Given these 3 mics, which one would you buy?

[Pandemonium]

Hi.
I currently own a U87ai, Shure SM81 and BG 4.0, 4 SM57's, Shure BETA 52A.
For some strange reason, my 2 SDC's (sm81 and bg 4.0) have a lot of self noise, specially when i'm recording quiet instruments like acoustic guitar, and strings. The hiss always becomes apparent in the final master.

I have the budget to buy 1 microphone, a good one, to use as: OH mic, acoustic guitar, percussion, strings, and maybe voice. This way I will have 2 good condensers (u87 + new mic) to record in stereo if needed, and to have 2 different mic flavors.

My options so far are:

AKG 414 XLS: good as OH, acoustic guitar, strings, voice. Variable patterns.

Neumann KM 184: good for acoustic guitar, small bright percusion (like tambourines, shakers, maracas, which i use a lot), fast transients. Cons: Maybe too bright as OH and cymbals??. Cardioid only

Audio Technica AT4050: Inexpensive, variable pattern, workhorse mic, transparent.

Which one would you choose?

Thanks

[Pandemonium]

Just to clarify, my 2 main, main uses would be for acoustic guitar, and bright percussion (tambourines, maracas, hi-hat, shakers, etc).

[B-Muzik]

C414 all the way! I have C414's and I love them...they sound terrific...i actually have the Ltd model and it is wonderful...I use mine mainly for vocals but it still shines as overhead...Its an instrumental mic but i like using it for vocals cuz its rally flat and I can shape the sound that I want from it so it an be used it many applications...

[Analogue Vanity]

of those options,
I would probably get the 414. they don't suck on anything.
I would recommend the Peluso P12 as another option. Maybe a bit out of budget however. I have one and use it quite often for these purposes. Cascade mics are quite nice as well and are very affordable. Fat head is a favorite around here.

[T_R_S]

KMi 84 is the best of the 3 for Acoustic stuff IMO.

[Paul Secondino]

I'd base your decision on how you feel about the U 87. What's your impression of it ?

Also, for drum over heads, I prefer to use two of the same large diaphragm condensers, at least on drums.So my advice will be based on what you like or dislike about your current mics.

[Pandemonium]

how does the AT4050 compare to the Akg 414??....A lot of people say the Audiotechnica is a great mic, for a lot of sources. And it is inexpensive.

Yeah, i'm also considering a Fathead.

[Pandemonium]

Originally Posted by Paul Secondino

I'd base your decision on how you feel about the U 87. What's your impression of it ?

Also, for drum over heads, I prefer to use two of the same large diaphragm condensers, at least on drums.So my advice will be based on what you like or dislike about your current mics.

For me, the U87 is great for vocals, and acoustic guitars. Haven't tried it on OH's or on anything else.
I don't track drums very frequently, but sometimes I do.

I don't mind using 2 different condensers for OH's. i know, i know. That should be the case. If I had the budget, it would be great.

[warhead]

For lower noise I would definitely go large diaphragm. How can you go wrong with a 414? I think you'd be fine. Ultra low noise though and great sound, it's hard not to think of the Shure KSM32 or KSM44 (KSM44 overall has a less hyped sound to it).

War

[1979]

Having used all of them I would buy the 4050- but I could take or leave the km184, and I really don't like c 414s. Why not look at more boutique type mics in that price range- The big names like neumann and akg just are not putting out quality products anymore.

IMO The 87 should cut it on acoustic guitar better than any of the above metioned mics.

How bout some ribbons?

[Paul Secondino]

I was thinking the u 87 should be very nice on acoustic . Since acoustic guitar tracks needs to be compressed in most cases , starting out a little bright wont hurt. I actually use a Audio Technica 4047 on my 12 string acoustic. It's not the most flattering mic but it puts the 12 string in a nice place in the mix. I might say go for the 4050 over the akg.

