a singer's pitch which one doesn't hear much anymore on mainstream pop.

As far as piano tuning goes, it's a pretty complicated endeavor that I explored briefly years ago. It's obviously changed nowadays with the use of strobes w/programmable offsets for stretch tuning, etc., but to me the real deal has always been a good tuner who does it by ear. They all have a different style and found that I hated some and loved others when I had a chance to compare.

Then there's the whole issue of temperament over the ages, which is fascinating in itself. Some keyboards (like a Triton, for example) have a choice of a number of alternate temperaments besides modern "equal tempered" tuning...

[insomnio]

I had an epiphany last year with my upright piano vs. sampled ac. One year later my final conclusions are:
1) Not all acoustic pianos work in all arrangements. So is nice to have the virtual or whatever fake at hand.
2) If you insist in using the real deal, is better to begin with it and build the song around it because that's the one sound you cannot change drastically.
3) Be sure to take your time to experiment with mic positions, move the piano around the room and different mics and pres. In the case of the piano, the slightest change does make a huge difference.
4) I still favor ac vs. sampled. I wish I had a grad in my studio, but even my upright sounds much, much better than any sampled version of the best grand piano of the world.

[jimmyjimjim]

agreed.
Any real piano will always be better than any sample piano.
A real piano add content to your song.
A great sample might provide a function in an arrangement, but it will be a question about how to hide it's fakeness.

[ALL*MYTEE]

I think the question is: do you plan on moving in the next three years? If you own your own place--go for it. As long as you find one with character that you really like.

[djwayne]

A sampled piano is better than no piano. I was checking out Steinway B's on the internet, they were selling for $30-50,000. So no Steinway for me. Even a cheap piano wouldn't fit in my studio, so samples it is.

With a real piano you have moving, storage, tuning, micing issues. Samples, you just set it up and go. I've gotten some great sounding piano recordings using the sampled Steinway B in East West's Symphonic Orchestra program.

You can hear a sample at my SoundClick website below, look for "House Of The Rising Sun."

[theblue1]

Damn!

I was really hoping this was about a plug in called Old Beat Up Piano!


I could really use that as my actual old, beat up piano (all 103 years of old, beat up) is down in the garage.


I hear you on the sample issue... I've used a number of non-high end sampled Rhodes pianos and never found one that really worked for me. But when I discovered the modeled (and free) Mr Ray 73, I knew I'd found something that would tide me over for at least a while. Because it's modeled, it doesn't have the steppy, threshold-affected sample-driven sound but is, rather, somewhat more continuously variable -- but not really in a noticeably unrealistic, linear fashion. Does it sound exactly like a given Rhodes? Not exactly. But it has some of the same types of nonlinear responsiveness and variabilty as a real world instrument.

Still, the sound of a Rhodes is, in almost all ways, a considerably less complex, variegated sound that that of a conventional acoustic piano. There are some modeled acoustic pianos, and they can be very useful in some circumstances, but they're far from 100%, for sure...

Wow, thanks for the suggestions guys.
Maybe I'm not as insane as I thought I was

I'm also nip and tuck. The setting-up part is probably not an issue once it's done. But I agree on all the downsides some of you have mentioned.


@ALL*MYTEE
Yes, in fact I'm gonna move this year. Have to get out of this city

@theblue1
There was a modelled acoustic piano out there, I believe it was called PianoTeq. What I don't like about the idea of a modelled piano that it is in fact just a synthesizer and even farther away from the real deal at least in concept. This is not based on experience, though.

... and don't get me wrong I love Synthesizers. But Synths are Synths. Pianos are Pianos.

@miger
Hi! Where are you in Germany? Let's 'ave a drink sometime!
P.S.: Just kiddin' about the 'ladies' part

[djwayne]

I grew up with a beater upright piano, it was always out of tune, but playable, and lot's of fun. It was a real pain in the neck to take care of it, and we finally threw it out after many years of sitting idle. So samples work good for me, without the hassles of owning a big heavy clunker. No regrets here.

