Drum Mixing Techniques From the Pros

[dangoudie]

This has been a fantastic thread not least because it confirmed some of my own experiments which I had been unsure about. Like using downward expansion on kick rather than a true gate and going easy on the bottom end of the modern rock kick EQ.

Special thanks to Mr Meeker.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

If you have any brains you would realize that JAMES MEEKER just gave you info that (if you didn't already know the stuff) is worth a lot.
A WHOLE LOT!!!!

Those are tips and methods that I have seen guys take years to learn... if they learned them at all.

The EQ stuff alone is worth the "price."

I have seen very few good mixers that DID NOT do the majority of what is one that list.

I can read that post and know that James can get a good drum sound.
I'll be honest here...
Getting a good drum sound separates the men from the boys.
There are other things, too.
Drum sound makes or breaks the deal.

I don't know, I think I have brains and over 20 years experience, and since some will just take James's suggestion as gospel, some are dangerous, especially the eq .
Like cutting the mids 6-15 db on the kick, if the drum was recorded with a D6 you now have absolutely NO mids. Often cutting the top on the room mics is NOT good.
My general eq suggestions are to start by finding the mid frequencies that need to be lower and cut them, use you ear. Dont look at the eq dial to see what frequency
you're adjusting, USE YOUR EARS. It may well be that you wind up using James's eq suggestions but maybe not, also it only matters how the drums sound as a whole, you will make adjustments based on what your hearing from the entire kit, and then how that kit sits in the track.
What Sigma mentioned about compression as eq is right on. And what James said about nailing the kick and snare compression first is right on, except I would add the same for whatever you feel your going to use on the rest of the kit. Another thing is to experiment with where the compressor will live in the chain. I tend to put the eq in front of the bass drum compressor if I'm adding low end to the kick. Also some of us are using
multiple mics on each drum, so what you're looking for from the kick and kick out mic will be VERY different, same with the snare top and snare side or under[ugh] mics.
If you need more attack, parallel compression is your friend. Sometimes if you have
too much bleed from the hat you might want to mult out the snare, dont process one channel very much, maybe just some eq and the other channel gets the whole shebang. Sometimes if your using verb on the drums you might want to use the processed channel as the send to the verb and not the unprocessed, unless that's
the sound you want. BTW for rock drums, you can mix in a little of the infamous gated verb just to add some more bang. As for mixing in samples, I think only if you can't get what you need from the tracks you have, and then since I think Steve Slate is a good guy, use his.

[dbbubba]

I meant that these hints would be very helpful if you didn't have a clue about where to start with getting drums.
Obviously these suggestions and tips are not the gospel for every drumkit and cut you record, but it is a bunch of really good starting points.

You ultimately have to always use your ears.

I'll tell you one thing...

I have had to get a band mix up without any sound check way too many times in the past.
Because I use some general things almost every time I mix I can have the drums pretty well knocked out before downbeat of the first song.
I have used this method mixing people like B.B. King, James Brown, The Blues Brothers original line up and about forty major label rock bands in the late '80s/early '90s.
In fact, short of things like D.I.s where you can't know the level you'll be seeing, you can have the entire band mix up before they play.
It might take the first :30 to get things completely under control and you might tweak for the first song or two.
Of course, this is only going to happen if you have system that is set up properly.
It can be done in the studio, too.
I had to do it too many times!

In fact, with a good drum kit provided by a company who supplies backline equipment I know that I can have the drums pretty well ready before downbeat.

Some sh*t just works!
Sure, there is room for variation, but there ARE a few general truths.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

I meant that these hints would be very helpful if you didn't have a clue about where to start with getting drums.
Obviously these suggestions and tips are not the gospel for every drumkit and cut you record, but it is a bunch of really good starting points.

You ultimately have to always use your ears.

I'll tell you one thing...

