Tuning kick above or below the bass... YEAH RIGHT!

[ben_allison]

I'm trying to work out ideas about tuning the kick to relate to the bass. Some people suggest picking whether you want the kick to sit above or below what the bass will be doing for a particular song.

It sounds like a great idea, but isn't it a bit ridonkulous? It's practically impossible. The idea of trying to keep the kick away from the bass makes no sense at all (to me at least). I mean, the bass isn't stationary, and is going cross the kick's territory at some point.

Consider a song in G. You decide to tune the kick to E (41hz). But E is also the relative minor for G... the bass will most likely be playing it -- a lot. Or, let's say you have a song in E, so you tune the kick up to play A... same problem B is no better. Not if the goal is trying to keep things away from each other.

Any note that makes sense is going to be in a chord that will be played, and a note the bass will visit at some point.

It seems to me the best thing you can do is just tune the kick to the key of the song, and have it work with the bass, as a singular unit. It seems like this would form a better foundation than something a bit more arbitrary.

Think about it: there's really only a 40hz window in which you can place the kick's fundamental (40-80hz). Outside of that, it's either too deep to have cut, or too high to have power.

Ideas?

[Kiwiburger]

I believe you are confusing 'tuning' with 'mixing'.

Tuning a drum to a pitch that meshes nicely with the key of the song is a smart move. A kick drum has a high noise component, but it does have a recognisable pitch.

Mixing the kick and bass is about relative loudness and use of frequency range - only slightly related to the tuning of the drum. Regardless of how the kick drum is tuned, you can always adjust the level, relative to the bass, and you can apply eq to cut or boost a spectrum of the timbre.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by ben_allison

I'm trying to work out ideas about tuning the kick to relate to the bass. Some people suggest picking whether you want the kick to sit above or below what the bass will be doing for a particular song.

It sounds like a great idea, but isn't it a bit ridonkulous? It's practically impossible. The idea of trying to keep the kick away from the bass makes no sense at all (to me at least). I mean, the bass isn't stationary, and is going cross the kick's territory at some point.

Well, everything affects everything in a mix, so even isolating kick/snare is a theoretical thing because the balance between say vocal and snare will be as important as the kick/bass relationship.

You're right though, a mix is never a static thing but the main part of the sound will be the musical interplay of the tracks and EQ will be mainly about the timbre, it can't change the actual parts being played.

But on the other hand, when you listen to a Bob Clearmountain mix you'll hear a fantastic paradox of glue/separation- especially in the kick/bass Dept. So obviously there HAS to be a way to do it.....

[Jules]

Originally Posted by ben_allison

It seems to me the best thing you can do is just tune the kick to the key of the song...(edit)

...Ideas?

Well... IMHO you can get yourself in trouble with 'note tuned' drums in some situations as they can start give a beating effect as they bend very slightly away from the pitch against of similar octave instruments, (like a bass gtr) - this can sound downright bad..

Best tweak it by ear..?

Good topic

[macrae11]

For me anyways, the tuning of the kick drum has very little to do with pitch. There is a frequency, which is different for every drum, that it is going to sound best when tuned to. If that note happens to be an A I'm not going to compromise the tone of the kick to tune it to a song in Eflat.

I think when talking about whether the kick is "above" or "below" the bass has more to do with EQ than with tuning. For example if I want a really thick bass tone, I might carve out some 60-80 Hz on the kick drum to make room. Then boost a little 90-100Hz to make it punchy.
Or conversely, if I want a giant booming kick drum, I might give it a bit of gain at 60 Hz, and cut a bit of low off the bass. Then boost the bass at 100-120 Hz and 800-1000Hz to give it some more growl.

[Kiwiburger]

The resonant frequency of a drum shell is fixed - which is why they tend to sound best at one particular pitch. But there is still a lot of room for specific tuning.

You can also 'tune' your drums by using varispeed, Melodyne, or other pitchshifting tricks. Samples are easy to tune. ANd it's not necessarily a matter of tuning to the root note of the key - just that some pitches will work and some won't.

It still has little to do with whether the kick sits under the bass or over it. Some artificials subs can always be added to the kick to make it sit well under the bass. Whether a keyed sinewave, or an 808 sample or a sub-bass plugin.

[dbbubba]

Kicks don't have enough pitch duration to have a real note.
If they do then I wouldn't think the sound would be that proper anyways.

Snare drums usually don't have enough pitch duration to matter.

Toms are tuned diatonically and a well tuned kit should match into any "normal" key.
There are places where a tom might be dissonant sounding, but toms don't really ring at a true, steady state pitch for that long.
They pretty well are a falling pitch if anything when tuned correctly.

