Transformers in the Signal Path-- how many is enough?

[chickencoop]

I've been curious about this. (Good) Transformers in the audio path are generally a good thing, but how many is enough? You could have mic with an output transformer going into a pre with an input and output transformer going into an eq and/or compressor each with input and output transformers into your recorder.

Will too many over do it? Will introducing a transformerless input and/or output stage at any point in the signal chain mess up the "transformation" of the signal?

I know that many awesome recordings are made with transformers all throughout the signal path, so I know that one answer is that you can't have too many. I'm curious to hear what people thing about having transformers in some parts of the signal path (say your pres) with a transformerless mic and/or something like a fully/partially transformerless compressor or eq. If you start with a transformerless mic and run it into a transformer coupled (in & out pre) and then into a transformerless compressor or one with only an input transformer, does that last stage undo any of the magic goodness that the transformers did earlier in the path? Are they more crucial at one point than at another?

I know this is kind of idiotic and the resulting sound is what matters, but I'm hoping for some high-falluting answers from some audio geniuses.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by chickencoop

Will introducing a transformerless input and/or output stage at any point in the signal chain mess up the "transformation" of the signal?
...does that last stage undo any of the magic goodness that the transformers did earlier in the path?

Transformers add their color by distorting the signal. Sending that signal into a transformerless device will not un-distort the signal.

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by chickencoop

I've been curious about this. (Good) Transformers in the audio path are generally a good thing, but how many is enough? You could have mic with an output transformer going into a pre with an input and output transformer going into an eq and/or compressor each with input and output transformers into your recorder.

Will too many over do it? Will introducing a transformerless input and/or output stage at any point in the signal chain mess up the "transformation" of the signal?

I know that many awesome recordings are made with transformers all throughout the signal path, so I know that one answer is that you can't have too many. I'm curious to hear what people thing about having transformers in some parts of the signal path (say your pres) with a transformerless mic and/or something like a fully/partially transformerless compressor or eq. If you start with a transformerless mic and run it into a transformer coupled (in & out pre) and then into a transformerless compressor or one with only an input transformer, does that last stage undo any of the magic goodness that the transformers did earlier in the path? Are they more crucial at one point than at another?

I know this is kind of idiotic and the resulting sound is what matters, but I'm hoping for some high-falluting answers from some audio geniuses.

Hi

A typical vintage Neve has around ten from the mic or line input to the bus output plus a handful more on the monitor mix/monitor output.

Still sound OK!

[chickencoop]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Transformers add their color by distorting the signal. Sending that signal into a transformerless device will not un-distort the signal.

Originally Posted by Geoff_T

Hi

A typical vintage Neve has around ten from the mic or line input to the bus output plus a handful more on the monitor mix/monitor output.

Still sound OK!

Thanks a lot-- I figured. I'm also curious about where they are most important in the path. Also very happy that I've gotten responses from well-recognized audio geniuses already-- what a great board!

[Brad McGowan]

I don't know if you can really determine an exact number since some transformers distort more than others. So if you had two really dirty vintage transformers in the signal path that might be too much, but 12 high-nickel Jensens might not be colored enough. I know there have definitely been times when I've run an instrument or mix through a piece of gear with transformers and thought to myself, "Gee, I don't like what's happening in the low end at all." As always, anything that creates distortion is going to sound good or bad depending on what level signal you send into. Transformer distortion is a function of frequency and level for the most part...well at least those are the variables you have control over.

Brad

[TonyBelmont]

The answer is 5.

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

The answer is 5.

Hi

Correct, in the case of the Neve 5302 Melbourn!

[chickencoop]

If that's the only answer, the question is decidedly out of my pay grade

Also, if the attending audio geniuses would indulge me here-- in general, is there a part of the signal chain (e.g. mic output transformer, mic input transformer, etc.) that will influence the resulting sound more?

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by chickencoop

If that's the only answer, the question is decidedly out of my pay grade

Also, if the attending audio geniuses would indulge me here-- in general, is there a part of the signal chain (e.g. mic output transformer, mic input transformer, etc.) that will influence the resulting sound more?

Hi

It depends on the quality of the transformer and the nature of the circuit.

I tend towards believing that output stage transformers have a greater effect... except in the case of a 1272 I once found with a 12v to 120v ac transformer instead of the 10468.

Changing that made a huge difference!

[tINY]

Originally Posted by Geoff_T

except in the case of a 1272 I once found with a 12v to 120v ac transformer instead of the 10468.

Changing that made a huge difference!

Did it have more mojo with the AC power transformer?



-tINY

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by tINY

Did it have more mojo with the AC power transformer?



-tINY

Hi

Well, if mojo is all bass and not much else and distorted like hell... yes.

[AllAboutTone]

Llking this thread, keep them coming.

[dbbubba]

While the classic Neves had X-formers all through the signal path consoles like QuadEights, Spheres, etc... only had a tranny on the mic input and at the outputs.

It is interesting to note that my old Sphere Eclipse C sounded remarkably close to a Neve 8058 I used to bounce back and forth between.
No, it wasn't exactly the same, but they were closer in sound than the Sphere and a Neve 8128 that I used during the same time period.

The guy that had the 8058 bought that console in 1991 because he wanted to duplicate the sound of the Sphere. He was advised that a 80 series Neve would be a close match.

I hate to tell you how little he paid for the 8058 in 1991.
It was pre Neve "hipness" and before everyone started to appreciate the 80 series.
(can you say $32K?)
He did spend a bit of money having Fred Hill re-furb it.
In all, he probabely had less than $50K in it and it was immaculate.

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

While the classic Neves had X-formers all through the signal path consoles like QuadEights, Spheres, etc... only had a tranny on the mic input and at the outputs.

It is interesting to note that my old Sphere Eclipse C sounded remarkably close to a Neve 8058 I used to bounce back and forth between.
No, it wasn't exactly the same, but they were closer in sound than the Sphere and a Neve 8128 that I used during the same time period.

The guy that had the 8058 bought that console in 1991 because he wanted to duplicate the sound of the Sphere. He was advised that a 80 series Neve would be a close match.

I hate to tell you how little he paid for the 8058 in 1991.
It was pre Neve "hipness" and before everyone started to appreciate the 80 series.
(can you say $32K?)
He did spend a bit of money having Fred Hill re-furb it.
In all, he probabely had less than $50K in it and it was immaculate.

Hi

I know that around that era Neve brokers used to pick up 24 channel Neve consoles out of TV studios for around £2K because they were written off by the studio and no doubt palms were greased in the transaction.

[vernier]

Amount of transformers ..it doesn't work that way.

[chickencoop]

Originally Posted by vernier

Amount of transformers ..it doesn't work that way.

That wasn't really my question FWIW-- the thread title is a little over simplified.

[dbbubba]

I know... I know...

After I thought about it, he might have bought the 8058 short-loaded (20 ins?) for $18K and then invested $14K to bring the total price after the re-furb to $32K.
It seems like this console was owned by a "rep" for Neve (?) in some place like Singapore of the far east. I forget the details now.

I almost partnered with a guy and bought the 8068 mkII at The Church Studios in Tulsa, OK. in early 1992.
I think that console was originally from The Power Station in NYC.
They were asking $65K, but they were "ducking their heads" when they threw that price out there.
I think $50K would have bought it.
Those consoles doubled within a few years.
Triple now!

Then again, once gear is depreciated and written-off, the companies can't re-sell it for a lot w/o paying substantial taxes on the net proceeds of the sale.
This is how I bought my Sphere Eclipse C in 1999 for $1500!

Them was the days!