I have had to get a band mix up without any sound check way too many times in the past.
Because I use some general things almost every time I mix I can have the drums pretty well knocked out before downbeat of the first song.
I have used this method mixing people like B.B. King, James Brown, The Blues Brothers original line up and about forty major label rock bands in the late '80s/early '90s.
In fact, short of things like D.I.s where you can't know the level you'll be seeing, you can have the entire band mix up before they play.
It might take the first :30 to get things completely under control and you might tweak for the first song or two.
Of course, this is only going to happen if you have system that is set up properly.
It can be done in the studio, too.
I had to do it too many times!

In fact, with a good drum kit provided by a company who supplies backline equipment I know that I can have the drums pretty well ready before downbeat.

Some sh*t just works!
Sure, there is room for variation, but there ARE a few general truths.

Danny I know you know live sound and recording can be VERY different. I have no problem with much of what James said, and it's obvious he's knowledgeable. But
in my experience too many of us are turning knobs and not even listening to what we have up. When I track drums my goal is to make them sound killer without ANY compression or eq and then use what I need in the mix. I would NEVER tell anyone not to compress their overheads or to only use parallel compression on the room mics.
Actually I would tell everyone to try all of these techniques especially on a learning session so that you can know what those techniques do to the sound, especially whenever the drummer is different you will have to do different stuff.
I already mentioned a few things that would offset James's tips. I remember at one of the post AES gearslutz parties Michael Wagner played a mix he had just finished that had no eq on it, at least thats what I remember him saying, and it sounded killer.
I would probably have had less of a problem with this if some of the points were a little
less specific.

[James Meeker]

Good points, but let's be honest--if you are having to ask for drum tips you need something more constructive than "use your ears." People know to use their ears.

It's like training a doctor and telling them "just keep giving them medication until the patient gets better." Not too helpful for an up and comer!

At the "tip" stage I think people are looking for framework and starting points. From there they'll make adjustments and use their own mind. After trying out a couple hundred "tips", seeing what worked, what flopped and so on you get an idea of the CONTEXT of different techniques.

Yeah, cutting 15 db at 400 hz on a kick drum recorded with a SM57 is probably not the context of that technique. However, in about 99.9% of my mixes I've found that cutting lower mids at least a little bit on the kick was where it was at. The amount is the context and personal choice/ears part. The reason the amount was so radical is I see a lot of younger guys just out of school that get gun shy when it comes to EQ... they'll be aiming for a Slipknot sound and pulling out 2 db at 350 hz... not gonna get you there....

Engineering is simply knowing WHAT you got, WHERE you need to go, and HOW to get there. That's why tips/techniques/experience is useful--it's a guidepost to get you there. Ultimately your ears tell you where you start and when you arrive, but your sensibility and style determine which path you take.

Perhaps we should break a tip section off for different stages of drum recording:

Setup and Tuning
Mic Choice and Placement
Preamp Choice and Gain Structure
Mixing and Editing

Because every stage is important to the final product.

[BobbyPeru]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

Sampled cymbals?
Like crashes?

That always sounds sh*tty and fake!
Every cymbal hit I have ever heard on a sample is some guy just whacking a cymbal.
Drummers rarely hit them that way when playing to a track.

If you record decent drummers (the ones that you'd spend time working hard on) with decent drum kits there shouldn't be a cymbal wash problem.

I think that any attempt to make a great drum kit sound better than it does in it's natural state is a waste of time that produces a fake sound.
Didn't the OD the cymbals on that QOTSA record? The one with the hit. "No More Tears?"
They sound really detatched from the rest of the kit to me.
A friend gave that CD to me as an example when I started mixing his record.
I couldn't figure out why the cymbals sounded "wrong" to me.
I found out from another friend who knows the guy that recorded it and he told me.

Both drum sound replacement and doing things like OD the cymbals is a noble idea that occurs to all engineers at one point or another in their career.
You try it and then in retrospect you realize that all of the effort yielded a crappy, un-realistic sound.

Explain to us why "realism" in a recording project is paramount...To me anything can work for anything. Its just a matter of the right time and song.

Bobby Peru
Milwaukee, WI

[James Meeker]

Oh and by the way nothing that comes out of my mouth is gospel!

Nothing in audio engineering is gospel. I've seen stuff I've thought was plain stupid succeed brilliantly, and the most well-laid plans fail gloriously.