[djwayne]

Originally Posted by Peacock

real piano always sounds better

Ya if you can afford one...a good one. A bad, out of tune piano with broken keys, sounds awful, and takes up space.

[numrologst]

Real Piano's are fantastic, but I can never make just one work for me. I have 3 piano's to choose from... And none of them cost more than $10,000.

I hate the argument that says if you don't have x piano, then you are screwed...

I do however believe that you need a good room to make a piano sound right... I have heard too many rooms strip the sound out of a good piano... And there are a lot of people who bash some upright piano's... A good upright in a good room will sound much better than a steinway b in a shit ass room.

So after a long, convoluted explanation... If you don't have a good room, you will fight any acoustic piano tooth and nail... Then to me, it makes more sense to give way to function over form.

[djwayne]

I agree. You have to be able to afford a good sounding room as well as the cost of the piano, plus tuning maintenance, cleaning, micing ect..... I cannot afford all this, so it's samples for me, it's the next best thing.

Another thing is you can't play a real piano thru headphones, so as not to disturb my neighbors, samples is the solution for late night playing.

[bobwarren]

I've been playing synth pianos since I got a Korg M1 and a Roland U-110 module in 1995. I've gotten better sampled pianos over the years and VST instruments sound good. A month ago I bought my first "beater" upright piano to give my kids lessons. Got it usd at a local dealer here in Florida for $480 with shipping and tuned by a pro a week later. I sat down to play it and it lit my living room up. At 36, I'm reborn. The thing inspires my soul!

[Reproman]

I've been looking for an old upright, slightly out of tune, piano sample recently and can't find a thing. Of course having an actual piano would do the trick, but I don't have the room. I can find regular piano samples all day long, but not the old beat up piano sample. I had to use a regular piano sample and put some chorus one it to make it work.

[jimmyjimjim]

Originally Posted by djwayne

I agree. You have to be able to afford a good sounding room as well as the cost of the piano, plus tuning maintenance, cleaning, micing ect..... I cannot afford all this, so it's samples for me, it's the next best thing.

Another thing is you can't play a real piano thru headphones, so as not to disturb my neighbors, samples is the solution for late night playing.

I get so angry when I read this!
I don't believe for ONE SECOND that you have ever owned a real piano IN ANY ROOM, REMOTLY IN TUNE.

You might be selling samples, though.

1/Workable real pianos are given away by people.
2/They might be harder to move, bu it doesn't take much more space than a Rhodes, some stored flight cases, or you big chunky master keyboard.
3/2 friends to move it, a $5 tool and a tuner and youre good to go on a far better basis than ANY SAMPLE.
4/For the high-end experience get a $150 piano tech to tune it for you.


It's not a lot of hassle.

[djwayne]

What are you so mad about ?? I don't sell samples, I use samples, and am happy with the results. Like I said I grew up with an old upright. Now days I use samples because I don't have room for a real piano. End of story.

Let's all take a deep breath in and out

I respect all of your opinions, don't make this a flame war.

I decided to buy that famous 'beat up' piano after I moved to Hamburg later this year.

Keep this thread going to talk me out of it!

[djwayne]

I'm not trying to talk you out of it, if you want one, go for it.

I don't have the room for one.

[zemlin]

I don't have the space or the budget for a piano, but I wanted a decent piano sound for my clients. I got a good deal on a Casio CDP-100 88-key hammer-weighted keyboard, and I just loaded Akoustik Piano last night.

I don't even play well, and I can't keep my hands off the keyboard. I'm tickled with how it plays and how it sounds.

Disclaimers:
I am not a pianist.
I'm not going to try to tell you that it is as good as the real thing.
There isn't an "out-of-tune" tuning option (I wish there was).

but it sounds real good!

[chasman]

here's my opinion. your opinion and experience may be way different.