[mltamisin]

for acoustic guitar and percussion I'd go with the KM184. It will pair well with your U87 on acoustic and it's sick on percussion of any sort.

[mbrebes]

First of all, I've recorded acoustic guitar with an SM81 and never had problems of a high noise floor. I would be suspicious of your mic preamp(s). You never told us what you are using for preamps.

Second, for adding another mic, the AKG 414 is always a good choice. Very versatile. For a number of years, that was the only condensor mic I had and it got used on everything.

[Pandemonium]

Ok. Different opinions, so far.

Some questions.

1. Would you guys say the Akg 414 is a good mic for signals with a lot of transients, and HF energy (like tambourines, shakers, acoustic guitars) ? I've heard that sdc's are better for these applications. true?

2. Is the Neumann KM 184 a good mic for recording quiet sources?? Does it have a lot of self-noise?

3. Is the Neumann KM 184 way too bright as drum OH's?

Sorry, I can't try out these microphones, so i'm asking you people, who have lots of experience.

Thanks

[Pandemonium]

Originally Posted by mbrebes

First of all, I've recorded acoustic guitar with an SM81 and never had problems of a high noise floor. I would be suspicious of your mic preamp(s). You never told us what you are using for preamps.

Second, for adding another mic, the AKG 414 is always a good choice. Very versatile. For a number of years, that was the only condensor mic I had and it got used on everything.

I'm using Presonus Digimax 96k preamps. Somewhere down the line i'm gonna update preamps and converters. I think good mics are very very important.

[Tom Hakala]

I know it isn't on your list, but have you thought about Josephson C42?

[Pandemonium]

Originally Posted by Tom Hakala

I know it isn't on your list, but have you thought about Josephson C42?

No, but I will also check that one. Thanks

[dwall]

I own a pair of AT4050's. I'd pick the 414 if I had it to do again. I like the AT4050 for nylon guitar, though (though my main one there now is my Peluso 44 27se). The AT4050 is cool with a tambourine from quite a distance. I also might mix it with a M160 on acoustic in certain situations, though I don't usually like it on acoustic. I don't usually like it on vocals unless the singer has a really smooth, clean voice.

I used to have a KSM44. Sold it a few years ago and got a Rode NT2000 (pair actually). I want the KSM44 back! It wasn't hyped at all and I recorded it flat and was close-miking a bit too much, so back at that time I didn't really realize what it was worth (I do now, when I go back to older recordings I did). Anyone wanna' buy a pair of NT2000's?

[AmplitudeAudio]

You may want to look at the Gefell M930 as well, $1,275 at Mercenary. Compact, great sound, ultra-low self noise. I use a matched pair for OHs.

[HeavyG]

AKG 414...pretty darned good at everything.

[Pandemonium]

Originally Posted by AmplitudeAudio

You may want to look at the Gefell M930 as well, $1,275 at Mercenary. Compact, great sound, ultra-low self noise. I use a matched pair for OHs.

I will check it. A little bit over budget though.

[The Chemist]

My opinion (not very valuable, but here it is):

C414: Depends which one really, but I'm on the fence about the 414s in general. My like/dislike for them changes daily. Sometimes they're excellent, and other times, I want to destroy the one I use and be done with it. But, big picture, they're very versatile, and packs a lot of punch (Patterns, variable roll-offs and pads) for $1k.

KM 184: Nice, but over-glorified. Nothing spectacular on guitar or OHs in a matched pair, but I love this mic paired with a beyer M130 for ye olde MS. A good choice, IMHO, for woodwinds and strings, and for the MS I mentioned.

4050: A good vocal mic. I found it causes acoustic guitars to cut way too much, and gives electrics a shrill temperament. A good workhorse much like the 414, but excels when you need brilliance and cut.

That's my opinion. I'd suggest a 4060 or perhaps a good ribbon, like the M130.

[66d35]

Originally Posted by Pandemonium

I'm using Presonus Digimax 96k preamps. Somewhere down the line i'm gonna update preamps and converters. I think good mics are very very important.