It isn't important to be omniscient in this field. I think determination and good attitude are more important than knowing everything. And getting a second opinion from someone you trust.

And lots of Mountain Dew. Very important.

[JB872]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

Good points, but let's be honest--if you are having to ask for drum tips you need something more constructive than "use your ears." People know to use their ears.

It's like training a doctor and telling them "just keep giving them medication until the patient gets better." Not too helpful for an up and comer!

At the "tip" stage I think people are looking for framework and starting points. From there they'll make adjustments and use their own mind. After trying out a couple hundred "tips", seeing what worked, what flopped and so on you get an idea of the CONTEXT of different techniques.

Yeah, cutting 15 db at 400 hz on a kick drum recorded with a SM57 is probably not the context of that technique. However, in about 99.9% of my mixes I've found that cutting lower mids at least a little bit on the kick was where it was at. The amount is the context and personal choice/ears part. The reason the amount was so radical is I see a lot of younger guys just out of school that get gun shy when it comes to EQ... they'll be aiming for a Slipknot sound and pulling out 2 db at 350 hz... not gonna get you there....

Engineering is simply knowing WHAT you got, WHERE you need to go, and HOW to get there. That's why tips/techniques/experience is useful--it's a guidepost to get you there. Ultimately your ears tell you where you start and when you arrive, but your sensibility and style determine which path you take.

Perhaps we should break a tip section off for different stages of drum recording:

Setup and Tuning
Mic Choice and Placement
Preamp Choice and Gain Structure
Mixing and Editing

Because every stage is important to the final product.

Great post and I appreciate your tips regarding EQ. Usually when someone mentions how to EQ something around here the flamethrowers come out and some says "use your ears". It happens all the time. GS is "Mixing 101" for a lot of us and these EQ starting points you laid out are helpful I find. So thx.

[Protools Guy]

Originally Posted by JB872

Usually when someone mentions how to EQ something around here the flamethrowers come out and some says "use your ears".

Either that or they say, "Do a search".

[china jam]

It's unfair that a couple of you have had James justifying his post when all he's done is listed mixing techniques that he considers useful to pass on.

So what if you don't agree with them all! The OP has gotta learn for himself what he likes and dislikes and James has given him more then useful starting points.

There's some right dicks on GS!

[James Meeker]

No worries here, I just didn't want anyone to get the impression that I was trying to pass off anything as the 'final word' on audio. Since there really isn't a final word on something as subjective as music production anyways. One man's piercing hell is another man's recording nirvana.

Plus I know how engineers can be... a weird, argumentative and cantankerous bunch prone to "microphone" measuring against one another. Everyone always knows that you could have made a better record than that other dude. Heck, sometimes you might even be right!

I don't worry about that stuff. The only thing I really care about is learning how to make a better record, doing it faster and having more fun while doing it.

There are definitely too many cool things to record to waste energy fussing over someone else's opinion of sonic bliss (no matter how ill informed and stupid hahaha).

[Empire Prod]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

There are definitely too many cool things to record to waste energy fussing over someone else's opinion of sonic bliss (no matter how ill informed and stupid hahaha).

[DeanMartin]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

Very true!

It's amazing that Dan Spitz posts here because there are two reasons why I made music my career:

1.) Metallica
2.) Anthrax

This is totally cool!

Nice to meet you James. So kind of you to help others. A wonderful trait.

Pro Ac studio 100's and an MC-2105 mac for me.
Meaning:
1-monitors that translate the same at low and loud listening levels.
2-$2 or $20,000. Pick one, it doesn't matter.
3-If it sounds punchy at quiet levels it crushes when blasted.
4-Single horrortone for mid check balance or similiar.
5-If you blast just once, wait an hour or so for your ears to re-set or your waisting your valuable time on earth. Ask a hearing Dr. to explain.

