POOR BOSE, THEY ARE GETTING SUCH A BAD RAP ON GEARSLUTZ

[Alex Specht]

I have been looking into some esoteric speakers for some experimental Live Sound. Specifically for a keyboard rig.

The Goal, Stereo sound out of a single speaker for Gigs!

I have looked through Gearslutz, and as soon as someone even mentions Bose, the first reply is No Highs, No Lows Must be Bose.

Then Buy Other Sound Equipment.

Then, "they dont have balls" Etc.. Etc... Etc...

I have first hand experience of the crappy sound of the L1, L2 systems, but the concept seems ideal.

Why doesnt someone use the same concept, but with good components and wood?

Last year I found a pair of Bose 901 IV and bought them from an old widow for 100 bucks. I cut them all apart and rewired them to run as a single stereo speaker, and shoved them in a 12 space rack. I put 500 watt MOSFET amp to them, and the rig is well known buy many sound guys and band members in the Area.

As you can imagine, they sound lousy, but they are loud, and work well when I run my leslie effect to them.

I am suffering from carrying this monster around, and the phase problems has gotten the best of me so I am looking for a new rig...

I would like to get a Yamaha Sound Projector, and Modify it, perhaps using the bose drivers, and my PA amplifier. Or making a speaker box that looks like the L1 and putting the 901 drivers in there.

[Alex Specht]

Is there a way to use Magnaplaners for Live?

[initialsBB]

Stereo sound from a single speaker in a live situation? Can the audience even hear that?

[steveo42]

Originally Posted by Alex Specht

I have been looking into some esoteric speakers for some experimental Live Sound. Specifically for a keyboard rig.

The Goal, Stereo sound out of a single speaker for Gigs!

I have looked through Gearslutz, and as soon as someone even mentions Bose, the first reply is No Highs, No Lows Must be Bose.

Then Buy Other Sound Equipment.

Then, "they dont have balls" Etc.. Etc... Etc...

I have first hand experience of the crappy sound of the L1, L2 systems, but the concept seems ideal.

Why doesnt someone use the same concept, but with good components and wood?

Last year I found a pair of Bose 901 IV and bought them from an old widow for 100 bucks. I cut them all apart and rewired them to run as a single stereo speaker, and shoved them in a 12 space rack. I put 500 watt MOSFET amp to them, and the rig is well known buy many sound guys and band members in the Area.

As you can imagine, they sound lousy, but they are loud, and work well when I run my leslie effect to them.

I am suffering from carrying this monster around, and the phase problems has gotten the best of me so I am looking for a new rig...

I would like to get a Yamaha Sound Projector, and Modify it, perhaps using the bose drivers, and my PA amplifier. Or making a speaker box that looks like the L1 and putting the 901 drivers in there.

I used a set of Bose 802s (The professional version of the 901) for my keyboard lounge lizard act for years and they worked fine.
At the time (70s-80s) there wasn't too many choices for compact gear that sounded decent.
I drove them with an old Crown amplifier and it worked great for my keyboards and female vocalist.

They suffered from foam rot which Bose fixed but even still the driver components are crap but the plastic case was indestructible.

Back then groups using TrAX (ie:pre-recorded music) like choirs and gospel groups would often have Bose 802's and for that environment, and considering portability, they sounded ok.
Funny thing is, they sounded better at PLAYING music rather than CREATING music. They were also ok for vocals.

Today there are so many choices that there is no reason to go Bose.
The JBL Eon system is very nice.

If you're thinking of using Bose drivers, inspect them for foam rot before you start your project.
Also there are so many better choices, why bother?

[Alex Specht]

Originally Posted by initialsBB

Stereo sound from a single speaker in a live situation? Can the audience even hear that?

Good Point... Let me explain, In any live situation, the audience will be hearing the sound out of the PA anyway which presents a piano as a very widedy panned sound, and Leslie as almost a stereo tremolo.