I actually have tuned a track via VSO to match a few tom hits before, but it has rarely been an issue.

The point people have been discussing about EQ'ing the bass below the kick is really somewhat ridiculous because a good sounding bass and a properly tuned kick drum should sound fine without much EQ at all.

If they don't fall into the proper range/position in a mix on their own then EQ won't help that much.
EQ isn't really a tire iron that you can use to beat things into position.

[vernier]

For perfect clarity, pan the kick hard-left, and bass hard-right ..gives the effect of surround.

[Kiwiburger]

Originally Posted by vernier

For perfect clarity, pan the kick hard-left, and bass hard-right ..gives the effect of surround.

That doesn't solve the real problem - just hides it. Until your mix is heard in mono. Which it will.

Those Beatles tracks where that worked really well - they were tracked and mixed properly in mono to start with. The stereo mixes were a bit of an afterthought.

[Adagio12]

I recorded a friends High-end DW kit a few months ago and his kick and toms had their resonant key frequencies stamped on the shells.
This made adding a touch of extra harmonic oomph with Waves Rbass a no brainer.

[dbbubba]

He was kidding.

Most of the Beatles stuff that is separated out has the drums and the bass in the same channel. It is generally the right channel, too.
There are few cuts in the Sgt. Pepper era with the bass separate of the drums.

[Kiwiburger]

And people say the mono mix of Peppers is the one to have. I got a DVD with both mixes on it, and i'm not so sure. I like the quirky stereo mixes I grew up with.

[joeq]

a two-headed bass drum should have an indefinite pitch. That's really the whole point of it. It's spread out and does not occupy a specific note the same way a bass guitar does.

if you took a tympani and laid it on its side and attached a pedal to it and played it as your kick drum, it would produce a definite note that you could easily harmonize with (or arrange to avoid ) the bass line.

I've never tried it but I would imagine it would sound perfectly stupid in a rock setting.

tuning toms to notes, I can get behind. I like my kicks and snares to be more like explosions than pitches.

At any rate this "problem" seems to be a problem only on paper. We all do this all the time, don't we? Bob Clearmountain may do it better than most of the rest of us, but we do this with every mix. The OP seems to be arguing an "idea", a "theory", and does not even offer it from his own personal experience ( such as: "I tried to EQ the kick and it sounded bad when the bass went to the relative minor")

Rather the thread is presented as: "logic tells me this should not work".

Logic tells us the bumblebee cannot fly, as well.

I have not personally experienced this supposed "impossibility" in keeping the kick above or below the bass in a mix, though I have experienced what Jules refers to, problems that arise when people try too hard to pitch the drums.

Maybe I shouldn't have read this thread. Maybe now I won't be able to place the kick away from the bass. Maybe we will be like the cartoon characters who only fall when they become aware of the fact that there is nothing underneath them.

[Joram]

In my experience and to my knowledge, the most dominant tone in a bass guitar sound is not the fundamental but often the first harmonic (as it is with guitar). Compare a bass guitar with a double bass and you'll notice the difference. In jazz I tend to put the double bass under the kick, in rock and pop the lowest dominant tone is often from the kick.
One should chose to place bass and kick in the spectrum depending on the role the play in the arrangement. Sometimes you place away bass and kick from each other, sometimes gluing will do the job.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by ben_allison

I'm trying to work out ideas about tuning the kick to relate to the bass. Some people suggest picking whether you want the kick to sit above or below what the bass will be doing for a particular song.

It sounds like a great idea, but isn't it a bit ridonkulous? It's practically impossible. The idea of trying to keep the kick away from the bass makes no sense at all (to me at least). I mean, the bass isn't stationary, and is going cross the kick's territory at some point.

Consider a song in G. You decide to tune the kick to E (41hz). But E is also the relative minor for G... the bass will most likely be playing it -- a lot. Or, let's say you have a song in E, so you tune the kick up to play A... same problem B is no better. Not if the goal is trying to keep things away from each other.

Any note that makes sense is going to be in a chord that will be played, and a note the bass will visit at some point.

It seems to me the best thing you can do is just tune the kick to the key of the song, and have it work with the bass, as a singular unit. It seems like this would form a better foundation than something a bit more arbitrary.

Think about it: there's really only a 40hz window in which you can place the kick's fundamental (40-80hz). Outside of that, it's either too deep to have cut, or too high to have power.

Ideas?

You're misinterpreting what the whole bas/bass drum thing is about. In a big full mix you can have either a really deep thumping kick OR a really deep subby bass. Can't do both unless you are willing to sacrifice your mix headroom - even then it wont sound good. It has nothing to do with harmonic tuning of the kick drum.....more to do with mic placement and subsequent (eq) processing.