[Space Station]

Here's an old page full of basic drum recording tips which may be useful:

Tips for recording drums link here

1. Use two room mics on the kit as well as conventional close mics and overheads- one in front of the kit for a bass drum heavy sound (positioned 50 cm in front of the bass drum at head height- move closer or further as is required) and the other above the drummers head pointing to the snare (for a snare heavy sound)
2. Unless its the desired effect dont over compress bass drum, snare and hi-hat microphones when recording. Save it for the mix
3. Remove any cymbals or toms that are not being used so as to avoid extra resonance
4. When using two microphones on the snare (one on top & one underneath) remember to check/reverse the phase on the bottom microphone. Avoid having the microphone's too close, the top mic should be 2-3 inches up and out aimed at the centre of the head. The mic under the snare should be aimed at the centre/snare band and no closer than a couple of inches
5. When a microphone is placed too close to the head, it doesn't pick up as much of the "crack", it catches more of a timbale sound and will sound unnatural. Listen to the snare in the room as the drummer is playing - and then listen to the snare on tape - are they the same ? If not, they are probably too close
6. Experiment with the microphone beneath the snare, if it's too close to the snare band it wont sound natural
7. Use the bottom snare microphone as an FX send (a spring reverb always works for me!)
8. If the snare is buzzing find the cause of it and retune it, usually it's the toms. If that doesn't work try gaffer tape over the snare band (bearing in mind to stay close to the rim)
9. Between 5khz and 6khz is always a good frequency to EQ/boost on snares
10. If you want a fat snare sound, keep the bottom skin low pitched - regardless of the pitch of the top skin
11. If you want a more cutting snare sound, tune the bottom skin up in pitch and keep the top skin lower in pitch than the bottom
12. Use two bass drum microphones, one close to the beater (for attack) and the other just outside the outer skin(for depth). If you mix the two microphones together to create one killer bass drum sound, remember to check the phase. (check Little Labs Pro Audio Tools for tools to help with this technique)
13. Movement of the microphone as little as a few cm in the bass drum can make big changes. Closer to the inner head results in more definition and less "boom" from the drum. Careful not to get too close to the beater or the mic amp will overload and distort and/or you will damage the mic. Wooden beaters are my personal favourites as they give a good natural definition
14. If you're recording on less than 24 tracks, try to keep the amount of tracks to a minimum. If you take care whilst setting up the sound, and by mixing 'overhead', tom and room mics together into one big stereo pair you will be able to achieve great drum sounds and never use more than five tracks - (taking into account a separate track for kick, snare and hats). If you are unsure of your sound/balance you can always bounce once you have your take recorded and you are happy with the sound
15. Record any clicks/loops or guide music to tape before you record so you don't have to wait for sequencer to catch up if doing any drops and to minimise any sync problems (especially if using Ataris or drum machines- sync it back up when you have finished recording). If your clicks/guide music are on tape, you can experiment with the vari-speed whilst recording. If the song is too fast for the drummer try slowing it down as it may help them achieve a better feel. I do this a lot as I like the way it affects the sound and helps to iron out any laziness in the delivery
16. When bouncing the toms, ride them up in the fills. Louder is always better and if later on you find its too much use a compressor (often a nice effect in breakdowns)
17. If the hi-hats are too loud in the natural balance (i.e in the live room) try making the drummer use a lighter drumstick (or nylon tipped) on hats and a heavier stick on the snare.
18. If you're using clicks on a sequencer - make a simple percussion pattern and even a bass line/tambourine as opposed to a brain numbing vibe killing blip. (Quantized of course)
19. Get the best sound you possibly can before recording - always think like your mixing and give the drummers a good headphone balance- check and ask if they want or need something louder in their headphone mix
20. Be adventurous with the low frequency, especially with room/ambient mics and kicks
21. If possible quiet cymbals are always best for recording, so the older the better. Raising them high above the kit works best, might look funny and the drummer might complain, but the sound is better as you will have less spill on tom mics. Jazz drummers and Buddy Rich fans will fight you on this one!
22. If like me you like compressed sounding drums but don't like the way it always affects the crash cymbals- overdub them later on and then bounce them into your stereo room/overhead track. (Dave Grohl often records like this)
23. Spend time making sure the tuning of the drums is as good as possible. If the drums naturally sound good then getting them recorded is a breeze. Once you have a rough sound together record a minute or so, then play it back whilst vari-speeding both faster and slower, so as to check whether the sound of the drums are better up or down in pitch
24. Assuming you're working on analog tape, record drums loudly and don't be scared to rock the meters so as to guarantee maximum tape compression
25. If you're working on analog tape with SMPTE (and are in-sync with sequencers) prepare 3 takes for each rhythm. All three sharing the same SMPTE time (i.e starting from 0 min on each take). By having the same sync/smpte reference you will be able to edit between takes and still be in sync (as long as you replace the same sections from one take to the other i.e Verse 1 on take 1 for Verse 1 on take 3 (and your edits have to be clean of course !)

