Importance of a Grand Piano on the studio floor?

[Jamz]

Love the sound of a real acoustic piano being played well. Generally speaking it seems that many of the studios I encounter either don't have have one or leave what they have in disrepair. The ability to control ones performance through MIDI and the state of sound sources makes it a difficult decision whether to commit to such a large investment.

I have a 2,000 sq ft mid level facility. It's not the Hit Factory and it's not a basement. I have enough room for a Yamaha C3 and would love to have it grace my floor. It is doubtful that such a purchase would be transferrable to my rate nor do I believe it will reel in significant extra cash in and of itself. However, I would hope that it would make a statement about the quality of the facility and possibly attract a market I've been unable to accommodate without having one available.

It might be possible to arrange for a brand new Yamaha C3. It would be a strain and a long term committment...but also fulfillment of a dream.
Just don't want it to become a nightmare.

Two questions:
- Is it worth having a piano on the floor?
- What do you piano guys feel is a good price on a new Yamaha C3?

[jacktadoussac]

This is not to say you shouldn't go out and buy a new one if your heart desires, but I'd say there is also the possibility of renting it if the client or project needs it.

Also when I've had the pleasure of checking out the pianos in Straight Music, in Austin TX, I concluded that the American made Baldwin was an excellent piano. Same for Steinway but they didn't have them.

What you will find in most cities where there is a music school, opera, symphony etc is that the players in the piano business offer pianos to the public that have been used for a year or two. That was the case in Toronto with both Yamaha and Baldwin. It should shave a couple of grand from the price, and the piano is not so old that it needs some rebuilding (like my Charles Stieff upright grand circa 1920s (not bad condition but you could get into some cost if you rebuild an older instrument).

[dbbubba]

In the room I had between '90 and '93 we had a Steinway B.
The room had initially been built with a space specifically made for a Bosendorfer, but the Bosendorfer was not part of the deal when we took over the building.
It was later, but that is another story in itself.

We had several high profile big band projects that required a good grand and the KYBD player in the big band turned us on to a program with Steinway.
For basically about $300.00 per month we were able to lease a 7' Steinway B through Steinway of Dallas on what the called an "institutional lease."

They brought a piano and voiced it to the specs of the piano player (an old high school friend of mine) and it sounded wonderful!

Because the piano was in our studio friends of people from one session would see it and specifically book another session specifically because we had that piano.
So, it definitely paid for itself in the bookings that it generated.

My business partner was a rock drummer and couldn't wrap his mind around anything that wasn't drums, bass and two GTRs.
He was really against paying for that piano and he hated writing a check each month even though the piano ALWAYS brought in more than it cost to have it.

Of course, after I left the piano went away pretty quickly.
The place turned into a rock-n-roll room and no-one who played stuff that needed a piano was coming around with me gone, so...

Just make sure that you can cater to the clientel that will want to use a piano.
It has to be a special piano that piano players will WANT to use.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Jamz

It is doubtful that such a purchase would be transferrable to my rate nor do I believe it will reel in significant extra cash in and of itself. However, I would hope that it would make a statement about the quality of the facility and possibly attract a market I've been unable to accommodate without having one available.

I think you just answered your own question.....

and then....

you contradicted yourself.

If it can leverage you up to a new level, I'd say do it. If not, I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't buy new either. Too many great deals out there. Get aquainted with a great piano tech and have him/her keep a lookout for you. When you find one that suits your needs, weigh the $$$ against the potential and make your decision.

[Jamz]

I definitely understand the pragmatic aspects of renting when needed. However, outta sight outta mind could inadvertantly ignore potential biz. As mentioned above, having one on the floor is a constant advertisement that could bring in clients by mere word of mouth regarding availability.

There is an opportunity to have a new 6'1" Yamaha C3 on the floor for around $300. per month...for many months. Looking at used Steinway Bs etc. also looks interesting. The problem is never really knowing what you have until you own it for a while. Also, the financing and guarantee on a used piece is not as attractive.

