Problem with a new Toft ATB24

[Ciozzi]

The board is brand new, just arrived. There's an annoying buzz on every output of the console (balanced or unbalanced) much higher than the normal noise floor. If I just bring the master fader up to the 0 position with all the inputs muted the buzz is already noticeable at a very reasonable volume.

Anyone that has already experienced this problem ?

[HiString]

Have you attempted to contact PMI about this, and if you're going to post about it on a forum, why not do so on PMI's own forum............admittedly, it is not exactly a hive of activity but it would seem the logical choice

[motown67]

Sounds like you may have a grounding issue. You might want to try the Star Grounding technique to resolve this issue. You can find info on how to do this in the ATB manual. Good Luck.

[Ciozzi]

Originally Posted by HiString

Have you attempted to contact PMI about this, and if you're going to post about it on a forum, why not do so on PMI's own forum............admittedly, it is not exactly a hive of activity but it would seem the logical choice

Nope, I haven't yet, but as expected on this forum I got several replies in few minutes

Anyway thanks for the suggestion, I'm gonna have the next session in a hour and I'll try the star grounding.

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by Ciozzi

The board is brand new, just arrived. There's an annoying buzz on every output of the console (balanced or unbalanced) much higher than the normal noise floor. If I just bring the master fader up to the 0 position with all the inputs muted the buzz is already noticeable at a very reasonable volume.

Anyone that has already experienced this problem ?

Hi

Way back I was invited to look at a problem with a studio that had a large Mackie console. They had terrible hum problems... and none of it was to do with the Mackie... it was all the lousy way they had wired up all the outboard equipment.... a mixture of no grounds and those spawn from Satan ground lifting adaptors.

I suspect the same may apply in your studio and I agree with the other posters, you would have been better off contacting the manufacturer directly.

[dan p]

I have a 32 ch toft.There is a screw in the back of the console that you have to crank down.Look in your manual and it will tell you where it is.It did help with my ground a bit,but your other gear may also be causing you additional problems as well.Good Luck!

Dan P

[Ciozzi]

Well, thanks for the suggestions. I will contact the local distributor for assistance. Anyway the problem is not caused by the outboard for sure, since the buzz is always there even with just the master output fader up, all the channels muted and all the other equiment turned off.

Thanks again

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by Ciozzi

Well, thanks for the suggestions. I will contact the local distributor for assistance. Anyway the problem is not caused by the outboard for sure, since the buzz is always there even with just the master output fader up, all the channels muted and all the other equiment turned off.

Thanks again

Hi

The only way you can say "for sure" is to disconnect all the outboard equipment from the console and just use headphones or the monitor amps.

Let us know what the fix is.... and you might check if there are any thyristor/triac light dimmers in the vacinity. I looked at a new SSL 9000 installation with chronic buzz/hum on the bus output and it was light dimmers. I could post a photo of the scope trace.

[Ciozzi]

Originally Posted by Geoff_T

Hi

The only way you can say "for sure" is to disconnect all the outboard equipment from the console and just use headphones or the monitor amps.

Let us know what the fix is.... and you might check if there are any thyristor/triac light dimmers in the vacinity. I looked at a SSL 9000 with chronic buzz/hum on the bus ouput and it was light dimmers. I could post a photo of the scope trace.

Tomorrow I'll connect the console directly to the monitors. I'll let you know if the problem is still there!

thanks again

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by Ciozzi

Tomorrow I'll connect the console directly to the monitors. I'll let you know if the problem is still there!

thanks again

Hi

Yes, and check that ground screw (or whatever) the other poster mentioned. It may need to be grounded via this screw (like a vintage Neve) but PMI could tell you for sure.

[kats]

Tomorrow I'll connect the console directly to the monitors. I'll let you know if the problem is still there!

Don't discount the monitors btw. By any chance are you using Tannoys?

[alanhyatt]

Geoff Tanner has offered the best solution for you right now, and I will suggest you do this. Unplug everything that is plugged into the console...I mean everything, so nothing is plugged in. Then turn on the console with nothing plugged in and put a pair of headphones into the headphone jack.... If there is buzz, then some issue has come up and we will be happy to help you with the problem.

If you hear nothing in the headphones, no buzz at all...then your problem is in your wiring, or your grounding. The ground screw is now on the power supply, not the console. It is there to be sure you are grounding everything to the console, so you can attach a ground wire from all you equipment racks directly to the console....

Let me know what you find....we are happy to help as much as we can, but we need to trace this buzz to find out if it is the console or not...