For this technique to work there are a few simple things to be aware of :

* Make sure the drummer plays the same arrangement on each take
* Choose the best take and then replace relevant sections. Don't be overly fussy about it, but you will need a good drummer!
* Use natural places to edit from - snares, the start of fills etc. Try and avoid downbeats (especially if you are playing/recording with other loops that are being triggered on the downbeat)
* Be careful when editing after a cymbal (listen out for the decay) it might sound Ok at low volume or on the close mics but when you compress the room mics and overheads, the decay becomes longer and more audible
* Set your sequencers SMPTE page correctly - most have a sensitivity threshold that can be adjusted (if your edits are clean you shouldn't have any problems). Some software/smpte synchronisers are more sensitive than others so experiment
* As you are recording make notes - as you have three takes you can make sure you get exactly what you need. If you've got it in two takes let the drummer know and let him go mental on the third take, you might get something extra

[Animus]

Originally Posted by Empire Prod

Here is an example of a modern hard rock mix in which the drums have no processing of any kind. All tones were achieved by using the proper source in the proper environment with proper mics and placements.

sounds great Empire!

[John Suitcase]

A lot of this goes to the question of what you're after. If you don't know what drum sound you're looking for, it's going to be harder to get something that works. Of course, there are situations where you just have to let the drums lead you, and try to get something as authentic as possible. But other times, you know that you want a garagey trashy sound, so you want to set up a mic or two with that in mind. You probably want to have the usual array of clean mics too, but if you don't have a good trashy room mic, it's hard to emulate it in the mix.

The same is true with regards to selection of drums, mics, etc.

As far as mixing tips go, use groups channels to your advantage. Lately I've been setting upa group for toms, one for overheads, one for kick and snare. Then a group where those are all combined together. I like to compress, eq and setup reverb or delay on the toms as a group, and having them on one fader lets you ride fills up easily.

I also setup a really crushed compressor (I like the free CamelPhat plug) on a send, then send a bit of each drum to it. Sort of like parallel compression, but the setuop is different.

Lastly, if you have a snare that just won't cut, try copying it to a 2nd track. On this 2nd track, set a super tight gate, that only opens for a few milliseconds with each snare hit. Limit it so the limiter lights on hard hits, but not all hits. Eq it to have a good amount of highs and high mids. Insert a reverb on this channel, a unique one that nothing else uses. Blend this signal with the uneffected snare track, and you can get something workable without fake-sounding samples.

[Podgorny]

Originally Posted by Space Station

24. Assuming you're working on analog tape, record drums loudly and don't be scared to rock the meters so as to guarantee maximum tape compression

Or distortion from overloaded input electronics.

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by vernier

So thats how they got Bonham's kit to sound so good.

Bonham's sound was in the wide open(no muffling or tape)drums and good tuning of them. Most of the sound was in the overheads, live room, and a bit of well chosen compression. Someone has outtake files up of the "In Through The Out Door" sessions, I would prefer that to many of the drum sounds on "modern" records!