I'm about 75% of the way through building a new room. I'm over budget and not done. It seems endless at times and every turn there's a new challenge to encounter that usually involves $$ and a bit of a compromise.
I do picture a piano on the floor and have been researching. Picked up the Larry Fine book a few months ago as well. Not sure if I'm attracted to the allure only or if it will actually help attract the clientel I'm envisioning.

[Jamz]

Originally Posted by drBill

I think you just answered your own question.....

and then....

you contradicted yourself.

LOL! Well...depends. I don't believe that by purchasing a piano my rates can go up to reflect the purchase. So the piano in and of itself wouldn't be an immediate payoff. However, and here is the risk of course, I would hope or like to think that having the piano on the floor would over time attract perhaps a different market or clientel that would only consider a facility that has decent (or great) piano. That risk is my confusion.
I suppose I'm asking you piano guys how likely that might be.

Originally Posted by drBill

If it can leverage you up to a new level, I'd say do it. If not, I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't buy new either. Too many great deals out there. Get aquainted with a great piano tech and have him/her keep a lookout for you. When you find one that suits your needs, weigh the $$$ against the potential and make your decision.

Good advice. It is also the weighing that is the hardest part.

[Jules]

A piano is the only way to attract some sessions..

It depends if you want / can get or have those sorts of clients...

A real piano has 'magic' and can inspire an artist to a) make use of it, b) have an enchanting time messing around with it while at your studio c) rack up extra hours trying to incorporate it into their session when they hadn't planned on it.

I am too much of a t-shirt wearing gonzo rocker to think about pulling in clients that might want to record flute and piano duets, or opera singers doing demo reels... and besides, my studios floorspace wasn't ever big enough really to accommodate a piano... But I would say I had on average about 6-8 calls a year asking if I had a piano.. and probably wished for one on my own sessions about 10 times a year...

So who knows where those sessions would have lead to if I did have one..

[vixapphire]

if it's your room, your dream and you'll presumably play the thing for your own enjoyment in off-hours, so you should observe the "you only live once" proverb here.

don't waste your money on a new one, though. here in so. cal., the colleges (there are a gazillion of them) all seem to replace their pianos every few years, offering the one's they've got for incredible deals. you oughtta check around your vicinity and see whether any of the schools do the same thing. it might be that your dream is more within your reach than you were thinking.

we had a 7' or thereabouts Kawai grand piano in the studio in my college, and it was a fantastic recording grand. thick and clear low-end, twinkling highs, and very sweet across the entire dynamic range.

you may also profit from following estate sales in your area (i'd include ohio in this, since my parents live in cleveland and seem to go to posh estate sales several times a month), as the grown kids of the upper-middle class types whose homes are "estate sale'd" often have no room in their houses for a big piano (or have one of their own), creating a great opportunity to capture a nice, non-abused specimen at firesale pricing.

happy hunting!

[vixapphire]

don't forget the dual use for a grand, involving a speaker, microphone and cinderblock for the sustain pedal...

now there's a high-end reverb that's worth at least a few hundred bucks of the piano's price!

[Jules]

Originally Posted by vixapphire

if it's your room, your dream and you'll presumably play the thing for your own enjoyment in off-hours, so you should observe the "you only live once" proverb here.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing too, I am not a player, but if you are.. well.. What he said...

[The Byre]

Two questions:

- Is it worth having a piano on the floor?

If you are a real studio, you have a piano. Getting a good piano was the best investment I ever made.

- What do you piano guys feel is a good price on a new Yamaha C3?

Get a real piano. Japanese pianos are ten-a-penny. $50k will get you a good, used Boesendorfer or Steinway.

[Jamz]

Totally agree and...I am not a player. I produce projects I would use it on and I have a facility it would be offered in.
I too am a T shirt wearing gonzo rocker. My favorite album of all time is Beggars Banquet. Hard to imagine that sound without the tickling of the late Nicky Hopkins. I hear that sound of acoustic and electric guitars combined with piano in a lot of todays indie music. Love it. Want more of it.
Of course I would also encourage "legit" work as well.

Originally Posted by Jules

A piano is the only way to attract some sessions..

