Drum Mixing Techniques From the Pros

[gollumsluvslave]

Just checked out your thread... that is smaller than small.

Yeah - I've been thinking of swapping the drums and mixing desk around - moving the drums to the wide end to give them a bit more space. But then that might just be robbing peter to pay paul - the mix position wouldn't be so good in the alcove, but it's all a compromise after all - this is just a hobby (& passion) for me.

Anyway, I don't want to hijack this thread any more than i've done already, maybe we could direct it back on topic with tips for very small rooms

[bee]

Originally Posted by peeder

I have placed James' excellent and thorough set of tips into the new Gearslutz wiki. James if you mind my doing so that's fine I will delete the article. I believe, being a wiki, you can go ahead and alter the article if you want.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/tips-...ml#post1745912

Some great info here.

[audioguynyc]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

19.) Don't compress your OH mics.

sounds like a good idea, but my problem is... the ride cymbal/high hat is too low but the crash is way too high. not to mention leakage from the rest of the kit.

help?

[fossaree]

Originally Posted by DeuceyBaby

sounds like a good idea, but my problem is... the ride cymbal/high hat is too low but the crash is way too high. not to mention leakage from the rest of the kit.

help?

there's a Bruce Swedien trick posted on GS ... try a search like :
bruce swedien drums

[bigbone]

Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey

I'm right in the middle of a pretty intense tracking week, Can you remind me in a few days?

What kind of stuff do you want to see?

Hello Mike

Did you have a chance to get a few picture from those drums tracking

All the best

JN

[WunderBro Flo]

Originally Posted by DeuceyBaby

sounds like a good idea, but my problem is... the ride cymbal/high hat is too low but the crash is way too high. not to mention leakage from the rest of the kit.

help?

Sounds like OH mics too low, basically making them crash mics. In that case I would either automate the crash hits down or use a dynamic eq instead of wideband compression.
Rock on!
Pat

[audioguynyc]

Originally Posted by WildCowboys

Sounds like OH mics too low, basically making them crash mics. In that case I would either automate the crash hits down or use a dynamic eq instead of wideband compression.
Rock on!
Pat

thanks! to you and the other dude.

[Storyville]

Ok, I'm going to jump in this thread.... a year late. Great tips, though I've only been through about five pages.

In mixing, I generally lump sounds into two categories: textural-tonal, and visceral. I want the stuff that hits your ears, and I want the stuff that hits your guts. This ideology comes into full play with drums.

1. To get a snare and kick that hits the guts, it really helps when the impact is dead center. I want the snare to fold to mono with no change. This means both OHs really have to be equidistant from the snare. Same applies to the kick. I usually line up the OHs to create a 90 degree bisect with the line between the center of the snare and the center of the kick. From there, the height and angling helps me get what kind of cymbals I want.

2. Higher OHs, farther room mics = more "open sound" and more room.

3. With the snare close mics, I like to use the top to get impact. I use a very shallow angle, very close to the rim, aimed at the center. For the bottom, I want the snare texture. I aim the snare bottom directly up into the center, with a little space in there. This gives me a nice color wheel to play with come mix time.

4. With kicks, I'm usually thinking about two things : the thump (lows) and the definition of the attack (highs). I'll either use a dynamic in to catch attack and a tunneled condenser out to get thump (which usually gets compressed later) - this is a versatile setup - or a dynamic in placed shallow to get a blend of thump and attack. OR I will use a single condenser angled down toward the center of the kick and maybe a foot back and a foot up - this usually gets a nice sense of the overall kick. The first method is choice because I can really manipulate the ASDR on the kick mics and get a perfect sound for the mix.

5. For cymbals and toms I usually let the OHs do the talking, unless I'm working on some particularly drum-centric stuff.

6. Come mix time, the less drum mics I can use, the better. I find myself making humungous obscene cuts on room mics, close mics, OHs, depending on where things lead. I generally don't like too much "overlap" between drum sounds. Make the image sound complex - which is fine until you bring the rest of the mix elements in. 7 times out of 10, I'm picking my OHs as my main drum sound, with the kick tucked in, and the snare top adding some impact. Hip Hop mixes, go on their head - and I'll have a condenser on the snare top, and focus on the kick and snare top and blend the rooms underneath that - often with a huge cut to the mids on the rooms. OHs are just grabbing cymbals on those.