[Beyersound]

Great tips James Meeker and Space Station. I agree with James that snares love plate verb, the middle plate on the UAD-1 EMT Plate 140 is great for this. It is cool when you drive some of the EMT Low eq and hi eq(which are pre reverb) into the verb and dial the center freqs to taste. This drives the verb in the frequency areas you want to enhance and has a much more profound effect than eq on the return. Space Station, great tip on the snare mic placement, to explain further, the timbale effect comes from the mic accentuating the funky, resonant mids when it is too close and resulting in higher rejection of the stick attack. There are no tuning rules, I would suggest the snare tuning method of the same pitch top and bottom and more wide open(if you must, maybe a 3/4" zero ring), this tuning eliminates most strange overtones(because you are not combining two different pitches) and accentuates the fundamental. I learned this at a Simon Phillips clinic 20+ years ago, and it has served me well live and in the studio.

[Empire Prod]

Originally Posted by Animus

sounds great Empire!

Very kind of you Sir!

[dbbubba]

Originally Posted by BobbyPeru

Explain to us why "realism" in a recording project is paramount...To me anything can work for anything. Its just a matter of the right time and song.

Bobby Peru
Milwaukee, WI

I'll explain to YOU why I regard a "realistic" sound as important in most cases.
I don't really think that YOU are a spokesman for any other people that need me to justify or explain anything.
If they want to argue or have me clarify my position then they can ask on their own.

There are "tools" that you develop over time that allow you to get a consistent drum sound in a timely manner.
Very little of my studio work over the years has allowed time for "experimenting" with finding the right sound for the right song.
I did my experimenting years ago and I know what will work in most cases.
I know what drummer I want to use, I know what type of kit to ask him to bring, I know what mics I'll use, etc...

To me the actual drums on the QOTSA record I mentioned sound good, but the cymbals sound dis-connected. The sound of the drums "confused" me from the very first time I heard them. It just doesn't sound "right" to me.
While I like their records A LOT, I don't like that drum kit sound.
For one thing it sounds really claustrophobic to me.

If it was the effect that they wanted to achieve then great.
It "works" for the effect that they wanted.
It allows for the GTRs to dominate the mix.
That is cool, but it is at the expense of the drum sound.

I don't view their work any differently than I view any other people's recordings or music.
They were some guys recording some rock music when they did that record.
They chose that way of recording the drums. It's OK. It isn't ground-breaking or anything new.
Their popularity doesn't make the sound any more valid than anyone else's approach.

Truthfully, I have heard songs recorded without cymbals AT ALL and I have recorded things that way as well. Peter Gabriel did a lot of stuff this way in the early '80s.
I have recorded drums and OD'd the cymbals in the past. I have recorded drummers playing pads that triggered MIDI kick, snare and tom samples with real mic'd cymbals.
I have gated drums to eliminate cymbal spill. I have raised cymbals.
I've tried a lot of stuff.
In the end... to ME... well recorded and natural/realistic drums sound best on rock-n-roll cuts. Stuff like Peter Gabriel sounded wonderful in the way he recorded without cymbals.

The sales of a record definitely doesn't serve as criteria for me to like or dislike the way any record is recorded.

[dwall]

I'd just like to put in my 2 cents and say that I always enjoy, and often learn something from James' posts, even when it doesn't really fit my style.

Regarding the tips, it's really great for people starting out mixing to have these kinds of pointers because it's never about "just cut here by this much". It's about relationships where everything affects everything else, so even within the kick, it's more like "cut here and here, boost here and here" etc..., so someone can go in and try those things and listen to the relationships change, and really get a sense of what the basic qualities of the kick sound like within its spectrum. As a beginner, just sweeping through listening to one frequeny at a time isn't quite as educational because you don't realize how they affect each other yet. The great thing about tips like these is if you don't like this approach, it still teaches you something very valuable about the nature and complexity of something as simple as a recorded kick drum.

Obviously, if someone is just doing stuff without listening REALLY HARD and without really paying attention to the effects of their actions, they'll never ever do good mixes by just telling them to use their ears. You have to tell them both things: "Try this, if you don't like it, why not? Don't ever do anything that doesn't sound good to you." Once you understand the relationships of all these different elements, you can do a better job of matching up what you hear out of the monitors to what you hear in your head (you also can better judge what's going to be possible based on the recorded material you've been given to work with).

