Why do the sounds from my MotifES sound flat?

[Tempest19]

Now I dont mean flat as in a tune issue. I mean the sound very unexciting musically.

Having said that I'm tracking them straight into my 002.

How are you all tracking your Motif sounds, DI or with a nice pre?

In February I will have some money to spend on gear. I need to sort out this pre situation so any suggestions would be great.

It seems no matter how I process the strings or pianos from the Motif they just seem pretty boring and often narrow. When hearing Scott Storch records where he's used the Motif patches, mine sounds completely different.

Thanks

[kingofswing]

Thats not Scott Storch, but rather his engineer(s) who run the tracks through rediculous amounts of processing before it sounds the way it does.

FWIW i find my ES6 to sound very nice and warm running into my Fireface. It sounds nice even through it's own headphone output.

Just out of interest, what are monitors are you using???

[Tempest19]

Originally Posted by kingofswing

Thats not Scott Storch, but rather his engineer(s) who run the tracks through rediculous amounts of processing before it sounds the way it does.

FWIW i find my ES6 to sound very nice and warm running into my Fireface. It sounds nice even through it's own headphone output.

Just out of interest, what are monitors are you using???

Thats almost hit the nail on the head. My buddy couldn't understand why I wasnt satisfied with the recorded sounds as he address them 'full' and 'warm' What I dont hear is any presense or sparkle!

My engineering skills need a lot of work but I seem frightened to over process sounds with multiple instances of EQ or compression or even limiting in stages.

I'm monitoring on some poor Alesis active monitors. Though I dont think thats whats impairing my ears. When making A/B comparisons to songs I know have used the motif, the same patches I record just dont sound the same.

Even during composing, the sounds dont seem to have much life to them and it can be quite off putting. The only thing I love about the keyboard is those silky 88 keys. It plays well!

Are you tracking many patches in stereo, such as pianos or some of the synth pads or mono and copying them with short delays?

[deuc647]

It is true, the motif sounds very flat, so you can use the onboard effects to shape your sounds, if you want more instant gratification, get a korg module, they do sound very, processed but i love their sounds. Dont be afraid to process instruments, it will set you apart from everyone else who just uses the presets, BTW, i love presets, they are good starting grounds.

[nukmusic]

my ES sounds great. as mentioned above, try using the onboard efx or adding efx during mixdown.

[numrologst]

personally I have never been much of a fan of using romplers in the recording studio. I do think there are some decent sounds on the motif, fantom, etc...

But they strike me more for a live tool... I really like the capabilities on stage, but just can not bring myself to use it in the studio.

You can do some cool stuff with them if you have a tape emulator box, compressors, eq's, effects, etc. Heavy processing is sometimes needed to make these boards into studio tools

[vixapphire]

Originally Posted by nukmusic

my ES sounds great. as mentioned about, try using the onboard efx or adding efx during mixdown.

i agree with this. i chose the ES rack over the fantom, etc. because it has the most "real"/unprocessed/true sounding instruments of all of them, at least to my ears. i believe it's important to start with something of very high quality and accuracy, and proceed to demolish it with creative signal processing from that starting point.

[HoPMiX]

I can only use it in program mode. where all the dsp is dedicated to one sound.
otherwise it does sound lifeless.
anyone notice how good a yamaha sales rep can make those things sound at namm..
its amazing. i think a great player can make any board sound awesome.
me... not so much

[vixapphire]

Originally Posted by HoPMiX

I can only use it in program mode. where all the dsp is dedicated to one sound.
otherwise it does sound lifeless.
anyone notice how good a yamaha sales rep can make those things sound at namm..
its amazing. i think a great player can make any board sound awesome.
me... not so much

if you want to be shamed for your lack of prowess with this thing, play the onboard demos. they're unbelievable.

[Tempest19]

Originally Posted by vixapphire

if you want to be shamed for your lack of prowess with this thing, play the onboard demos. they're unbelievable.

They do sound very good, I'll give you that.

I'm not really sure what I'm expecting. I just, well, I'm so used to hearing processed sounds. I suppose I could set up some plugins on a track so I'm monitoring through them on the way in to give me some inspiration.

Any suggestions on pre's which will spice up the sound?

Like I said, I'm going to have a little money soon and have been checking out the A Designs P-1. My buddy from university just got an Avlon 737 and though I didnt get to test it much, the DI on that thing sounded awesome on guitar and bass!

[vixapphire]

i go straight into the computer via sp/dif, so as to keep the sound as clean and uncolored as possible. perhaps you're just pining for something a little more processed out of the box, as others have suggested?

one thing that is very true of the motif's sound; it's very clean. seems not to be what you're looking for - perhaps the fantom rack-box would be more up your alley; it's a very "hot" and snazzy machine and may likely take you into different turf than the arguably more conventional-sounding motif.

