Any M160 overhead placement tricks for me?

[Jules]

I have a pair now...

Got some tips how to place them in OH aplication?

Thanks

[studjo]

same here

Jo

[davemc]

I used x-y, spaced or the so called recordermans trick(the old one above the snare and one pointing over the floor).
It really depended on the style and band. Personally I like my drums very stereo so normally went wide route.

Jules I actually brought a SF12 to replace the M160's, as I thought the SF12 was a bit more real like then the beyers. I now use the m160's for room mics.
Just wondering why you are going the other way, is it because of the lower roof?
With teh SF12 I I have been using them lately behind the drummer not over the kit and been liking that better.

[Jules]

Yes.. M160's because of low roof.

Teusday is my last trial day for the SF12 before I sell it, your suggestion to use it BEHIND the drummer is awesome (as it is 'deader' back there!)... I will be sure to try that!!!

Teusday

Try SF12 or M160 or M149 on OH (try Thermonic Culture / Helios / API mic pres)
try Sen 421 or Neumann M149 on toms (helios / API)
Use what's left on room

I will have my 4 ch SPL Transient Designer handy.. see if it comes in use...

Of course the Helio M160 combo has a Led Zep vibe (toad-ally dude! For that is whut they used!)

Teusday night I will decide if SF12 needs to go up on Ebay or if I bought the Beyer M160's 'for nothing' - (I can't really afford to be buying mic's right now.. and the SF12 may need a happy home....times are tough)

Session running this weekend (house engineer Tom at the controls) has a GREAT cymbal sound - and he did that using the M160's (I insisted he try them out with a gun to his head!))

Jules

[7rojo7]

I actually use 3, because they have a tight pattern. think of it as having 3 flashlights that have to illuminate the whole kit. If you like wide, you can get it like this. I've always found that if I positioned 160s like other cardiod mics that I'd have a HOLE in my response right where the snare was. It's a little like putting up 2 57s over the kit. 3 work better.
So, from over the drummer's right shoulder point one towards the HH as far left, point another from over the HH towards the right side getting the center of all the cymbals that are in that direction, point another from directly over the drummer's head at the point where there is the center of the snare, tom/s and other cymbals. Measure the distance with a ruler from the zero degree of each mic from its primary target and make sure that they're all the same. I usually mix these to 2 tracks, working with the left and right mics first, make a balance untill the snare sounds like it's in the middle then I add the middle untill the snare sounds like the snare. I prefer 260s to 160s, just my preference.
This works great with bashers (hardcore, speed,) where the cymbal and HH sound is basically modulated envelopped pink noise. The LPF, low distortion high end quality of ribbons is especially appreciated here (just like with muted tpt).
Basically the sums and differences between the mics make the image happen, I wouldn't HPF untill the mix. it's great for "making stereo" rather than just capturing it.
You can probably find 3 260s for less than 2 160s
Have you considered making a gobo for your SF12?
On a popscreen holder goose neck insert a piece of auralex attached to some lead sheet, that should cut some of that backstreet bleeding. I do it for tpt and my JV74s.

[Jules]

Re gobo for SF12 funny you should say that

I've heard of gobos for the backside of figure of 8 ribbon mic's just the other day

I may try it teusday..

[LTA]

Originally posted by Jules
Re gobo for SF12 funny you should say that

I've heard of gobos for the backside of figure of 8 ribbon mic's just the other day

I may try it teusday..

If you are playing with gobos, try taking 2 and putting them on the left and right of the mic. Ideally, you want to block out the side reflections from 45 to 135 degrees on either side. Early reflections from this angle really mess things up. Its a wall thing. L+R is okay. (-1)L+(-1)R is okay. But from 45 to 135 degrees, you get (-1)L+R, which is bad. A source 90 degrees off axis with be at the same level to both capsules, only of opposite polarity (on the sf12 specifically, as the back lobe is fairly congruent with the front). For reference purposes, try combining your SF12 to mono, and see if that is still too "ambient" for your tastes.

Now, another thing i found with the SF12 (or probably any bipolar mic) when working with low ceilings is based off an old trick for putting up acoustical tile on side walls near the monitoring position to cut down on the comb filtering from the wall slap. Imagine a mirror somewhere over your drum set, mounted on the ceiling. I hear more stories about this sort of thing from the live sound people, but.... Look up the barrel of the sf12 and line the y axis up perpendicular to the reflection of the drumset in the mirror. This puts the direct wall reflection right in the null of the microphone This only works with figure-eight mics of course Depending on where you set the mic up, it will be pointing over the drums, under the drums, or right in the middle of everything. The sf12 has a pretty generous vertical angle of pickup, so as long as the mic is generally pointing towards the kit things will be okay. Putting the mic vertically directly over the kit probably won't be okay (but might be fun anyway).