[byrd62au]

James is a most helpful and generous man. I always save and print the things he takes time to post. I'm a musician of 25 years, never paid much attention to recording till the last couple of years when a friend asked me to produce his CD. I got bitten by the bug and now I haunt this place on a daily basis and hang out real engineers whenever they will let me. I learn best by watching others do but failing that I can follow written instructions. I sat down to practice a mix using a friends recordings the other day the sight of 8 channels of drums really intimidated me. I followed James's suggestions like they were gospel and they got me to a mix that sounded sweet and tight really quickly. The drums had been well recorded in a pro studio and they were good quality drums played by a seasoned player which, of course is most of the battle but my mix really brought out the good things. By the 3rd song the approach and method became more familiar and I started to feel like I had a sense of why I was doing the things I was doing and began to experiment more. Now I feel more confident I can mix a drum set next time so thanks James for your posts, you really helped me.
My friends liked my mixes so much they are paying me to do some more for them so it really was a case of "teach a man to fish"! This website is gold.

[johndykstra]

+1 on the kudos to James. As a newbie I will take some tips and run wit'em. I would just like to say that I tried the "kick drum outer shell" technique listed in tips and techniques and holy mary! thumbsupthumbsupthumbsup It's the sound I've been looking for, and with one mic no less. very happy.

[tonymission]

Im a hip hop/rnb engineer and 99.9% of the stuff I work in involves no recording at all of live drums (unfortunately) and I found this thread extremely useful. Obviously Ive had to make my own adjustments where needed, and James has stated this more than once, but there are a couple tips in there that I wasnt practicing that have definitely helped.

Im a new slut and wondering what took me so long to bookmark this site. I've visited it a couple times through links to specific topics of (Dogsonacid.com production forum) but the amount of experience here, I feel like such a noobie ... and Im 11 years in the game! Dan Spitz?!@?$% wow. lol

Amazing!

[Cabbage]

Originally Posted by Sigma

at -12 dB reduction a "gate" is still a "downard expander" just to get your sematics straight..i consider gate a "gate" when the sound is 90% and above reduced at threshold.

This is really OT, but your statement got me thinking about what the difference really is, and since I am sort of the academic type... Came to the conclusion that I don't agree.

When the signal is below the threshold of a gate it has a constant gain reduction (let's say -12dB). On the other hand, when the signal is below the threshold of an expander the gain reduction will be changing continuously (given that the input signal changes).

A gate preserves the dynamics of signals below the threshold, a gate will alter the dynamics below the threshold, well... that is what it does, and what it is supposed to do.

Oh, and thanks for the tips on drum mixing! They got me thinking as well, now I have some new ideas I have to try out...

Petter

[IzzyRock]

This is a another tip.


Sidechain a gate on the room mikes off the snare trackThat way you only get the room mics to open when the snare is hitting, so you can get a LOUDER room sound without having too much cymbals and stuff going on and "dirtying" your mix. If you still want room sound for the rest of the kit, leave another room track opened all the time behind the rest.

Send all your drums to a group and compress them a little, 1 - 2 db the most, low ratio, attack 10-20ms.. release 100-200ms For rock and metal mixes !

THis one you are gonna like it:
If you dont like your room sound, , do a room impulse on your existent room mike of a bigger room and compress it to death... then you can use tip #1 as well

Use a tinny bit of a snare sample along with your natural snare, Trust me its gonna add some punchiness end eveness to the playing ( you must feel and not hear the sample )

Listen to my myspace for some of my drum sounds i've got

[feckinedgit]

Hello all and excuse my intrusion .
I am a total newbee and admit much of the discussion on this thread is way above my head.

On the subject of keeping it simple , if your set up is simply individual drum mics for each Tom, bass drum, two overheads and snare , running through an analogue mixer with EQ /preamps but NO compression , reverbs or any other add ons, and into a cheap Boss digital recorder, any tips on how to get the very best from a very cheap and cheerfull setup?

I record my sons [one plays drums the other guitar ] and the recordings are mainly to allow them to experiment and write, but, they are keen to get the best sound possible with our limited kit and limited budget.