It depends if you want / can get or have those sorts of clients...

A real piano has 'magic' and can inspire an artist to a) make use of it, b) have an enchanting time messing around with it while at your studio c) rack up extra hours trying to incorporate it into their session when they hadn't planned on it.

I am too much of a t-shirt wearing gonzo rocker to think about pulling in clients that might want to record flute and piano duets, or opera singers doing demo reels... and besides, my studios floorspace wasn't ever big enough really to accommodate a piano... But I would say I had on average about 6-8 calls a year asking if I had a piano.. and probably wished for one on my own sessions about 10 times a year...

So who knows where those sessions would have lead to if I did have one..

[Jamz]

Originally Posted by The Byre

Get a real piano. Japanese pianos are ten-a-penny. $50k will get you a good, used Boesendorfer or Steinway.

At this time $50K for a piano is a little too real for my budget sorry to say.

[idylldon]

Well, I would go for the largest piano that you can afford for that space. If that's a C3, so be it, but don't jump until you've examined all the variables.

I have a Steinway D (9') in my studio and I get a majority of my business because of it. I cater to a niche market, though, so YMMV as to how much business it brings in. I do mainly classical and jazz with occasional rock/pop sessions.

A great acoustic piano in a good space is a wondrous thing to behold. The harmonic content is like a Niagra Falls of sonic delight.

Cheers,
--
Don

[Jamz]

Originally Posted by idylldon

A great acoustic piano in a good space is a wondrous thing to behold. The harmonic content is like a Niagra Falls of sonic delight.

Cheers,
--
Don

Dam Don! You should sell pianos. Nice picture

[themaidsroom]

Originally Posted by Jules

A real piano has 'magic' and can inspire an artist to a) make use of it, b) have an enchanting time messing around with it while at your studio c) rack up extra hours trying to incorporate it into their session when they hadn't planned on it.

i would definitely get the steinway B and not the yamaha
i have had a steinway K upright grand for three years or so and it is an
amazing thing - the steinway K has so much depth and vibe - i get piano people from many
major manhattan grand piano rooms as they have pianos with less personality


possibility is really about the moment - right there -
what is ready to go when someone gets a take they did not think was
possible because the stars have aligned, and they hear a piano where
they had not previously, and there is an amazing, tuned piano ready
to go.....


be well


- jack

[jimmyjimjim]

Don't by Yamaha. They have as much soul as a sample. Take the time, do the research on great pianos and wait for the right deal to turn up!

[idylldon]

Originally Posted by Jamz

Dam Don! You should sell pianos. Nice picture

Actually, I only tune/tech them.

If you're referring to my avatar picture, it's a face from Pompeii that I found very compelling, so I took a picture of it.

Cheers,
--
Don

[blackwatch5805]

good question. i hate recording sampled or midi piano. nothing does it like the real thing. i've been using room mic so much lately on piano tracks so i can't imagine having to go back to midi. why don't you split the difference? find a used baby grand that is in good shape. keep it tuned. i think most of the clientele will be plenty satisfied with any baby grand that sounds descent and stays in tune. good luck!

[leaper]

It seems clear at this point in time that choosing the piano will probably be difficult...also check out this GS thread:Favorite Accoustic Pianos
(Hmmm...actually not sure if i imported the link correctly..sorry if it doesn't work! use the search...also with spelling mistake!)
One of the advantages of leasing pianos is that you will be able to change piano choice if necessary. In my studio it took 3 goes before we got a piano that blew everyone away and attracted lots of customers just by word of mouth....i'm repeating what i said in the above mentioned thread. Check it out.

[leaper]

okay.. the link worked!! And while rereading the thread, i see it's some of the same names posting on both..i guess it's something about reading the word "piano" that brings a warm feeling to our hearts.

[Jamz]

I certainly appreciate everyones opinions. Thanks.
Looks like it might be wiser to find a great deal on a used piano and hold out for a C7 or perhaps even a Steinway (doubtful though). The C7 seems to be well accepted amongst musicians...most anyway...and a mainstay in many studios. They're also not too difficult to locate on the used market for seemingly fair prices.