[ben_allison]

Originally Posted by Kiwiburger

I believe you are confusing 'tuning' with 'mixing'...Regardless of how the kick drum is tuned, you can always adjust the level, relative to the bass, and you can apply eq to cut or boost a spectrum of the timbre.

I'm well aware of the difference. I just thought I had read (somewhere) that people advocated trying to establish separation via tuning. Maybe I misread. My opinion would be that you separate via mixing, not tuning. I guess I wasn't clear...

Originally Posted by dbbubba

The point people have been discussing about EQ'ing the bass below the kick is really somewhat ridiculous...EQ isn't really a tire iron that you can use to beat things into position.

Yes and no. You're not going to change the "fundamental" or anything. An EQ just boosts amplitude at a given frequency, it doesn't pitch-shift. In that respect, I agree. But clearing out room for pieces of the puzzle to fit together by sculpting frequency response is ridiculous? It might not be crucial in jazz, but good luck getting by in a thickly layered modern rock composition with no EQ, especially in the low end.

Originally Posted by joeq;

At any rate this "problem" seems to be a problem only on paper...I have not personally experienced this supposed "impossibility" in keeping the kick above or below the bass in a mix, though I have experienced what Jules refers to, problems that arise when people try too hard to pitch the drums.

I wasn't talking about separation in a mix, and how bass notes could eff-up your EQ kick, or an impossibility in defining clarity in the low end of your mix. I'm saying I thought I had read, here and there, people advocation trying to tune the kick so as to achieve separation from the bass. I might have misunderstood what they were saying.

My opinion would be that separation is a mix thing as most of you are saying, and not a note thing.

Originally Posted by narcoman;

You're misinterpreting what the whole bas/bass drum thing is about...It has nothing to do with harmonic tuning of the kick drum.....more to do with mic placement and subsequent (eq) processing.

Right. Exactly. 100% agreed, and didn't say anything contrary.

I was simply asking if anyone else had heard of "tuning" as a method of helping in kick/bass separation. My point was that it's more or less useless and that separation is the result of mixing. I left out the "separation is the result of mixing" part because I was restricting the question to tuning.

Sorry for the confusion, and many thanks for the replies!

[river]

I agree with many of the EQ suggestions regarding creating unique frequency based space for the kick and bass for seperation. A couple things I also do are to high pass the bass and kick at 30Hz to reduce subharmonic clutter between the two, and also to pan the bass slightly off center, like 3 to 6 percent, can really help the two pop through. I've never asked a drummer to tune a kick, but certainly have heard beating between the bass and floor tom, nauseating at its worst, and demands tuning.

[6dyslexicelephnt]

Originally Posted by macrae11

For me anyways, the tuning of the kick drum has very little to do with pitch. There is a frequency, which is different for every drum, that it is going to sound best when tuned to. If that note happens to be an A I'm not going to compromise the tone of the kick to tune it to a song in Eflat.

I think when talking about whether the kick is "above" or "below" the bass has more to do with EQ than with tuning. For example if I want a really thick bass tone, I might carve out some 60-80 Hz on the kick drum to make room. Then boost a little 90-100Hz to make it punchy.
Or conversely, if I want a giant booming kick drum, I might give it a bit of gain at 60 Hz, and cut a bit of low off the bass. Then boost the bass at 100-120 Hz and 800-1000Hz to give it some more growl.

Yes I think people mean in the frequency spectrum when the talk above and below in terms of kick/bass. Tuning drums to certain notes is a seperate thing that's related.

The way I picture it, is usually you don't want things to be in the same freq range and same place in the stereo field too much or it will create mud. If you make the kick and bass occupy mostly the same freqs (I don't recommend this) but you pan them far apart, you wont have serious problems with muddy overlap

here is my advice. imagine a 3d cube. up/down is freq range. R/L is stereo field. Front/back is apparent distance which is a mixture of level in the mix and amount of reverb. If you think about your mix like this, and consider each of these variables, each source will occupy a flattering little blob inside your cube without bad overlap and your mix will sound natural and great!

[Mr. Z]

It depends on the kind of music you're working on. There are cases in which you would tune sampled drums. Like tuning an 808 kick to the song pitch/key so that it doesn't clash. It's also difficult to combine 808s with bass lines, so many of the above mentioned eq considerations are important.

[marcan]

For me kick/bass relation is mainly managed thanks to hpass, compression and edition.

[jmcdaniel_ee]

You can also slightly duck (fast attack and release) the bass guitar with the kick. Even a staccatto bass note lasts longer than a kick (assuming you use some kind of dampening). You may want to set this up before massive EQ cuts in the bass--you may get both to live somewhat happily together.