I've fooled around on piano/keyboards for 3 decades or so now.

the bliss inducing experience which I experience on an acoustic piano has never been matched on an electric or digital piano/keyboard.

digitals have their place. synths, god knows can be awesome.

that said, the overtones or whatever that are part and parcel, indeed integral to an acoustic pianos sound and feel are way cool. its like the thing is alive, and you are a part of it.........or it is an extension of you......I went many years with only digital.............now I've had an acoustic for awhile........for me, in a way, its almost like an acoustic piano is a completely different instrument from a digital........I don't know, maybe a good way to describe it is that with an acoustic piano you can feel the force....................I know thats kind of an out there kind of statement.........but to me it makes sense..........
yeah, I'd say get a nice acoustic..........

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by chasman

here's my opinion. your opinion and experience may be way different.

I've fooled around on piano/keyboards for 3 decades or so now.

the bliss inducing experience which I experience on an acoustic piano has never been matched on an electric or digital piano/keyboard.

digitals have their place. synths, god knows can be awesome.

that said, the overtones or whatever that are part and parcel, indeed integral to an acoustic pianos sound and feel are way cool. its like the thing is alive, and you are a part of it.........or it is an extension of you......I went many years with only digital.............now I've had an acoustic for awhile........for me, in a way, its almost like an acoustic piano is a completely different instrument from a digital........I don't know, maybe a good way to describe it is that with an acoustic piano you can feel the force....................I know thats kind of an out there kind of statement.........but to me it makes sense..........
yeah, I'd say get a nice acoustic..........

ditto.

If you are a piano player, a hunk of plastic won't satisfy you. None.

After many years without a piano, and being a player, my wife and I decided to put out some of our wedding money for a real one. Nothing crazy, but a good piano.

We've NEVER regretted it. It gets played constantly. my kids love it. I work/compose/record/tune it (so yes, you can develop tuning skills, but is probably more than you'd seriously care taking on!?!..) and it throws back at you what no sample library/plastic controller ever can. Real resonance. Nuance. But again, only if you PLAY the instrument. If your talent lies in triggering samples, stay there.

PLUS - if it's quality enough, and maintained properly (like any instrument) a piano can return your investment.

Best advice is - don't take a 'dog' just because it's free. Look around - spend some time sniffing out one that sounds good. There are more than a few good ref. books around to know shite from shinola. You're probably going to pay more for moving it if you find the right catch!!!

IMO, if anyone told you to play a plastic guitar/sax/kit and tell you it's as good as the real thing you'd tell them to take a hike - why accept that for an instrument that's been emulated, but never duplicated - esp. in regards to "feel" and "inspiration" to the performer/artist?

As stated earlier, even a cheap piano has merit - but less if you don't have room for it...

Hope this helps,

[uncle duncan]

I appreciate crappy old pianos, but in a studio setting they're more or less useless - unless you're doing a Tom Waits thing and don't care about tuning.
Many times, old pianos have dried up soundboards that won't hold a tuning. Plus, the strings are dead, the action is worn out, the hammers are hard. Basically, you're getting an instrument that's in need of a major overhaul, much like pulling a car out of a junkyard and hoping to drive it across country.
Tuning is not that hard. You get a tuner, (they run on a laptop these days) a wrench, and a couple of rubber wedges. The hard part is setting the pin so it won't slip. Perhaps you could find a video, or even just hire a tuner-person and watch them.
There's nothing like a real piano, as long as you accept it for what it is (worn out junk) and don't expect to use it on sessions where tuning is important.

[aeonsound]

a good honest 'preloved' upright is a wonderful thing to have around - in the house.

in the studio; perhaps.

but definitely in the house

[Phil Cibley]

Originally Posted by thx1138

What about tuning that thing is that something I could learn to do by myself?

Most likely not. DIY piano tuning is a lot like DIY brain surgery. You have to worry
about: 1)setting the temperment 2)tuning the octaves 3) stretching the top and
bottom octaves, and 4)setting all the unisons for multi string notes. It's a lot to
do, it all interacts, and takes a lot of practice to do well. Call a professional.

