Drum Mixing Techniques From the Pros

[absrec]

I think it has a lot to do with what else is in the mix. I've gotten great drums tones only to have to go back and undo what I did during tracking because I dialed in too much high end or low end. You gotta be careful with that for sure. The vocal sound can highly impact the guitar sounds which affect the bass sound which affects the kick sound, etc. This, of course, applies more to people that typically use the "track by track" approach rather than cutting everything live.

Anyway, I think James' post is a pretty damn good starting point. Yet one more validation that I'm not just a complete idiot.

-Aaron

[dbbubba]

You eventually learn your "go-to" tricks and get pretty close w/o having to "expiriment" a lot.

Some things just work and you use them every time.

[ahjteam]

My first REAL mixing job was when I had to mix a bands liveshow, record it and make it into a CD. The band played this mix of really soul mixed with funk and rock and eventhough they were all caucasian, they sounded really "black", you know what I mean The recording happened at an indoorfestival and band said that they needed 32 channels (like 12 for the drums, 2 for bass, 2 for guitar, 1 for sax, 4 for keyboards, 3 for vocals and 1 special mic for mouth harmonica and 6 channels for effect returns) but
A) They didn't have their own sound engineer
B) we had only 16 channels in the mixer
C) we had share the stage with this huge 14 member bigband
D) no real time to mic change the setup as there was only 10-15 minute changes
E) I mixed, SO...

We miced the drums with only TWO mics (one overhead and D112 on kick)! And I personally have to say that its one of the best sounding drumsounds I've ever mixed. Maybe not the punchiest ones, but it fit to that style very well. I guess the final setup was something like 1-2 drums, 3 bass, 4 guitar, 5 sax, 6-9 keyboards, 11 mouth harp, 12-14 vocals, 15-16 room... I had to record the whole thing to this 16-track fostex recorded and then mix it in a one day with Midas Venice with no outboard gear and then record it to this really crappy (~300hz?) computer line in, it took like 1 hour per song just to transfer it to the PC

I remember that the the sax was clipped already in the tracker and a bit too loud when the player blew it really hard (and I couldn't use a compressor to tame it as I had no outboard gear in use) and after I listened to it just a while ago, I can hear that there is a slight low frequency feedback coming from the vocal mics during the first few songs, but otherwise it sounded great all along, but its mostly thanks to the band - if the band wouldn't have had such ready stagesound, it would've most likely sound more horrible. I've learned a lot since then, but it was a really great project, too bad the band never got the CD as they never took my calls again after I contacted them and last update on their website was on december 2004 and I heard they disbanded shortly after that.

Here is a short clip, just in case you wanted to hear it

[plexisys]

+10

the kit and tuning is essential..we all know "fix it in the mix" was a joke and "getting it in the room" is our job.

Spend the time with the drummer and the producer getting the core drum sound from the drums.

Ahjtem:
On the Who's first farwell tour we used 4 mics for the drums. They sounded massive and clean.

[BLueROom]

I think James has a pretty solid base there. I would and do do a few things differently but overall he's a got it. I mainly don't agree with the point about not eqing or compressing the OHs. I do, almost every time ...unless the song isn't in the rock/metal/pop genres.

one thing about the snare: don't friggin choke it to death! I swear 80% of drummers come to the studio with the snare cranked so there is NO rattle. This will kill the tone of the snare and kill it's presence in the mix... especially in a rock mix.

+1 on the drummer being the sound of the drums. If you have a great drummer with well tuned drums, there is very little to do. duh

[Flymax]

All due respect James...
But to all the kids out there reading this...do whatever sounds good to you..
Low end...yes below 50hz can be what the kick drum needs..
Try squashing the piss out yer OHs!

[1979]

The thing I v'e noticed about "mono checks" is that mono should sound better or at least fuller, and the kick and snare should have more body than in stereo. This way you know even the distant mics a have a constructive phase relationship and are contributing to body of all the drums. I think too many people throw it into mono and say " well I don't really 'hear' a problem, and I'm gonna pan these anyway", when they should be saying OMFG! That's what well placed mics sound like!

To me the rest is just whatever, some people do different things, some people need 4-6k on BD, some hate it, some people compress individual drums other refuse to. There are too many variables to say "what next"

Just get a well tuned kit , a drummer that can hit, and some well placed mics, etc. Even a poorer room sound can be "worked" somewhat with mic choice/mic placement.

[James Meeker]

Wow, I get the impression that some people think I was suggesting to do ALL those tips at the same time. Not so. It was just some ideas that sometimes come in handy or general approaches that seem to bear fruit often.

By no means was that a complete list of stuff one could do (or not do).

The best techniques are those that are appropriate for what you have, and where it needs to go. And yeah, the better the drums are recorded the better (and easier) the mix is going to be.