But when on stage, the performer and the other musicians should hear the keyboard as they are an instrument, and not a CD background track. A surround sound speaker will more closely represt an acoustic piano, or leslie than a stage monitor will.

Originally Posted by steveo42

I used a set of Bose 802s (The professional version of the 901) for my keyboard lounge lizard act for years and they worked fine....
Also there are so many better choices, why bother?

Thanks for the info, I dont have my lounge lizard act down yet, but its coming along ;)

I have some JBL MR speakers, but I would rather have a separate output for the keyboard, like a guitar player or bass player prefers to play through their amp, not the PA. I have to be versitile.

[EarMeter]

as a former Bose Employee, I think the company makes good product. however, I think they are strictly consumer, most enjoyed by people who dont know better. They use propreietary technology that is designed to make setup and enjoyment "easier" for their customers. Most of it is very innovative, but not necessarily for the engineer-minded individual. 9 out of 10 bose products dont even allow you to adjust bass or treble, stating that "we did that work for you" which I always kind of thought was bull.. but anyway

If you are looking to hear your mix through consumer speakers, try them out. Keep realistic expectations, and remember that its not necessarily marketed as a reference speaker system.

[EstateMatt]

Originally Posted by Alex Specht

I have been looking into some esoteric speakers for some experimental Live Sound. Specifically for a keyboard rig.

The Goal, Stereo sound out of a single speaker for Gigs!

[christmasjones]

why not the groovetubes amp?

I heard this in a larger sized room and it was amazing the stereo imaging

http://www.groovetubes.com/K3_P1655.cfm

[mdme_sadie]

Bose make decent car stereos :D

The problem with Bose from my experience only of this stuff only is that that they seem to be designed to sound good at low levels, once you crank the volume the sound looses it.

[Alex Specht]

Originally Posted by christmasjones

why not the groovetubes amp?

I heard this in a larger sized room and it was amazing the stereo imaging

K3 @ Groove Tubes

THat is Unbelievable!

I wonder where I can demo one in the SF bay area

[Jim Kerr]

Originally Posted by Alex Specht

THat is Unbelievable!

I wonder where I can demo one in the SF bay area

Holy freaking Crapola...this is it! A MID/SIDE SPEAKER!!!! I'm buggin. Its the complete opposite of M/S mic technique. Just backwards, with the sound coming out rather then going in. Duh!! Amazing. Wow.

[numrologst]

Originally Posted by Alex Specht

Is there a way to use Magnaplaners for Live?

Interesting that you would bring up magneplanars. We have been thinking about picking up a pair of magnepan speakers for our lounge... It's been a while since I have heard them, but I remember them being pretty kick ass speakers.

I don't know how they would fare under your situation.

[numrologst]

wow that K3 looks pretty damn cool. Looks like something I have to get... I wonder what amp would be cool with that...

[Benjy King]

What the f*** is this K3 thing? Great idea...if it works. Wow, gotta' hear one. Pretty cool idea.

[numrologst]

reminds me of my old rotary wave, but looks like it's constructed way way better.

[numrologst]

oh damnit... That k3 isn't what I thought it was... I thought it was a rotating speaker... guess not though. What the hell is it?

[cornboy7x]

Originally Posted by Alex Specht

But when on stage, the performer and the other musicians should hear the keyboard as they are an instrument, and not a CD background track. A surround sound speaker will more closely represt an acoustic piano, or leslie than a stage monitor will.

if your drummer cares that much tell him he is being a bitch and as long as he can hear what you are playing that should be enough.

i play synth in a band and all i use is a powered pa speaker. it works great. dont over complicate things.

[initialsmm]

Originally Posted by Alex Specht

I have looked through Gearslutz, and as soon as someone even mentions Bose, the first reply is No Highs, No Lows Must be Bose.

Then Buy Other Sound Equipment.

Then, "they dont have balls" Etc.. Etc... Etc...

I have a pair of the 901 MKII for my home stereo set up, I don't mind them at all. I do have to use a subwoofer and xover with them though because they do lack bass in a big room. When I lived in a small 1 bedroom and played any bass heavy music sans subwoofer my neighbors complained regularly.

