Modern Musical Creativity-- illusion or Musical Expression

[midnightsun]

While I read the forum discussions of where the whole music industry is going my kids and their friends are in the other room going wild with ROCKBAND in there XBOX 360.

Wait a minute! How can these kids play music--- they are undisciplined and they don't really know anything about music. But they THINK that they are playing music and they are having loads of fun and spending lots of time.

So, is what they are doing really musical expression? What about creating songs with BAND IN THE BOX, GARAGE BAND, etc, etc. At what point does computer assisted musical creation cease to be music? If you talk to the person using the computer who feels they are creating with Garage Band, the answer is possibly NEVER.

I wonder if as we open up the horizons of "virtual reality," music will become for participatory.

When I hear what my kids are listening to they are buying the stuff that they can identify with. They are buying the stuff that sounds like it was made on Garage Band. The rhythms and beats are simple and the kids can quickly go with the grove.
They aren't running toward quality and fidelity of tone. They aren't running toward sophisticated rhythms and arrangements. It seems my kids are buying what they feel they are a part of.

The kids don't care what kind of preamp, mic, or DAW the music is made with.

The genie is out of the bottle. The kids are having so much fun with their virtual music that the sound is overflowing into my studio space. I am going to have to banish them to the far reaches of the room over the garage. I just hope that I can have as much fun as them. I am embarrassed to admit that I did fill in with the kids on lead guitar as they went on their virtual tour to Amsterdam. As far as the kids are concerned I am in the same league with Lawerence Welk. The little heathens just don't respect my taste in tone quality..... and what the heck is going on in the public schools when these kids don't even know who Bo Diddley, Chuck Berry, Jeff Beck, etc are.

[picksail]

Let's hope that Rockband and Guitar Hero are gateway drugs.

The equivalent to the ole "broom with a bathrobe dancing in front of the mirror" for me.

Maybe these kids will be inspired to take up a real instrument at some point.

[henryrobinett]

Yeah. I don't think they're not creating MUSIC. I think the process is changing so much that the quality of individually created music is just so much NOT THE SAME that I'm very little interested in the outcome.

Yes, I think it's music. I think the process in which one trains ones hands and mind to create aesthetically communicative sounds based solely one ones understanding of the language of music using a tool one has become intimately connected with (musical instrument) that has a direct connection with ones imagination and therefore becomes a spiritual experience, is a necessarily different process than "collaborating" with some unseen/unknown digital programmer who takes you through the motion of realizing some preconceived sounds, preconceived rhythms, preconceived music. The technology of what one is doing is not fully realized, except by understanding the workings of a "program."

So I think this is one reason music has lost some sophistication over the recent years. Not only is there less understanding of the SUBJECT of music, in technical terms, but there's so little understanding of it that the understanding of WHY it's important is gone, --especially since so much money is being made by people who have not studied the subject. And in the US, the capitalistic capital of the world, success is determined by a scale or index of how much money a "product" can earn.

[faramita]

Oh My God! End of GOOD TASTE in music. Just like when I was a kid and my elders said "What is this Elvis, Beatles, Hendrix...... rubbish! Don't you know who Monteverdi, Bach, Beethoven, Count Basie, Duke Ellington is? Actually I did, but it felt great annoying them by playing Zappa (for example) at great volume to old stiffs who considered (and many still do) anything after Mozart tuneless rubbish.
I should not worry too much about "the youth of today". Plenty will end up playing a lot more imaginative and interesting music than you or I(or even Chuck Berry), I bet. As for Garage Band etc., its just an entry toy just like a cheap acoustic guitar was in 1960's. A bit of fun, and the occasional genius will surface once in a while. Not a lot of strummers of old became Bob Dylan even in the "Good Old Days"!

[uptoolate]

I'm sure I will get flamed for this, but here goes.

I really like both extremes and everything in between.

Keb Mo in a room with one mic. Awesome! It just drips with soul and skill.

BT tweaking the living daylights out of every last studer edit. Awesome! Some of this stuff is genious. When you really listen to what he does, it really is amazing.

These examples require two completely different skills, but both are music, and both are creative.

Of course there is a tone of crap out there too. A ton. But, I think the opportunity for someone to be creative has been inhanced by the tools.

Just my .02

[ALL*MYTEE]

A lot of unrivaled music has been created by what previous generations consider "heathens" artistically speaking. Starting with Mozart at least and continuing through the blues, hot and cool jazz, Elvis and Bo, James Brown, Rock, Funk, Punk, dance music, hip-hop--wait that's everything. Would anyone say now that hip-hop isn't a legitimate art because it uses samples instead of live instrumentation at times?

There's no reason that future generations couldn't use video games the same way. In fact, it seems inevitable that more and more sophisticated video game/beatmaking hybrids will arise with ways to make original copyright free music.

As for knowing who Jeff Beck is--would it matter if Son House didn't know who Ravel was? (I'm saying this as a hypothetical--for all I know he did.) To make what's next, we must at least in part ignore what has come before and step into the unmediated and "inappropriate" (by current standards) void.

It also seems common that every generation thinks that their knowledge on the matter of technical standards and appropriate content are somehow holy. It happens in writing, music, movies, tv, etc.

I'd say that if they can get free enough, they've got a shot at communicating the joy they're experiencing and making something great. Ideally there'd be a great preamp in the signal chain when they do, but worse things have happened.

BTW--I don't believe in "real" instruments or tools, just real artists and real performances. Hearing Augustus Pablo play the melodica cured me of that. God knows what some of my favorite albums were recorded with back in the punk days.