[Ciozzi]

Originally Posted by kats

Don't discount the monitors btw. By any chance are you using Tannoys?

I'm using a pair of ADAM S3A's. Why?

[Ciozzi]

Originally Posted by alanhyatt

Geoff Tanner has offered the best solution for you right now, and I will suggest you do this. Unplug everything that is plugged into the console...I mean everything, so nothing is plugged in. Then turn on the console with nothing plugged in and put a pair of headphones into the headphone jack.... If there is buzz, then some issue has come up and we will be happy to help you with the problem.

If you hear nothing in the headphones, no buzz at all...then your problem is in your wiring, or your grounding. The ground screw is now on the power supply, not the console. It is there to be sure you are grounding everything to the console, so you can attach a ground wire from all you equipment racks directly to the console....

Let me know what you find....we are happy to help as much as we can, but we need to trace this buzz to find out if it is the console or not...

Just did that. Physically unplugged everything but the console from the wall, unplugged the cable from the console as well, used a pair of headphones to monitor but the buzz is still there...

I live in italy, do I have to contact my local distributor ?

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by Ciozzi

Just did that. Physically unplugged everything but the console from the wall, unplugged the cable from the console as well, used a pair of headphones to monitor but the buzz is still there...

I live in italy, do I have to contact my local distributor ?

Hi

Don't forget my point about light dimmers... if it can affect an SSL9000 pro installation, it can also affect yours.

When you can't see the obvious cause of a problem, look around for less obvious reasons. I use a regular coil of equipment wire as a search coil on an oscilloscope. In one (basement) studio with hum issues I detected a huge EMF field in the ceiling... that was under the sidewalk and under a huge power cable that fed the rest of the 10 storey building that contained machinery operating businesses...

They had to get the power cable re-routed....

I suggest you move the console temporally to another location and test it again.

[soundrage]

Originally Posted by Geoff_T

Hi

I suggest you move the console temporally to another location and test it again.

The lights in my studio are controlled by a dimmer switch and my Alesis mixer was picking up noise. No problem in another location though. I bought one of the new Yamaha N12's and it picks up no noise at all from the lights. I have no idea about the Toft but in the case of my Alesis I would think it was not designed right, perhaps not a good PCB layout in that it doesn't have enough shielding. The Toft is in a much different league than that crappy Alesis mixer so hopefully a solution will be found.

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by soundrage

The lights in my studio are controlled by a dimmer switch and my Alesis mixer was picking up noise. No problem in another location though. I bought one of the new Yamaha N12's and it picks up no noise at all from the lights. I have no idea about the Toft but in the case of my Alesis I would think it was not designed right, perhaps not a good PCB layout in that it doesn't have enough shielding. The Toft is in a much different league than that crappy Alesis mixer so hopefully a solution will be found.

Hi

You know, if you want to find solutions to problems you must remain open minded and ditch any preconceived assumptions re causes of issues. I've already stated that an SSL console had issues with light dimmers and I have dealt with Neve studios with the same problem. It has nothing to do with "crappy build" quality and everything to do with the environment you are working in.

If you use electronic light dimmers you are playing Russian Roulette with your studio environment. Some equipment with short circuit paths and low (relative) gain may not be affected but others, especially with long mix busses, can be affected.

Light dimmers affect your equipment in two ways...

1. The radiated signal form your wiring
2. By modulating your ac power with the switching spikes.

Rather than gamble on equipment being impervious to this interference (which can affect consoles costing hundreds or thousands times the price you've paid for the Toft) you should be applying thought to removing the cause.

Professional studios use Variac (adjustable transformers) for the light dimming.

You can prove that this is an issue by taking the console to another building.... I also forgot to ask if you have any industrial or car repair premises near your studio and using the same local power transformer?

[soundrage]

Originally Posted by Geoff_T

Hi

You know, if you want to find solutions to problems you must remain open minded and ditch any preconceived assumptions re causes of issues. I've already stated that an SSL console had issues with light dimmers and I have dealt with Neve studios with the same problem. It has nothing to do with "crappy build" quality and everything to do with the environment you are working in.

If you use electronic light dimmers you are playing Russian Roulette with your studio environment. Some equipment with short circuit paths and low (relative) gain may not be affected but others, especially with long mix busses, can be affected.

Light dimmers affect your equipment in two ways...