[edcampos]

James,

great list! Thank you,

Ed

[u b k]

stick an r84 10' away from the kit and down low, crush it, use it as the glue.

get most of your sound from overheads and room mics.

balances are everything, more than compression, more than eq. having subpar monitors, and/or a subpar room to mix in, will make your job well nigh impossible. love 'em or hate 'em, ns-10's are incredibly useful for this job (mixing rock drums).

i find most guys do better when they start off mixing loud (85db) and getting quieter as the mix progresses, or starting quiet (60-65db) and staying there most of the time, with occasional checks at other volumes.

every 20-30 minutes put in a ref recording that vibes the way you wish your mix would and listen to a song at the volume you've been mixing, to reset and realign your brain. every 60-90 minutes, take a 5-10 minute break in another room, preferably a quiet one, to give your ears and brain a needed rest.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[Flymax]

James...its because you gave a lot of do s and donts...
Yes, I think there were a lot of good tips in your post but when it comes to eq, compression and overall technique on how to get a vibe, i think anything goes..

[ColourSurround]

Wow, above and beyond what I had hoped for in this forum, especially the first reply there. Awesome stuff guys, thanks again! Damn this forum is a brilliant place.

PiN

[dbbubba]

If you have any brains you would realize that JAMES MEEKER just gave you info that (if you didn't already know the stuff) is worth a lot.
A WHOLE LOT!!!!

Those are tips and methods that I have seen guys take years to learn... if they learned them at all.

The EQ stuff alone is worth the "price."

I have seen very few good mixers that DID NOT do the majority of what is one that list.

I can read that post and know that James can get a good drum sound.
I'll be honest here...
Getting a good drum sound separates the men from the boys.
There are other things, too.
Drum sound makes or breaks the deal.

[Space Station]

Dont worry about the sound..just use 'sound replacer' on everything. They're all doing it..from 'nevermind' to 'american idiot'

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

If you have any brains you would realize that JAMES MEEKER just gave you info that (if you didn't already know the stuff) is worth a lot.
A WHOLE LOT!!!!

Those are tips and methods that I have seen guys take years to learn... if they learned them at all.

The EQ stuff alone is worth the "price."

I have seen very few good mixers that DID NOT do the majority of what is one that list.

I can read that post and know that James can get a good drum sound.
I'll be honest here...
Getting a good drum sound separates the men from the boys.
There are other things, too.
Drum sound makes or breaks the deal.

i agree.. it's one large breathing beast..so many variables... such a wide frq response and resonant characteristics

[dbbubba]

You do have to be careful HOW you use this info because too much processing can make drums sound "disconnected."

Gating can make things be disconnected from the rest of the kit quite quickly.
It can make toms just appear at a point in space when they are played.

I can recall back in the middle of working day after day, month after, etc...
I had all kinds of gear to throw on drums, plus I had a studio partner that was good player and had a great drum kit (actually several kits.)
We tried everything, but I can always remember a time when I walked out into the studio and thinking, "Wait! The sound of drums out here in this room is POWERFULL and the sound in the control room is too controlled."

The cymbals in particular were totally different, but the way the entire room responded to the drums was different. We had all kinds of reverbs and stuff.

I figured-out that cymbals actually do sound like the do on OHs if you get on a ladder and listen up above the kit.
As a consequence I started trying mics out from in an effort to capture the upper mids of the cymbal work.
I quickly learned that this stuff got in the way of the other instruments (especially fuzzy GTRs.)

Back to the list JAMES graciously posted...
You can dink around with all kinds of ideas, but I can't tell you how many times at mix I was so glad that I had the basics covered.
If you have the close mic stuff done correctly you can build the ambience.
You can even pipe the mix out into room and play it through a LOUD and powerful p.a. cabinet and re-create the room stuff.
If the basic "stuff" isn't there then the sound is going to be "wrong" or a bit "bizaar" at best.
... and God knows how many times I have had to deal with jacked-up drums someone has recorded in a half-assed way!

[James Meeker]

Heh, here's one more tip gleaned from Charles Dye's "Mix It Like A Record" - use cymbal samples so you can have the cymbals at a good level without having your mix awash in overheads (typically avoiding the "I have too much high hat" syndrome).

That was probably the most interesting thing I found on MILAR. One of those "why didn't I think of that" situations.

For the record I rarely use trigger/samples. I came up as a hobbyist before that technology was very widespread to home users. By the time I went pro I didn't really need them unless the drummer had "issues" with their performances... or if the band needs that "triggered" sound. I just don't really care for the sound of sample replaced drums. I'll use 'em if its the sound I need though.

[ColourSurround]

Maybe it's just the layout of my brain but there is so much to comprehend sometimes. I never did get into samples either but I'm wondering, how exactly do you go about it? I mean, where do you get the samples, how do you integrate them into the mix?

I actually was an apprentice for an experimental jazz/rocker band down in Ottawa and the snare was sounding thin throughout the mix. What ended up happening was we brought in an oil drum (or well, something of the elk) and matched each snare hit with a hit on the object for a couple tracks. Really brought that snare sound to life. That's as familiar with sampling as I am, but it does seem like a cool technique.

PiN

[dbbubba]

Sampled cymbals?
Like crashes?

That always sounds sh*tty and fake!
Every cymbal hit I have ever heard on a sample is some guy just whacking a cymbal.
Drummers rarely hit them that way when playing to a track.

If you record decent drummers (the ones that you'd spend time working hard on) with decent drum kits there shouldn't be a cymbal wash problem.