So is a good preamp.

The Digimax is nothing special, really kind of so-so and average. You already have some very nice mics, you don't really need any more. You do need a very much better preamp/interface to bring out the best in the mics you already have.

Andy

[poeticdrums]

+1 KM 184. I used it recently on a session that was a crazy fusion between classical guitar and the beachboys (really a bizarre kind of song) and I just think it sounded fantastic on acoustic guitar, as well as on hi-hat.

[sahiaman]

I've had both the C414 and the KM184. What I liked about the C414 was that is was good on every source. I never really sounded bad on anything, but they I did think it was overly bright on a couple applications on certain cymbols.
The KM184 wasn't for me at all. It over hyped my acoustic guitar string noise and made it almost impossible for me to enjoy the sound.

With the price of two C414s I was able to get two akg 451eb with ck1 capsule, and a pair of gefell m300s used. I really dig both of those mics, very natural sounding to my ears.

[allencollins]

what??? No KSM44? huh? Sorry dude, no ksm44? you can't be a gear slut!!!

Just kidding 414 all the way

[Pandemonium]

Originally Posted by 66d35

So is a good preamp.

The Digimax is nothing special, really kind of so-so and average. You already have some very nice mics, you don't really need any more. You do need a very much better preamp/interface to bring out the best in the mics you already have.

Andy

I mean, i get your point. You're correct. Thats why I said, i'm planning to upgrade preamps and converters at some point. The problem is budget.
A good preamp will cost me around 1000 usd. I have a 828MKII, so to take advange of the new preamp, i'll need to upgrade converters. All this will cost me around 2500-3000 usd in total .
A work-horse mic will cost me less than 1000 usd. I can use both the U87 and the New mic, and have a 2 signal quality recording.

I'm not sure the noise from my recordings is coming from the Digimax. I will have to make some tests. What's true is that the noise is present whenever i'm recording with my sdc's, on quiet sources. Thats not the case with my dynamics, or the U87.

[lakeshorephatty]

I have a pair of km184's and a 4050.

The "self noise" in either mic is approximately nil with a good preamp.

I like the km's on most things.. percussion yes, overheads no... Definately better for the acoustic guitar than the 4050 but not as good for overhead duties.

I adore the 4050 as a "supplimentary mic" it will never lay unused in a session for me, its just to middle of the road solid on a lot of things... BUT it doesn't really headline or become a feature, except perhaps on piano.

On the other hand the KM can really be a feature mic, but on the wrong source its DEADLY.. so i can see them sitting in certain sessions but on the other hand being the magic ticket for a certain guitar, or toms, etc..

I don't know if that helps at all!

Russell

p.s. out of the league we are talking about here, but my "worth its weight in gold" mic is the CM7-GT with M7 capsule.. I could record an album with it.. it makes me look very good!

[edcampos]

Out of the 3 you listed I would, without a doubt, buy the 414. I have a pair of 414 B-XLS and a pair of KM-184. I hardly ever use the 184 unless I'm running out of options. I am actually selling the 184s soon (feel free to PM). Someone suggested you buy a KM84. You can pretty much disregard that, as it is a completely different mic. It wasn't one of the ones on your list However, some credit is due to the poster (TRS, I believe) who suggested that mic, as it is wonderful. if you can actually get one of those, then I would say DEFINITELY buy it. It doesn't sound very similar to the newer 184, but it is everything the 184 wishes it were. Good luck with your search.

Again, 414 for me.

Ed

[river]

The 4050 is often referred to as a poor man's u87, so it will be similar and easy to pair with the 87. A firned borrowed mine last year for an acoustic mic shootout, which included a u87 and a 414, as well as SM81, Schoeps (don't know which model). The 4050 was the most natural sounding to our ears. I use mine for acoustic, strings, vocals, percussion, tenor & alto sax.