[manthe]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Damn!

I was really hoping this was about a plug in called Old Beat Up Piano!


I could really use that as my actual old, beat up piano (all 103 years of old, beat up) is down in the garage.


I hear you on the sample issue... I've used a number of non-high end sampled Rhodes pianos and never found one that really worked for me. But when I discovered the modeled (and free) Mr Ray 73, I knew I'd found something that would tide me over for at least a while. Because it's modeled, it doesn't have the steppy, threshold-affected sample-driven sound but is, rather, somewhat more continuously variable -- but not really in a noticeably unrealistic, linear fashion. Does it sound exactly like a given Rhodes? Not exactly. But it has some of the same types of nonlinear responsiveness and variabilty as a real world instrument.

Still, the sound of a Rhodes is, in almost all ways, a considerably less complex, variegated sound that that of a conventional acoustic piano. There are some modeled acoustic pianos, and they can be very useful in some circumstances, but they're far from 100%, for sure...

Have you seen this?

KVR: Synthogy Ivory Upright Pianos - Virtual Instrument

I have high hopes for it. I have an old upright in the den. Not enough room in the studio and it needs some love. I strongly prefer playing it over Ivory, NI or anything else triggered or emulated. Maybe if I get it overhauled I'll try to drag a few mics to the den and see how it records...

Originally Posted by zemlin

...and I just loaded Akoustik Piano last night....
but it sounds real good!

That was my initial reaction, too. But through time it started to sound.. well... not "right" if you know what I mean.
Maybe it's just me...

I'm still not sure if it's really worth the hassle. I'll probably just get a better keyboard controller or digital piano (something with great action and wooden keys...) and get the Art Vista Piano, 'cos that's the best sounding of all of them to my ears.

Thanks for two very different opinions uncle duncan and Phil Cibley

EDIT: Another but very expensive option would be to get the Moog Piano Bar... might as well just get a proper new piano for that price, though.

[manthe]

Originally Posted by thx1138

That was my initial reaction, too. But through time it started to sound.. well... not "right" if you know what I mean.
Maybe it's just me...

I'm still not sure if it's really worth the hassle. I'll probably just get a better keyboard controller or digital piano (something with great action and wooden keys...) and get the Art Vista Piano, 'cos that's the best sounding of all of them to my ears.

Thanks for two very different opinions uncle duncan and Phil Cibley

I agree. I LOVE the way AV sounds. Ivory is great, but it is a bit 'fancy pants' as someone else put it. The AV stuff sounds very dark and organic...not as nice as the real deal, but in a mix, you wouldn't really notice too much.

I also must add that I've owned NI Akoustik for a few years now and I've come to loathe it completely I just can not get it to work for me. Nothing helps either. Could just be a matter of taste. I might just sell it and be done with it...put that towards AV!

[piranesi]

Originally Posted by miqer

A Lady I am not...

People are selling quite good pianos for not soo much in germany. Most are having problems with neighbors, they need space or they never play anymore. Takes some time, see a couple. Listen... 2nd hand. Got one last year for 700 euro's + 250 shipping (I didn't lift a finger) that has ended up on a lot of records.

Mind you, I like Dylan, Randy Newman, sixties/70ies type folky-rock music, and it is not very important for the piano to be 100% in tune. So I only have it tunes 2 times a year... cost about 80 euro's.

So, yeah... it's a 1000 times nicer than the NI piano...

m.

I have several quite nice pianos including the NI Akoustik. My favourite is the Pianoteq by Moddart. That being said my beat up piano is OK but not special. I'd like to buy a baby grand for me and my son if you have any idea where in Germany I could get one. I live a little to the South in Italy.

George Snow
Cortona

[B-Muzik]

real piano dude! Ill be the one to trhow 2 QTC40s on a POS piano and add some reverb and have that thing soundin like liquid crack...GET IT! Ta hell with VSTs even tho i use them all the time...GET A REAL POS PIANO AND PIMP THAT SHIT!