Overheads/drums

[Froombosch]

Hello Mike,

How do you apporoach drums? especially overheads. Do you work a lot with close miking and use the overheads only for cymbals or do you use the 2 or three mikes option?

Thanks a lot.


Harrie

[shipshape]

I don't track drums much there days but I sure did my fair share , I did pretty much the standard stuff ,but I would always use a riser , but speaking of overheads and mic'ing I remember a great experience I had once as an assistant on a "Who" session and I was asking Bill Price the engineer about how he had the overheads set up and he stopped the band between takes to change the overheads to a different configuration so that I could hear the difference in perspective. I could not believe he would go to those measures to demonstrate but he was a master at drum sounds as well as a true mentor and the beauty of working in England as an assistant in the "70's was that the house engineers in the top studios who were all exceptional , would happily pass on their craft which is something that does not really exist in the studios these days as the studio system is so different now.

[chrisso]

Originally posted by shipshape
I would always use a riser.
The beauty of working in England as an assistant in the "70's was that the house engineers in the top studios who were all exceptional

I've worked with a few of those 'house engineers' and their protege's and they really are outstanding ............and so easy to work with, no drumsound dramas.
Mike, why always use a riser?
Any favourite bass drum mics?
Thanks

[Steved]

I usually use small diaphragm condensers for overheads. This seems to be the norm for quick detailed response and a more focused pickup pattern.

The popular exceptions to this seem to be matched pairs of:

AKG C414 B-ULS
Audio Technica 4050

Can anyone comment the mics above for overheads and how they compare with SD condensers for that purpose?

[LTA]

Originally posted by chrisso
Mike, why always use a riser?
Any favourite bass drum mics?
Thanks

Not sure what his answer will be, but there are a few reasons.

First, using a riser keeps the kick drum from coupling with the floor. If the floor gets vibrating excessively, everything touching it starts ringing too. But more importantly, it is decreasing the output of the kick. Oddly, the riser itself can/will vibrate and acts as a sort of LF speaker (more so with stage risers). But with a riser, the kick will sustain a bit longer, and bleed (through conduction) less.

Second, it moves the kick and drumset away from the universal floor node. It changes how the drumset excites the room in the lower frequencies. If your kick is too boomy, move it off the floor and it will clear up some.

And don't forget the pyschological affect of putting a drummer on a pedestal. You won't have to worry about their spurs scratching up your nice wood floor either.

And, hmm, if you were really bored or had enough assistants, you could move the drumset around the room while getting sounds. Put the riser on the dolly, and you could get some doppler sounds during tracking, until the drummer gets motion sickness. This is really reaching but i'm sure there are some other good reasons.

[shipshape]

I like a riser 'cos of how the bottom end of the kit is fatter and for the physical reason LTA mentioned in terms of sound. It definately changes the room sound also.

[blackcatdigi]

Originally posted by LTA
Not sure what his answer will be, but there are a few reasons.

First, using a riser keeps the kick drum from coupling with the floor. If the floor gets vibrating excessively, everything touching it starts ringing too. But more importantly, it is decreasing the output of the kick. Oddly, the riser itself can/will vibrate and acts as a sort of LF speaker (more so with stage risers). But with a riser, the kick will sustain a bit longer, and bleed (through conduction) less.

Second, it moves the kick and drumset away from the universal floor node. It changes how the drumset excites the room in the lower frequencies. If your kick is too boomy, move it off the floor and it will clear up some.

Valid points.

Now that this subject has been brought up, I DO recall ALWAYS being happier with the (acoustic) sound of my kit(s) up on a riser (as opposed to down on the floor); The kick in particular always seemed louder, punchier and just much better defined, in general.

I could see this being quite advantageous in the studio, as well as having the side-benefit of cutting down the physical transference... Hhhmmm.

Allrighty, gotta go build a riser!

[enharmonic]

Ship,

What was it like listening to Keith Moon track those drum parts? The man was so explosive! Was he like that all ofthe time, or did it take work to get him blasting those beats?

Keith Moon is one of my all time favorite drummers.

[RKrizman]

Interesting points about the riser. My favorite drum room in L.A. has always been Sound City, where the drums always go on a small riser in the same spot in the room. I haven't been there in awhile, but I'm tempted to go out there just to have a look and build one just like it.

(Of course, I'll have to build a slightly higher one for the girl singer.)

-R

[chrisso]

I've always had good results just setting up on a wood floor.
The only place I remember using a riser was the main room at Air (Oxford St).

[Froombosch]

Cool information! thanks a lot! I'll go and build a little riser. How high should it be? Or is 2 ft enough?

Is the effect as described also because of combfilering from the floor?


Harrie

Sorry for my bad Ebglish - it is not my native language .

[LTA]

Originally posted by Froombosch
Is the effect as described also because of combfilering from the floor?

No. The higher frequency discrete floor echoes will be bouncing off the top of the riser, and will still combine with the direct sound giving some comb filtering. But, floor echoes are natural sounding so it isn't of primary concern. Best way to alter this is to change the surface the drums are set up on. Carpet, metal, plywood and interns are the most common addition.

I've got a quick experiment that will take a minute of setup time next time you track anything. Set up 2 mics pointed straight into the wall. Have one mic maybe 12 inches away, and the second mic 2 feet away from the wall. Any condenser mic will work, but try cardioids as i feel it isolates the "effect" the most. With cardioids, point the null at the source (while keeping the mic perpendicular to the wall). Play some drums, and a/b the 2 mics solo. This gives a decent representation of what altering the distance of the drumkit to the floor boundary using a riser would achieve. Remember though, that you are listening for the change between the two mics, and not the absolute sound quality.