I used them at first with out the 901 Series active eq and thought they sounded ugly, when I added that box it made a bit of difference. I know nothing about the circuitry but it seemed to make things sing much more. My amplifier for these step children is a Fisher 500-C which in itself has a like-able sound.

Lastly they look nice with my mid century modern furniture (Knoll, Mies, Bertoi). So the favorable aesthetics improve their sound quality.

...though I would love to have a pair of original Klipschorn Jubilee speakers with a pair of vacuum tube monoblocks...


So there you have it some praise for Bose!

[numrologst]

Magnepan > Speakers > MG 1.6

these are just so damn slutty

[roxxon]

Bose 901s are one of the most unnatural-sounding speakers ever produced.
During the 1980s their replacement drivers sold for $9.00 each wholesale!
Their are 18 of those small speakers in a pair of 901s, the lousy little EQ...
Considering the absurdly high price of the 901s...
I guess owners of those speakers mus have mostly been paying for the speaker cabinets and cool-looking stands.

The one impessive feature of the Bose 901 speaker line?
Those speakers can handle a shit-load of power!
However...
My friend manage to blow up a pair of them.
He borrowed my old Phase Linear Series Two 700 power amp and my old Hafler pre amp, to use with his beloved Bose 901s.
The party was a real rocker.
Party visitors were constantly turning the stereo up and down, all night.
I had two fans on my amp, they ran pretty hot when pushed for extended period of time.
That amp could really draw a tonne of current, when pushed...
Nominally rated at 360 watts per chan. rms at 8 ohms...

The 901s handled a lot of power that evening, after the party...
I was helping my buddy clean up, along with a few of his other friends and his girlfriend.
He bragged that his speakers could handle "unlimitted power."
I had warned him earlier, before the party to be very careful never to crank up my amp.
Now with a lot of booze in him he was bragging that his old 901s were the greatest speakers ever created.

I got tired of listening to his ranting, his 901s sounded alright... Nothing special even with my amp and pre amp, which were both very high end pieces at the time.
I told him that my amp could blow his speakers...

To make a long story short...
He accepted the challenge and wound up with all of his speakers blown.
A couple of his drivers even caught on fire.
So much for the Bose 901s mythical "unlimited power handling."

That's exactly how I know about the wholesale cost of the 901's replacement drivers!
LOL!

If you are using Bose speakers...Real music doesn't sound that way.

[Bryan Talbot]

And don't you just love those two-minute long mini-infomercials on the Discovery channel.

[chrisj]

Using lots of cheap little speakers is great- in a line array, and when they are cheap, and when you can live with the frequency response limitations :)

If the Bose line source tower things were really really cheap, that would be kind of cool- of course they're not. And the traditional Bose is basically a cluster**** of non-imaging from silly placement of drivers. Plus, EQing does NOT REALLY overcome the frequency response of drivers- the only exception I can think of was Bag End's 'ELF' system which used a bass boost that exactly countered the rolloff of a driver in a too-small box, and then put a driver in a too-small box :) as long as the speaker didn't explode, you were good :)

If Bose were humble they might get less hostility, but a lot of the things they do don't actually work with pro audio. It's like selling a mastering program that throws on a load of reverb- basically NOBODY professional will like it, because it's got too many major faults.

[roxxon]

I have used the Bose 802s before, they were part of a few house P.A. systems at some clubs where we played in the early 1980s.
They sounded ok.
Without a sub, they are pretty "plain jane" at best.

Bose 801s and 901s are not a high end speakers, performance-wise.
No one in their right mind would consider them a reference speaker or monitor.
They sound so unnatural, it's almost frightening.

Some people love them, different strokes for different folks...I guess.
You can buy some great, speakers or monitors for the price of the pair of
Bose 901s or 802s.

It scares me a lot that so many people think of them as high-end speaker systems.

A fool and his money...