7. There are no bad drum rooms, and no room is too small for a stereo capture. If it seems to small, I just throw up my OHs in X-Y. Captures like a mono, mixes like a stereo.

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by bigbone

Hello Mike

Did you have a chance to get a few picture from those drums tracking

All the best

JN

Yes. I'll send you the link once they're uploaded.

[bigbone]

Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey

Yes. I'll send you the link once they're uploaded.

Thank you, that's very nice of you

All the best

JN

[James Meeker]

I've seen a bit of confusion on this a few times so I'd like to clarify:

"Don't compress your overheads"

I suggest that as a TIP only--this is not the typical way that I do things either... but SOMETIMES and for certain sessions/types of music leaving the overheads alone and uncompressed can add a certain level of dynamics, natural feel and rawness that can be pretty cool.

I'd probably say that this is the exception rather than the rule. It's something to ponder, something to think about... one of those "there are no rules" suggestions. Maybe someone never thought to just leave the overheads alone on a session and that's what really sounds great.

Any of the tips I gave are to be taken with a grain of salt--I only suggested them to jump start your own creativity and maybe look at drum production in a different way. There's more than one way to screw up a mix, after all.

[I-am-challenged]

I've read a lot of this thread, but I'd like to get some new thoughts. I'm VERY new to mixing, and have only mixed songs with drum loops. I'm now housesitting for someone who has a studio that he said I could use for some mixing stuff.

Panning? Could you discuss panning drums? Compression? I think I have a good idea of the EQing but compression I'm still rusty on. Do you compress the entire kit on one bus? How about squashing the room mics, or is it better to parallel compress them? Reverb? Is it a bad idea to use them on room mics or OH? Levels? Where would you usually set the OH and Rooms on the meter? I'm thinking OH around -12, and maybe room about -6?

I've got lots of plugins to use for mixing in his studio. Waves API, SSL, and V series, Sonnox, URS, and Altiverb. Of these plugs, can you recommend anything? I'm going for a very british sound such as Muse's "Starlight" or anything Coldplay.

[azazel]

Did you read the condensed version of James' tips:

Drums - Mixing tips by James Meeker

That's a great place to start.

Personally, I sometimes add reverb to room mics if the room itself was not up to much. I haven't listened to Muse for a while but from what I remember big room plays a key part in that drum sound. In terms of mixing your OH and Room mics: play around, listen, play around some more, listen some more etc... All the plugins you listed are great in their own way. Maybe someone can chime in about which specific ones would go some way towards emulating the Muse/Coldplay sound.

[I-am-challenged]

I did read that, and it was VERY helpful. I'm still wondering about panning though, and also compression on room mics? I'm thinking of parallel compression on the drum bus, minus rooms, and then squashing the room mics with a single compressor. Or should the room tracks breathe??

Thank you.

[sloper]

Originally Posted by I-am-challenged

I did read that, and it was VERY helpful. I'm still wondering about panning though, and also compression on room mics? I'm thinking of parallel compression on the drum bus, minus rooms, and then squashing the room mics with a single compressor. Or should the room tracks breathe??

Thank you.

For panning there isn't really any rules. For rock my personal preference is to pan things either hard left, center, or right. I also compress the rooms quite hard but how i do it varies depending on the track. Sometimes i compress the overheads and sometimes i don't. Again depending on the music (usually hard rock) and the player I may gate the drums to clean things up. For something like folk or Jazz i like to leave everything open. The important thing is that it changes every time.

I would check out "The mixing engineers handbook" and read through the interviews section. There are many ways to skin this cat. Good luck!

[Colombian]

I enjoyed reading this post for the last 3 hours. Great discussions, tips and explanations.

As long as the customer is happy, all is valid. (Unless you are looking for an Grammy in sound editing )

regards,
Ludwig

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by I-am-challenged

I did read that, and it was VERY helpful. I'm still wondering about panning though, and also compression on room mics? I'm thinking of parallel compression on the drum bus, minus rooms, and then squashing the room mics with a single compressor. Or should the room tracks breathe??