For "real" recording, we have an excellent local studio that we use, but being perfectionists, the boys are keen to get the best sound we can, even when the recordings at home are mainly to help with song writing and arranging.
They are a heavy rock/metal band - for the purposes of what we do, they play all the instruments, though for the real thing, and live they have a bass guitarist and rhythm guitarist.

The location of the kit is less than ideal in a wooden shed [large one] so, ambient acoustics could be better.

A few basic principles on mic placement, mixer settings [EQ really] to get a half decent rock sound .
I am under no illusion that I can get anything close to studio sound.
I`m aiming for something listenable that reflects the songs accurately.
It is also a great tool when it comes to studio work proper as they can let the engineer hear the sort of sound they are aiming for.

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by feckinedgit

Hello all and excuse my intrusion .
I am a total newbee and admit much of the discussion on this thread is way above my head.

On the subject of keeping it simple , if your set up is simply individual drum mics for each Tom, bass drum, two overheads and snare , running through an analogue mixer with EQ /preamps but NO compression , reverbs or any other add ons, and into a cheap Boss digital recorder, any tips on how to get the very best from a very cheap and cheerfull setup?

I record my sons [one plays drums the other guitar ] and the recordings are mainly to allow them to experiment and write, but, they are keen to get the best sound possible with our limited kit and limited budget.

For "real" recording, we have an excellent local studio that we use, but being perfectionists, the boys are keen to get the best sound we can, even when the recordings at home are mainly to help with song writing and arranging.
They are a heavy rock/metal band - for the purposes of what we do, they play all the instruments, though for the real thing, and live they have a bass guitarist and rhythm guitarist.

The location of the kit is less than ideal in a wooden shed [large one] so, ambient acoustics could be better.

A few basic principles on mic placement, mixer settings [EQ really] to get a half decent rock sound .
I am under no illusion that I can get anything close to studio sound.
I`m aiming for something listenable that reflects the songs accurately.
It is also a great tool when it comes to studio work proper as they can let the engineer hear the sort of sound they are aiming for.

as far as using what you have, follow the eq-ing techniques listed in James's first post as close as you can with your recorder. make sure you are getting a good signal into said recorder. your level on input need not reflect your end result mixing level, you want every track as loud as you can get it on the way in without clipping. i would place the kick drum mic just inside the port hole, pointing towards the corner where beater head and shell meet. close mics on the other drums should be about 3" off the head, out of striking distance, and pointing toward strike zone. overheads spaced roughly over the ride and hat, couple feet over crashes, making sure that distance to each mic from the snare is equal.

anything you can do to "deaden" up the sound of the shed would help. old couches, mattresses, etc.

if you're looking to add some gear to make what you have better, the first thing i'd like to know is what kind of mics you have. if your mics are solid, and maybe even if they aren't, a compressor will do wonders. presonus makes some affordable comps with presets so you don't have to know how to tweak them to get it sounding decent. hooking up a comp to a budget recorder could be challenging if you don't have inserts, but if you don't, you can always use a main out. solo the mic you want to compress and send it through the main out into the compressor, out of there onto a blank track on the recorder. use uncompressed original as an empty track to record other things. even if after drums you only have one empty track, you have enough to compress every/anything, just one at a time and record over originals.

hope this helps

[feckinedgit]

The mics are very cheap and cheerfull "budget" affairs - anything more frankly would have been a waste of money.
They dont sound too bad actually on initial use and I do think following some tips posted here, I can get a half way pleasing sound.
I would rather put money to studio time than invest heavily in a home setup.

The mics go to a behringer MX2642A mixer, then out to a Boss BR900 .
The Boss has only two track recording at any one time.
The main reason for mic-ing the kit was simply that the drummer wanted proper acoustic drums rather than electronic.

They like to play drums - rhythm guitar and overdubb the bass , lead and vocals. - its the way they tend to write songs.

I`m intrigued as to how to use a compressor - where does it fit in the mixer circuit?
Can you run multiple XLR`s through it ?

As I said..total newbee.


The band are here by the way..

MySpace.com - Circadian - UK - Metal - www.myspace.com/circadianmetal