Does anyone lease their piano instead of own/finance?

[bigos]

there are tons of great steinways on craigslist, I saw about 5-7 on chicago craigslist recently, some of them seemed to be good buys. steinways are expensive when they are refurbished. the refurbishing process can cost about 2-4 times the cost of an unrefurbished one. I have seen many older steinways that had several years left in them for under 15,000 dollars. I recently purchased a steinway upright off of craigslist for 2000 dollars. it was from 1906 and was in great condition, the strings looked almost new and there was only one slight fracture in the soundboard the sound was huge on it also. So it might be worth your while to look around before getting a new yamaha that wont retain its value at all.

[leaper]

Originally Posted by bigos

So it might be worth your while to look around before getting a new yamaha that wont retain its value at all.

is that really so? i always thought that all grand pianos held their value pretty well...i seem to recall that we sold our C7 after around 7 years use for a good sum of money...things could have changed, i guess.

[mohthom]

ALWAYS haggle over the price of new Yamaha pianos . . .

[SocietyOfMind]

I know this is a slutty forum, but I don't quite understand the Yamaha bashing. Yamaha grands are my absolute favourites for a meaty, aggressive piano sound that you can really dig your hands into. They're a delight to play - the sound positively shoots out. Perfect for rock and most jazz (and much classical music, too).

The Boesendorfers have their own unique thing going on, too - they have a brilliant, singing top end, and a huge tonal variation with velocity (from ppp to fff you wouldn't believe you're playing the same instrument). They would be my choice for Mozart or Debussy.

The Steinways are, of course, great instruments - probably closer to Yamaha than Boesendorfer. They can possibly provide a bit more tonal variation than the Yamahas.

I've seen Kawais on a number of recordings, too. In my limited experience with them, they're slightly "thinner" (not in a bad way) - filling up less of the frequency spectrum. They're great for jazz or where you need a piano that "plays nicely" with other instruments.

I would stay away from the Chinese instruments, unless you're absolutely certain of what you're getting into. They may sound great one month and lose their tuning entirely the next. Of course, you should really have the instrument tuned before each session, too

[seaneldon]

I certainly wouldn't put a Grand Piano on the ceiling...

[joelpatterson]

You wouldn't dance on the ceiling either, but some do.

[RichS]

Originally Posted by seaneldon

I certainly wouldn't put a Grand Piano on the ceiling...

Yes, but... is not a grand piano located on the second floor of a studio simultaneously located "on the ceiling" of the first floor?

Happy Zen New Year!

[Herman Munster]

I, like many here, am a piano player 1st and inadequate (but getting there) recording engineer 2nd. There is nothing more inspiring than a real piano to play and sampling it well is difficult. The fact that there are so many decent sampled pianos out there does not make this a necessity for any studio IMO. However, most good pianists and engineers can tell the difference.

Being a piano player, I plan on buying a full grand for my home studio in the next year or two. However, this is not to attract clients, but for my own enjoyment (and to record!). So, if you play, I'd definitely buy one. The other question would be, how many more clients would you get by having a real grand. If the answer is 10-15 more a year then it might be worth it. Otherwise probably not.

As far as the argument about what piano to buy. This is simply a matter of taste. While I like Steinways, most I've heard sound great in jazz or classical music, but don't do so great with rock/pop stuff. Yamahas, on the other hand, tend to be a bit brighter depending on the piano and do better IMO in pop/rock oriented music. I also like them with jazz/blues and classical. I would also agree with the poster above that I have heard some Baldwins (I think Bruce Hornsby used to play Baldwins) that sound fantastic. Kawai's tend to be very dark and I don't care for them much.
IMO, a Bosendorfer is simply not worth the $$$ unless you're a absolutely kick butt pianist..... I also have a friend who plays a Schimmel (?sp) and loves it. I've heard some stuff he recorded with it and it's a little dark for me.

I will likely buy a Yamaha C7 when I make the plunge. A C7 will definitely get you some business...