[loopy]

Originally Posted by roxxon

I have used the Bose 802s before, they were part of a few house P.A. systems at some clubs where we played in the early 1980s.
They sounded ok.
Without a sub, they are pretty "plain jane" at best.

Bose 801s are not a high end speaker, performance-wise.
No one in their right mind would consider them a reference speaker or monitor.
They sound so unnatural, it's almost frightening.

Some people love them, different strokes for different folks...I guess.
You can buy some great, speakers or monitors for the price of the pair of
Bose 901s or 802s.

It scares me a lot that so many people think of them as high-end speaker systems.

A fool and his money...

I used the 802 back in the 80's as well. They weren't too bad considering the size. The EQ was a must though and they required tons of power to get going. A friend on mine used a stack for his acoustic bass and it sounded pretty good with the EQ attached.

The 901 are not by any stretch of the imagination high end speakers.
In fact Allison had a set of speakers back in the 80's that looked similar and blew the 901's out of the water.
The Allison Fours.

I used to sell high end equipment back then when I was in college studying Electrical Engineering.
The Bose 901 got returned all the time although some people swore they were great.
Different strokes for different folks I suppose.

[theblue1]

I am (distinctly) not a fan of Bose gear in general (the berm-jumping car suspension looks kinda interesting, though!) but I do know some very knowledgeable, experienced, performing pros who swear by some of their exotic small venue systems.

[Alex Specht]

Originally Posted by numrologst

oh damnit... That k3 isn't what I thought it was... I thought it was a rotating speaker... guess not though. What the hell is it?

The idea is that by using the difference of the Left and Right Channel, and sneding that to the sides, that it will create a stereo "Effect"

Im not sure whether this would actually be a stereo image though. For instance if you stood directly in front of the speaker and played with the pan nob on a mixer would you actually hear the sound going left to right?

I found this thread at Cakewalk forums. The guy actually figured out the circutry and physics. Portable speaker for live stereo: Groove Tubes SFX

"OK, so I see there are no takers so far. While folks are just slowly browsing by, I figure that I'd might as well mention that you can do this trick with just about any cabinet. Just get an open-back cabinet and stick your favorite cabinet on top as the "main" cabinet, with the open-back cabinet turned sideways (so the "front" on the open-back cab points to the left). Then drive the main cab with the L+R signal (the "mid" or mono signal), and drive the sideways-facing cab with the L-R ("side") signal.

You get the mid and side signals by running your main Left and Right stereo source through an M/S encoder/decoder (it turns out that the same process can be used as an encoder or a decoder... if you know simple algebra, it's easy to prove). If your source is a VST host, then you can do it by simply throwing Voxengo MSED on the final output buss.

Otherwise, it's a farily easy circuit to cobble together. You can order a nice, cheap kit to build one for yourself here from PAiA. The design is low-noise and pretty solid and is approved by the losguy (here's the schematic... it's simple... not much to go wrong). Just put the encoder module between your main Left and Right line outputs and your stereo power amp. BTW, that page has some nice explanations of M/S miking as well.

[idrinkalot]

i had a pair of bose headphones i got for free and they were fantastic. i wouldn't pay $150 for them but they sounded pretty nice.

[Alex Specht]

Does anyone understand the physics behind the M/S miking technique and how it could apply to the concept for the stereo speaker?

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by Alex Specht

Is there a way to use Magnaplaners for Live?

wouldn't do it. too vulnerable.
underestimated technology for sure, but live??

[big country]

Originally Posted by Alex Specht

Does anyone understand the physics behind the M/S miking technique and how it could apply to the concept for the stereo speaker?

I have a guitar speaker I have been working on that has two speakers
facing opposite direction Kinda like a dual diaphragm Mic Omni Cardiod
figure 8 with different cross overs and what not .

pretty much need to screw in one speaker little more wiring and its done

kinda got stuck messing with cross overs and got board of the project



an old pic btw.

its got three cross overs ( I made one of the cross over's)

cross overs are kinda cool for getar amps