Panning? In my opinion easy: hard pan the stereo tracks (OH/rooms). Set the toms in the stereo image accordingly, making sure to pay attention to how you have the rooms/OH's set (don't have the toms go L to R on the OH and R to L on the tom mics). I'll often hard pan the high hat and ride to the R and L respectively.

All this 'parallel compress this, drum buss that, squash this and that' seems to miss the point of having the drums recorded well in the first place. If you have to do all that stuff something else is wrong. Those techniques are icing on the cake, NOT the cake. It's not going to turn mediocre drums into great if that's what you're thinking.

Personally, on most mixes, I prefer to keep the OH's fairly clean sounding, but will beat up the rooms with limiting pretty good. I like 'roomy', Zeppelin-esque sounding drums. In the software world my weapon of choice for beating up the room mics is the EMI TG 1969 (set to limit); hardware wise the way to go is a Urei 1178, or link some Chandler TG limiters.

[feckinedgit]

Just listening to Deep Purple Who do we think we are.

Recorded on the Stones 16 track mobile studio with many of the 16 tracks not used!

Four tracks used for the drums.

I have removed many of the drum mics and stripped it all back with only one tom plus a floor tom.


Given the Foos recently went lower - fi with there latest album I think many people are getting sick of over produced sounds.

FWIW I think Purple MK2`s albums all sound fresh and exciting and far better than much of the stuff I hear these days.

Not in the same City let alone Ball park, but this is my own humble efforts.


A place apart | The Electric Moccasins


this and its sister track Hide the stars recorded in a draughty shed using only 6 tracks for drums.
Two OH`s
two tom mics
bass drum and single top mic on the snare.

All very very low end gear.

[Cut It Live]

Get a great player with great technique and a great kit that's in tune. Throw in some well placed room mics in a nice room. If it sounds week, then you're behind the eight ball. In the mix, add some compression and EQ and a little verb to compliment the song and then you're done. If it still sucks, use some samples. If it still sucks, the song probably sucks. Get a new one. If it still sucks, get fitted for a blue Walmart greeters vest.

[lionheart]

Good thread.. And James, A lot of great writing/tips here.. love reading your thought's and experiences!! thumbsup

I was wondering..
How do you guy's place your room mics when you mix drums from drummers perspective. if you want to capture a wide stereo image of the drums, do you then place the room mic's behind the kit or in front (with reversed panning) ?

[Dr. Fleischman]

Considering "stereo" snares image in these songs,
is a snare track (in Pro Tools):

a) duplicated and pan hard left and right?
b) it's stereo snare with one channel panned left and the other panned right?

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by Dr. Fleischman

a) duplicated and pan hard left and right?

For creating a stereo image this is useless unless some other processing is involved. Technically a centered image is an identical sound at equal volume panned right and left.

That is equivalent to raising the volume of the centered snare by whatever the pan law is on the console/DAW.

Originally Posted by Dr. Fleischman

b) it's stereo snare with one channel panned left and the other panned right?

Well, if you don't pan them it's not really stereo.....

If you want ambiance on a snare either run it to a stereo reverb, stereo delay, or use a stereo sample where there's some type of stereo miking on the OH or room.

Granted, most of the discussion on this thread involved real drums--not samples/drum machines. However, based on a quick listen the second track seem to pan the snare/clap/washy thing a bit, probably automated, into a stereo ping pong delay. Don't hold me to that because I didn't sit down and analyze it with headphones or anything. Just first impressions.

[larrykane]

didn't read all 17 pages so maybe this was mentioned. Fletcher from mercenary audio (many of you know him i suspect) has a three mic method. I tried for one session, and it worked very well for that session. the link to the method is here
Mercenary Audio - Three Microphone Drum Stuff by Fletcher from the rec.audio.pro Usenet Group

the youtube of my results with his method is here
YouTube - ‪larryraykane's Channel‬‏

it's not right for all genre's and dialing it in is a bit trycky but it produces a punchy open sound