I think that any attempt to make a great drum kit sound better than it does in it's natural state is a waste of time that produces a fake sound.
Didn't the OD the cymbals on that QOTSA record? The one with the hit. "No More Tears?"
They sound really detatched from the rest of the kit to me.
A friend gave that CD to me as an example when I started mixing his record.
I couldn't figure out why the cymbals sounded "wrong" to me.
I found out from another friend who knows the guy that recorded it and he told me.

Both drum sound replacement and doing things like OD the cymbals is a noble idea that occurs to all engineers at one point or another in their career.
You try it and then in retrospect you realize that all of the effort yielded a crappy, un-realistic sound.

[Space Station]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

Sampled cymbals?
Like crashes?

That always sounds sh*tty and fake!
Every cymbal hit I have ever heard on a sample is some guy just whacking a cymbal.
Drummers rarely hit them that way when playing to a track.

If you record decent drummers (the ones that you'd spend time working hard on) with decent drum kits there shouldn't be a cymbal wash problem.

I think that any attempt to make a great drum kit sound better than it does in it's natural state is a waste of time that produces a fake sound.
Didn't the OD the cymbals on that QOTSA record? The one with the hit. "No More Tears?"
They sound really detatched from the rest of the kit to me.
A friend gave that CD to me as an example when I started mixing his record.
I couldn't figure out why the cymbals sounded "wrong" to me.
I found out from another friend who knows the guy that recorded it and he told me.

Both drum sound replacement and doing things like OD the cymbals is a noble idea that occurs to all engineers at one point or another in their career.
You try it and then in retrospect you realize that all of the effort yielded a crappy, un-realistic sound.

Hi...yes they did overdub the cymbals on the album, not sure about their last album but they did on the two albums before that starting from the one dave grohl played on..Tbh I thought it was a fairly regular way of doing it. To get that super tight no spill, no bleed sound...plus it keeps the cymbals out of the kit compression...

I actually really like the drum sound on those two albums..really unusual and original. As always it's a matter of taste.

I personally think it is a ridiculous way of recording drums..far too much trouble but like I say I dont mind listening to others that do do it.

I use a set of rare BBC pressure zone mics which I think achieve the same thing.

[Space Station]

Originally Posted by ColourSurround

Maybe it's just the layout of my brain but there is so much to comprehend sometimes. I never did get into samples either but I'm wondering, how exactly do you go about it? I mean, where do you get the samples, how do you integrate them into the mix?

I actually was an apprentice for an experimental jazz/rocker band down in Ottawa and the snare was sounding thin throughout the mix. What ended up happening was we brought in an oil drum (or well, something of the elk) and matched each snare hit with a hit on the object for a couple tracks. Really brought that snare sound to life. That's as familiar with sampling as I am, but it does seem like a cool technique.

PiN

Hi, you use computers and a program like pro tools with another program called sound replacer it does what you did above but in about 30 seconds.

Many people use their own samples. IE..The one time you got that absolute killer Kick drum sound? Keep it saved and reuse it on other tracks in the future.

I know of one metal producer that has used the same kick sample for about 10 albums

[dbbubba]

hmmmm... maybe that is why those QOTSA recordings sound so claustrophobic to me?

Cool GTR sounds, but at the expense of the drums?

Sound kinda' dopey to me.
The firsat time I heard that record I liked it, but I immedeately was asking myself, "What is missing here?"

They could have made that record sound good if the cymbals were recorded at the same time as the rest of the drums.
It'd be different than it is, but it could sound just as good.

[Empire Prod]

Here is an example of a modern hard rock mix in which the drums have no processing of any kind. All tones were achieved by using the proper source in the proper environment with proper mics and placements.

[dbbubba]

Great non hyped sound!

that's what they's supposed to sound like in rock-n-roll!

[Empire Prod]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

Great non hyped sound!

that's what they's supposed to sound like in rock-n-roll!

Thanks. I just want to show kids that balance and panning are all that are really needed to get things to cut. You just can't achieve the same results with samples or processing.

There is just something special about real natural drums.

[B-San]

I mostly mix down music containing electronic drums... However I've recently received some sessions which contain live drums... The kick drum consists of 2 tracks, (inside and outside mics)... My question is this: do you guys prefer to eq each of the 2 tracks individually or do y'all like to send them both to a bus so that they may be compressed and eq'ed together, giving a more coherent feel? Many thanks, this thread is greatness!

[Empire Prod]

Originally Posted by B-San

I mostly mix down music containing electronic drums... However I've recently received some sessions which contain live drums... The kick drum consists of 2 tracks, (inside and outside mics)... My question is this: do you guys prefer to eq each of the 2 tracks individually or do y'all like to send them both to a bus so that they may be compressed and eq'ed together, giving a more coherent feel? Many thanks, this thread is greatness!

It really depends upon the tracks you receive. I tend to automate more and compress/limit a little less than most, but if some compression is called for I will tend to use buss compression (usually in parallel) as a starting point.

Remember that live music is much more exciting than computer generated (sample based/drum machine etc) music, so use that to your advantage and try to refrain from over processing.

Samples don't stand a chance against a good live player.

[SRS]

Originally Posted