[qubi]

Originally Posted by HoPMiX

I can only use it in program mode. where all the dsp is dedicated to one sound.
otherwise it does sound lifeless.
anyone notice how good a yamaha sales rep can make those things sound at namm..
its amazing. i think a great player can make any board sound awesome.
me... not so much

Cheers to that.. besides the HORRIBLE programming interface of the motif -rack- (and almost every other every yamaha... anyone have a FS1R) I've been muti-timbral'ing for years on my virus and roland 1080 for years, but when it comes to the motif, it's strictly play-midi- and bounce to audio.

FWIW the motif, as mentioned is very real, and cut's through beautifully. Never thin or flat. For best results, i run it through api 512 pre's and an avalon 747 for overall EQ and slight comp. The built in FX on the Motif are your friend, but maybe adjust the reverbs/delays to suit the track. Also, sometimes, the built in FX tend to overload/distort on some patches, so watch for that. other than that, I don't think the motif is a bad rompler at all, infact, its prob. one of the best i've heard.

best of luck

[vixapphire]

it'd be nice if they made the editor work on OSX rather than only on windows. i had a roland xv 2020 half-rack unit with the worst frontpanel interface ever, but it had usb and a killer software editor that made it even easier to use than the higher-end rolands with the huge lcd's.

[fross]

There's nothing flat sounding about the Motif.
The Motif is very open and beautiful, if not more than the Rolands and Korgs.
And the on-board effects are hi-fi as well.

All keyboards here go through (2) Millenia HV-3Ds, to keep them clean and wide open.

Are you trying to "dirty up, make more "gruffy" or "warm up" the sound?
That will require a bit more work, different pres or EQing.

[fross]

Originally Posted by HoPMiX

I can only use it in program mode. where all the dsp is dedicated to one sound.
otherwise it does sound lifeless.

[Tempest19]

Originally Posted by fross

There's nothing flat sounding about the Motif.
The Motif is very open and beautiful, if not more than the Rolands and Korgs.
And the on-board effects are hi-fi as well.

All keyboards here go through (2) Millenia HV-3Ds, to keep them clean and wide open.

Are you trying to "dirty up, make more "gruffy" or "warm up" the sound?
That will require a bit more work, different pres or EQing.

Yeah, I suppose I am trying to dirty the sound a little.

I'm not completely hating on the Motif here. It plays very well. Its just that some of the sounds seem to lack character. Maybe they need a little drive through a pre with some bite!

I dont seem to be getting much width either. When tracking the 'full grand' in stereo to PT, I'm constantly manipulating the width.

[u b k]

for the same reason your drums don't hit as hard, your bass doesn't rattle as deep, and your vocals don't sound as crisp: you haven't learned how to write, perform, record, and process sounds to sound as good as the guys who are at the top of the game.

you cannot compare a dry synth patch to a sound in a mix; your perception of the sound in the mix will be completely skewed by everything else that's going on. deep bass, sparkly hats, and lush verb will make the synth sound huge, even though the odds are that if you were in the mix room and hit solo on the other guy's motif track it'd sound tiny and bandpassed.

context is everything. write the song, mix the mix, *then* tell us how your motif sounds.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[Sonic Nomad]

I got the Motif XS6 a couple months back after owning a MOTIF Rack ES and all I can say is WOW!
I'm finding it harder and harder to use softsynths nowadays with great synths like this.

Hardware rocks.

[SighBorg]

I've owned 3 yamaha romplers and all of them share the same basic sound.

It's not so much a flat or restricted frequency response as it is a lack of depth. I dont know if it's the dacs or whatever, but the sound has been with yamaha atleast since the CS6x.

The filters and FX have a plasticy quality to them as well... though the resonance has an interesting rock'n bite (esp on the BP & HP filters).

If you play to it's strengths things get cool though.

Try an RS7000 if you want the Yamaha-"flat" sound to the x-treme!

IMO: Roland Phantom has a lot of depth to them. Korgs Tritons seem to instantly get a vibe across once you drop it in a mix.

[Peter Oxford]

“IMO: Roland Phantom has a lot of depth to them. Korgs Tritons seem to instantly get a vibe across once you drop it in a mix.”




Hello there,

I know what you mean, and it’s a good, solid, fair comment. I’ve found that to be quite ‘voice sound’ related, and really dependant on what you select. Many sounds seem to have 'several layers' to them which adds greater depth and often width.

If you go for ‘popular voices’ in particular, then 'the real soul of the sound' is right there instantly. And yes they do sound great!

Good for Live Playing and Easier Recording?


It’s not so much that the Motifs are in any way bad sounding, because they are not, they do sound really great too. But to get the best out of the instrument I would say that you have to work somewhat more, to get 'the sound you really want' from an individual voice you select.

By analogy, to my mind the basic sound sets are great, but I think of them as a ‘flat white canvas of sound’ that the artist needs to colour and shape to get ‘their ideal sound’ which for me, working as I do, enables me to set my sounds distinctly apart from those of others.