[marcan]

Originally Posted by jmcdaniel_ee

You can also slightly duck (fast attack and release) the bass guitar with the kick. Even a staccatto bass note lasts longer than a kick (assuming you use some kind of dampening). You may want to set this up before massive EQ cuts in the bass--you may get both to live somewhat happily together.

It never did for me. It just killed the attack of the bass (for me).
I prefer to compress the kick and the bass together and to edit the bass just before the kick. It lets more space before and after the kick while letting the attack of the bass .
Definitely more work but better result .

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by Kiwiburger

The resonant frequency of a drum shell is fixed -

Much like a guitar body.

That's why heads can be Tightened? or Loosened?
I think the shell is more the timbre. Like a maple shell
will usually be brighter than most birch shells

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

EQ isn't really a tire iron that you can use to beat things into position.

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

Kicks don't have enough pitch duration to have a real note.
If they do then I wouldn't think the sound would be that proper anyways.

Snare drums usually don't have enough pitch duration to matter.

Tell a jazz drummer that and watch the smirk.

The fact is, in rock, that's pretty much true because you typically don't tune the top and bottom head in unison. The discord between the heads fight each other and results in a quick decay - more thud than note. Typically in jazz, the heads are tuned closer to unison, reducing the "fight" and increasing the decay and sonority. Also, jazz kicks are typically tuned much higher than in rock and very often tuned to a discernible pitch. But, kicks in lots of jazz are used differently - more like a punctuation than foundational rhythm, so the sonic difference from rock kicks works. It would sound funny in typical rock beats.

But for rock or jazz, more often than not, a snare and toms tuned to pitches that work with the song sit much more nicely in the mix than otherwise.

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by mappee

Today the kick and bass combo seems to favor the kick adding oomph to the bass. It depends entirely on the type of music as to how the interplay of bass/kick is portrayed.
Some I know in the pop field tend to put the kick on top of the bass as of late. The bass being eq'd in the lower register and the kick voice slightly higher. A good seperation between the two, but in combination it yields a very solid bottom for the song. Tuning well I......just give me a solid thud.

Listen to Peg off Aja for excellent interplay between bass and kick. They never run each other over. You never hear that in today's pop, sadly. You could just trigger the kick off the bass notes and be done with it. I've even seen the kick key a gate on the bass for sloppy players.

[Mixerman]

Originally Posted by ben_allison

I'm trying to work out ideas about tuning the kick to relate to the bass. Some people suggest picking whether you want the kick to sit above or below what the bass will be doing for a particular song.

It sounds like a great idea, but isn't it a bit ridonkulous? It's practically impossible. The idea of trying to keep the kick away from the bass makes no sense at all (to me at least). I mean, the bass isn't stationary, and is going cross the kick's territory at some point.

Consider a song in G. You decide to tune the kick to E (41hz). But E is also the relative minor for G... the bass will most likely be playing it -- a lot. Or, let's say you have a song in E, so you tune the kick up to play A... same problem B is no better. Not if the goal is trying to keep things away from each other.

Any note that makes sense is going to be in a chord that will be played, and a note the bass will visit at some point.

It seems to me the best thing you can do is just tune the kick to the key of the song, and have it work with the bass, as a singular unit. It seems like this would form a better foundation than something a bit more arbitrary.

Think about it: there's really only a 40hz window in which you can place the kick's fundamental (40-80hz). Outside of that, it's either too deep to have cut, or too high to have power.

Ideas?

You're taking it too literally. I've never actually tuned a kik drum based on the key. It's not about key where the kik drum is concerned. It's not about a note. It's about deepness of tone.

As to the bass, yes, the bass notes change, which makes the fundamental frequency change, but in general, a decision needs to be made. Is the kik going to sit below the bass or is the bass going to sit below the kik? It depends on the song, the key, the recording, and the genre. But at some point, if you're going to have good separation between the kik and the bass, rather than a bunch of mud, a purposeful carving of low-end territory will have to be performed. This decision is best made at the recording stage.

Clearly the kik and the bass have other higher frequencies to them. But the low end of each instrument must take up their own space. This isn't something to be argued with. It's not something to be proven or disproved. It's how it works, and in particular, it's what separates the men from the boys in mixing--how they are able to deal with the low end.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

[u b k]

i love it when a kick hits and, in addition to its own juice, it feels like the bass comes at me just a tad harder as well, like it blooms just a bit to let me know it means business.

serious fine tuning of faders, comp, and low end eq are required, but the payoff is sweet.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[AlphaDingo]

EQ isn't really a tire iron that you can use to beat things into position.

You're just not trying hard enough.