Stay at least a few feet away from the ceiling, and i can near gaurantee your mileage may vary

[lowswing]

I'm using the m160 often as overhead mics, my drum room is big, using the m160 on OH let me but the guitarist and bassist in the room (with amps) without the amps spilling too much to the oh when tracked a lone in the room i use a room mic, useally c12 or c414 in mono.
i use them in spaced position (one above the floor tom one above the high tom) "looking at the snare.
the image come very wide with nice balanced snare and not to much bass drum, and let the spot mics to be mixed very good in, i'm using mainly tele v676 for rock sound and cadac g268 for more smoth jazzy sound.
Tip: used these mics on a jazz kit relative low and got amazing details from cymbals and brushes without getting harsh sound!

[Han]

Julian, what about a NOS or DIN placement of 160's when you have some height? Or an ORTF placement a little closer to the kit?
Works okay for me.

[Jules]

What are NOS DIN and OTF?


My ceiling is 7ft high only.....

[warhead]

(copy and paste for Jules) :)

ORTF

The French Radio Organization developed this technique. A high quality, matched pair of cardioid condenser microphones are placed 17 cm apart at an angle of 110 degrees. The distance from the ensemble will determine the amount of room reverberation - further away from the ensemble will have more reverb and closer placement will have less room sound. A good starting placement would be approximately 7 feet away and 9 feet up.

NOS

This technique was developed by Dutch Broadcasting (Nederlandsche Omroep Stichting).The NOS is similar to ORTF, however the cardioid microphones are 30cm apart and at an angle of 90 degrees.

DIN

(Proposed for standard in Germany) The DIN technique is similar to ORTF, however the cardioid microphones are 20cm apart and at an angle of 90 degrees.

War

[Jules]

Can anyone do me a drawing?

Please!

[1nation]

Originally posted by Jules
Can anyone do me a drawing?

Please!

Here's some pics Jules.

[Han]

Jules, look also here:

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/page.php?PID=131

[davemc]

I might give my m160's a try next drum session, have not used them for overheads since I re did the rooms.

What about out front of the kit as well Jules?

[Jules]

Thanks 1nation!

[warhead]

I actually prefer the ROTF/LMAO technique. It's like X/Y but not really.





War

[Jules]

OK can someone explain in plain and SIMPLE english what the hell the red dots on the mic have got to do with positioning?

PLEASE

And dont use the word 'concentric' because I am too stupid to understand it..

2 mics, a drum kit and 4 red dots?????????????????????

WTF?

[lowswing]

hi jules,
where anf for how much did you buy your m160 , i can't find any dealer who sells them and i really want ONE MORE pair

[Jules]

Ha!

The client / studio internet is in thedrum room (double as a chil out / live area) we got that link up & used it!

We like ORTF on the M160's and stuck with it.

It beat the SF 12 behind the drumer

with thanks, Jules a few yards from the drum kit!

[jasonlivermore]

jules the marks are where the ribbon is placed. I think you are supposed to align them vertically to the sound source. I've never noticed a difference. My two m160's just got back from beyer from another round of reconditioning, and they lost their red dots, now they are clear, very strange.


Jason Livermore

[jlarcombe]

Jules, I believe the red dots on the M160 indicate the alignment of the ribbon. Apparently they should be positioned vertically to stop the ribbon 'sagging'.

Glad to hear you managed to get hold of some M160s. I'd still be happy to bring my KM184s over in case you wanted to try yet another option for drum overheads (I'm just down the road). I'd certainly be interested in hearing the Beyers. Have you tried them on any other sources, eg. sibilant vocalist?

James.

[7rojo7]

I still say 3 x M260s if you liked the M160s. You can get a little closer and control the image more. The 160s get a good picture at a yard and a foot, but it's more powerful at about 2 1/2 feet, but you get a hole with 2 mics. With 3 you can fill in the whole and you don't have to worry about any initials. Point 1 from ver the dummers right shoulder (of course in front of his head) towards the HH, point another from exactly in the opposite direction towards the cymbals over the FT, from directly over the drummers Head point the third at the middle of the conglomeration of kik beater, snare, toms and cymbals in the center and "make" stereo from these. The sums and differences make the image. I like the M260s better and they make great tpt, flugel horn and small GTR amp mics.

[heylow]

Jules,

The dots do, in fact, denote the direction of the ribbon. I have also read that the pattern is slightly wider horizontally with the dots aligned vertically.....(does that make sense?).

M160s are the bees friggin knees, methinks. I love my pair....of M160s, that is. Of course my "pair" ain't so shabby either.....that being a differnt thread and board altogether.


heylow

[bing81]

Just re the red dots, as already mentioned, it's the alignment of the ribbon - and also, the pattern is wider across the dots than "through" them.

It's useful to know, for example, if you're micing a singing acoustic guitarist .. you can align the mic to get more/less gtr or voice. It's something I'm also aware of with the 160's as OH's, especially the one I have over the snare, as you can angle the mic to get more/less HH or rack tom.

Speaking of 160's, anyone using them on loud (I mean loud!) amp? I'm not quite ready to risk them.

As for reribboning, you can just buy a replacement capsule and put it in. It works out about the same price.