As I zero everything before each Recording Session, no two sounds are ever the same, even of the same voice.

They are individually personalised, and especially created for each and every track.

Good for Recording and Creative Individuality?




“It seems no matter how I process the strings or pianos from the Motif they just seem pretty boring and often narrow.”




Hello there too!

Out in the Studio, among the keyboards, I have a Motif and I find it a really useful tool personally.

I’m wondering if you are looking for samples with far more layers super-imposed?

Perhaps you like the sounds of Bert Smorenburg’s Piano and other sounds?

Could the available libraries or something here might be the answer?

Viewing list of forums - MotiForum. Discuss Motif issues with people all over the world. - Forums powered by UBB.threads™

Bad Mister in particular is extremely helpful.



Irregardless, what you describe is not my experience. But I’m wondering if you are doing things rather differently from me.

My approach is to take time to get the absolutely the exact sound I want from the instrument itself in the first place.

Long before doing any additional final processing in the Digital Recording System.

The basic sounds are good solid quality sounds, but usually, somewhat removed from being 'precisely the sound' I want.

To that end I find the multiple E.Q. etc. sliders on the Motif a great boon. With them, I find I can usually tweak the sound, to get the quality of tonality and resonance etc I am earnestly seeking. And to be honest, if you are good, you will want to work with sounds until you really get them right. Won’t you?

This to my mind, is where all the most important work is done. More time spent here getting this initial response of the instrument, exactly how I feel it should be for the particular track, is far better than trying to correct or adjust something that is to some degree inappropriate afterwards.



Then, with a great sound from the start, I go out analogue to an analogue desk where I will commonly add additional processing. To my ears, all this Digital equipment sounds rather more to my personal taste, after going through a traditional analogue desk. (Or stage).

Please understand I am not against Digital equipment, it’s just that historically, many Digital designs have not been as well implemented as they should have been. Designers and Manufacturers have often taken shortcuts that have resulted in a clear Digital Sonic Signature. I particularly detest any sense of sterility.

So it is any audible sign of a Digital Signature that I seek to redress with the analogue stage. Others no doubt, will hear things differently.



But think about this....

If you want more ‘presence’ as you were saying, then it is likely that you will be adding E.Q. after tracking to get it. This can often raise the noise level along with the additional presence you are seeking to aquire, and so for me, I would prefer to add the treble E.Q. going in, if anywhere.

I get the sound I want first! I can always cut back the treble a little if required, and thus, simultaneously reduce the noise floor as I E.Q. To my way of thinking this is a neater trick to pull, than going the other way.

And treble is never overdone on any of my recordings, its like seasoning to food, a typical E.Q. Curve for me, would be high at the Bass end in a smooth continuous slope to the treble end reducing all the time. (This is of course a generalisation). But 60% energy to the Bass end as a typical guide.

(Where Piano’s are concerned I often find certain particular E.Q.’s to be especially favourable with often the best results, coming with completely flat E.Q.’s and flat E.Q.’s that very gently roll off towards the bottom end).



In any case, by the time the sound is at the point where I will track it, it’s really there.

I think of all this, especially in regard to the setting up of the instrument tweaks themselves, as being the equivalent of mic placement at the very sweetest spot possible, in the old fashioned traditional way to get good recorded sound.

And the analogue stage of additional processing, a traditional method (that is in effect a pre-emptive countermeasure) to address what I regard as the remaining negative issues and artefacts involved in Digital Recording Systems that designers have yet to properly address. (Thankfully, they are getting there)!



Have you thought about a new Recording Interface?

It may be well worth it for you now.



Best Regards!




P

[Tempest19]

Originally Posted by u b k

for the same reason your drums don't hit as hard, your bass doesn't rattle as deep, and your vocals don't sound as crisp: you haven't learned how to write, perform, record, and process sounds to sound as good as the guys who are at the top of the game.

you cannot compare a dry synth patch to a sound in a mix; your perception of the sound in the mix will be completely skewed by everything else that's going on. deep bass, sparkly hats, and lush verb will make the synth sound huge, even though the odds are that if you were in the mix room and hit solo on the other guy's motif track it'd sound tiny and bandpassed.

context is everything. write the song, mix the mix, *then* tell us how your motif sounds.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

Lol, I sent you a song a lot of months ago and you said it was great!

But thanks for your input. I'm not trying to blame the equipment here. I just find the dry sounds uninspiring.

Mind one thing I noticed, you dont get many patches for your money!!!

[Tempest19]

I think I've possibly fixed the problem.

Now when writing or tracking the keys, obviously I'm sitting behind the keyboard which as at the other end of the room to my monitors and not pointing directly at them.

I hunted out a pair of pc speakers and I've plugged them into the headphone socket and bam! The sounds are alive again.

It seems I wasnt hearing how great the sounds can be because I was too far away from the monitors.

I was so inspired I started writing a new song!