And as a partial joke, i have an equation i just made up. Units are in feet. (Riser Height)=(Ceiling Height)/5 - (1 foot). So, with 10 foot ceilings, you'd have 10/5 - 1 for a riser height of 1 foot. You won't find this in a book, but i feel it is a defendable statement. Call it "LTA's drum riser equation" Knowing my luck, it is already commonly accepted knowledge :(

[Steved]

Originally posted by Steved
I usually use small diaphragm condensers for overheads. This seems to be the norm for quick detailed response and a more focused pickup pattern.

The popular exceptions to this seem to be matched pairs of:

AKG C414 B-ULS
Audio Technica 4050

Can anyone comment the mics above for overheads and how they compare with SD condensers for that purpose?

<bump>

Mike... can you comment on this?

Anybody?

[Studio Addict]

Originally posted by LTA
And as a partial joke, i have an equation i just made up. Units are in feet. (Riser Height)=(Ceiling Height)/5 - (1 foot). So, with 10 foot ceilings, you'd have 10/5 - 1 for a riser height of 1 foot. You won't find this in a book, but i feel it is a defendable statement. Call it "LTA's drum riser equation" Knowing my luck, it is already commonly accepted knowledge :(

I've been considering building/adding a drum riser for awhile now. Your equation seems like it would make great sense in my live room. I do have a few other questions for those of you who are knowledgeable about drum risers:

1. Does the riser need to have some "give" to the build in order to generate the sympathetic resonances? Would it be wrong to build it rock solid?

2. Would 2x4s and 3/4" plywood work for construction materials?

3. Does it need to be open underneath or can the "sides" be closed?

I want to do this correctly and get the maximum benefit from the riser, hence all the detailed questions!

Thanks very much

[shipshape]

The riser need a very little "give" and keep the sides open , try your ambience mic's positioned lower in the room to help pick up some of the cool bottom end when u try it out.

[LTA]

Originally posted by Studio Addict
1. Does the riser need to have some "give" to the build in order to generate the sympathetic resonances? Would it be wrong to build it rock solid?

2. Would 2x4s and 3/4" plywood work for construction materials?

3. Does it need to be open underneath or can the "sides" be closed?

1. The riser is raising the drums into the air more than anything else. Don't skimp on construction, but don't feel the need to pour concrete.

2. That combination would work. Frame it like a house, with maybe 12 inch centers. You want a solid platform, not a treehouse. The structure has to inspire confidence that it won't collapse with every hit of the drumkit. 2x6's are pretty useful for the base, as they can help prevent 'rocking' of the platform. Screws creak less than nails too. Gluing the joints can help reduce squeaks also.

3. Leave it open. If cosmetics dictate the sides be covered, use cloth. Black spraypaint can work wonders too.

Mr. Shipley's comment about overhead placement is great. Low means lower than you'd think While you are experimenting, make sure you try putting the room mics a 1-2 feet off the ground (in a 10' high room). I'm not a mind reader, but that height range has worked for me. I don't want to call it "natural-sounding," but I can't think of a better phrase.

[Drumsound]

I made a riser with the Auralex "Platfoam" which are like dense foam 2x4s. I'd lay them down and put plywood on them. I could easily take them up. I set up for practice one day after I had the riser out of the way. (I thought the drums sounded better in the room and I haven't set up the riser since. I need to try again.

[Inky Goddess]

Originally posted by LTA
...i have an equation i just made up. Units are in feet. (Riser Height)=(Ceiling Height)/5 - (1 foot). So, with 10 foot ceilings, you'd have 10/5 - 1 for a riser height of 1 foot.

LTA's Theorem:
R=(C/5)-1
where R=riser height and C=ceiling height.

got it. thanx.

[LTA]

Originally posted by Inky Goddess
LTA's Theorem:
R=(C/5)-1
where R=riser height and C=ceiling height.

got it. thanx.

Heh, thanks for humoring me

[Inky Goddess]

hey, i'm no acoustical engineer, nor a hot-shot mathematician, but
if it's discovered that this equation has actual value, you should get proper credit for it! and now it's in proper algebraic form...
if i haven't shanghaied any standard variables from any other disciplines.

[LTA]

Originally posted by Inky Goddess
hey, i'm no acoustical engineer, nor a hot-shot mathematician, but
if it's discovered that this equation has actual value, you should get proper credit for it! and now it's in proper algebraic form...
if i haven't shanghaied any standard variables from any other disciplines.

C would probably end up being 'Y sub c'. I think C has another connotation (but not as much as c). Then, for consistency, R would end up being Y sub r. (wish you could use sub- and superscript here) Then i'd have to define the (1) term a bit more It may not quite be masters thesis material, but I haven't seen anything better yet.

Still waiting for somebody to use a foot high riser in a 10 foot tall room and say it made the drums sound worse than they did on the floor (or a 3 foot stage riser).

BTW, i still need to present the total argument before you can call it a theorem. I've got enough research, theory, and practical experience to make it one, but i haven't presented them yet. And i probably won't until my PM box begins overloading with requests. Nobody cares about drums and risers. They all want to talk about pyramix and summing grudge