Addressing the name of the post, I don't believe creativity can be stopped or even slowed. It just is. We have the opportunity to enjoy it or not, that's all. It's not something we can slow, dent or malign by not doing it right. It doesn't ultimately matter if someone hears it, if it sells, if it's professional quality, in good taste or even if it's recorded--either it's inherently valuable or not.

Happy New Year.

[vernier]

Anything goes.

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by ALL*MYTEE

It also seems common that every generation thinks that their knowledge on the matter of technical standards and appropriate content are somehow holy. It happens in writing, music, movies, tv, etc.

Just for the record, I don't think this. The think the downfall had already started -- not that there hasn't been some great music every step of the way. Today there is some great music. That's not what I am saying. Not that it matters what I'm saying because the discussion is not about what I'm saying. I'm just clarifying what my POV is not.

[Ben J]

The game Guitar Hero elicits no more creativity than pressing play on a CD player.

[Mr. Liszt]

Originally Posted by midnightsun

...sounds like it was made on Garage Band. The rhythms and beats are simple and the kids can quickly go with the grove.
They aren't running toward quality and fidelity of tone. They aren't running toward sophisticated rhythms and arrangements. It seems my kids are buying what they feel they are a part of.

Sounds kinda like your knocking Garageband a little. Have you ever used it though? If someone knows what they are doing they can create a great sounding piece of music with Garageband software. You can create loops and midi tracks that are as complex as you could imagine. And it multitracks audio just like any other DAW. It is a very powerful piece of software. Just because it is built into the price of an Apple computer and basically free doesn't mean that it's not capable of producing professional fidelity and quality. So your comment:

"......sounds like it was made on Garage Band."

... actually sounds really retarded, dude.

[Madgan Sound]

Not to derail the thread too much but - I have been a student, performer and teacher of the guitar for almost thirty years now. That being said, during the holiday 'get together' with my extended family, two of my teenage nieces came over. They (knowing how involved I am with music) made it a point to run over to me and brag about how well they can play the guitar now. Of course that was because they got 'Guitar Hero' for Christmas, no lie. Just another depressing sign of our current culture. I wasn't even sure how to respond to them. Just a smirk with a "that's great" is all I could muster. I am all for light-hearted fun and I have no problems with video games in general but, with music programs disappearing from school systems left and right, this is not the direction I would want kids to go for a 'creative' outlet.

rant over - thanks.

[kadeemusic]

Originally Posted by Madgan Sound

Not to derail the thread too much but - I have been a student, performer and teacher of the guitar for almost thirty years now. That being said, during the holiday 'get together' with my extended family, two of my teenage nieces came over. They (knowing how involved I am with music) made it a point to run over to me and brag about how well they can play the guitar now. Of course that was because they got 'Guitar Hero' for Christmas, no lie. Just another depressing sign of our current culture. I wasn't even sure how to respond to them. Just a smirk with a "that's great" is all I could muster. I am all for light-hearted fun and I have no problems with video games in general but, with music programs disappearing from school systems left and right, this is not the direction I would want kids to go for a 'creative' outlet.

rant over - thanks.

Honestly, I'm not worried too much about Guitar Hero taking over from real music making. It's a novelty right now because its so new, but I don't think it's anything more than a fad. I can just picture it being the subject of a segment on VH1's "I Love the '00s" with all those talking heads making quips about how lame it was, (along with Dance Dance Revolution). Video games are such a rapidly evolving technology that it isn't long before something gets replaced with the next big thing. But the guitar's been around for decades, and there's still no shortage of kids still wanting to pick it up and start their own bands, so I'd say real musicians aren't in any danger of going anywhere.

[midnightsun]

Originally Posted by Mr. Liszt

Sounds kinda like your knocking Garageband a little. Have you ever used it though? If someone knows what they are doing they can create a great sounding piece of music with Garageband software. You can create loops and midi tracks that are as complex as you could imagine. And it multitracks audio just like any other DAW. It is a very powerful piece of software. Just because it is built into the price of an Apple computer and basically free doesn't mean that it's not capable of producing professional fidelity and quality. So your comment:

"......sounds like it was made on Garage Band."

... actually sounds really retarded, dude.

First, you should relax and open your mind a bit. Surely you must understand irony and sarcasm. For the record I use Garage Band as well as Band in the Box and quite enjoy these tools of creativity.

Second, be careful about throwing terms around like "retarded." Even if you are fortunate enough to not have friends or family members who are intellectually disabled. I trust that you meant no ill intent and are just using the term unwittingly in order to make a point.

[midnightsun]

Originally Posted by Madgan Sound

Not to derail the thread too much but - I have been a student, performer and teacher of the guitar for almost thirty years now. That being said, during the holiday 'get together' with my extended family, two of my teenage nieces came over. They (knowing how involved I am with music) made it a point to run over to me and brag about how well they can play the guitar now. Of course that was because they got 'Guitar Hero' for Christmas, no lie. Just another depressing sign of our current culture. I wasn't even sure how to respond to them. Just a smirk with a "that's great" is all I could muster. I am all for light-hearted fun and I have no problems with video games in general but, with music programs disappearing from school systems left and right, this is not the direction I would want kids to go for a 'creative' outlet.

rant over - thanks.

I agree that we to have a very serious problem with decreasing funds for the arts in education. I hope that your nieces will find "Guitar Hero" a stepping stone to developing musically. My first musical expression was playing the transistor radio. My instrument of choice is the harmonica, preferably played around a campfire. I spent a 7 period of my life living without electricity so by necessity I developed a love for acoustic music.