1. The radiated signal form your wiring
2. By modulating your ac power with the switching spikes.

I agree with what your saying/

But the design of the electronics can most certainly affect it. We (Aircraft company) deal with these issues in Flight Control system electronics where Ground shielding is of the utmost importance. We have a bad board layout we cannot pass EMC testing and lightning test, and also run inot potential RF problems. I have seen what poor shielding can do. The only point (and most likely the Toft has been designed very well) I was making was reference to a mixer that picks up noise and another one (substantially more expensive and most likely more care to ground shielding) where it does not pick up any noise. That same mixer also has some crosstalk problems and I can just about guarantee the PCB's could be designed better...but at what cost of course.

Completely agree that the dimmer switch should not be used in a studio. I inherited the room I'm in but usually use incandescent light when working.

[soundrage]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

This is true. Another way to determine stray EMI fields is to use an EMI detector, known as a Fender Stratocaster. Walk around the room with it and point it at the walls, ceiling, etc. You will find the EMI gremlins easily.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

LOL, been there!

[alanhyatt]

Originally Posted by Ciozzi

Just did that. Physically unplugged everything but the console from the wall, unplugged the cable from the console as well, used a pair of headphones to monitor but the buzz is still there...

I live in italy, do I have to contact my local distributor ?

Ciozzi,

What I will ask you to do is contact our head tech Geoff Onslow at our UK office at:

PMI Audio UK
4, Minerva Court,
Woodland Court,
Woodlands Industrial Estate,
Torquay, Devon. TQ2 7BD

tel: +44 01803 – 612700
fax: +44 01803 – 612009
geoff@pmiaudio.com

We will need to know what dealer or distributor sold you this console. You will need your Serial number when you contact Geoff as well as a copy of your sales receipt for warranty work, so be sure you can either fax or scan and e-mail the sales receipt from the dealer.

Anything is possible and as soon as you call and get the details we need, we can start to help you resolve it. If you bought it locally from Feel Audio our Italian distributor, or a local retail shop, you should also contact them to let them know. If you bought out of the country, you will need to notify that dealer as well....

I am sorry for the problem, but we will get to the bottom of this for you as soon as possible. Our UK office is closed for New Years and will reopen on the 2nd of January...

[Ciozzi]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

This is true. Another way to determine stray EMI fields is to use an EMI detector, known as a Fender Stratocaster. Walk around the room with it and point it at the walls, ceiling, etc. You will find the EMI gremlins easily.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

This is really a good one. I will try it for sure!

[leaper]

Good luck Luca... i feel for you man...i'm sure things will sort out soon. Let us know what the issue was. does sound like it's probably grounding.

[heyman]

Hey, how about a hand for Geoff Tanner and Jim coming in here and doing a good deed...?

This is what makes me come back to forum.. Thank you...!

Geoff, will you be running for President in 08' ?

[alanhyatt]

Originally Posted by heyman

Hey, how about a hand for Geoff Tanner and Jim coming in here and doing a good deed...?

This is what makes me come back to forum.. Thank you...!

Geoff, will you be running for President in 08' ?

Geoff gets my vote!

[Ciozzi]

Today when I posted my message I was in a rush and didn't have time to thank Geoff and Jim for all the posts and the time they took to reply.

This is not just being kind... but really passionate about your own job!

The next thing I'll do is to move the console to another place and test it again. If things are not going well yet, I'll contact the PMI audio tech in the UK.

In the while I take the chance to give you my best regards!

Happy new year slutz!

Luca

[Ciozzi]

Originally Posted by leaper

Good luck Luca... i feel for you man...i'm sure things will sort out soon. Let us know what the issue was. does sound like it's probably grounding.

Hi Danny,

After a good vacation there's always something that ruins all the benefits you took from it.

...maybe... do you know murphy ?

[leaper]

Me and Murphy go back a long time... he was my godfather..right now i'm staring at 2 broken mixer channels, an aux bus that will and then won't, a reverb unit that this evening decided to cut one channel by 12 dB and an eventide that hisses and spits in protest after it's been on for more than one hour.....why do we do these things to ourselves??

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by heyman

Hey, how about a hand for Geoff Tanner and Jim coming in here and doing a good deed...?

This is what makes me come back to forum.. Thank you...!

Geoff, will you be running for President in 08' ?

Hi

No, I have other more important engagements for 2008, I'm afraid, particularly to this beautiful lady!

The Whitehouse will have to wait!

[vixapphire]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

This is true. Another way to determine stray EMI fields is to use an EMI detector, known as a Fender Stratocaster. Walk around the room with it and point it at the walls, ceiling, etc. You will find the EMI gremlins easily.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

hilarious!

oh, and don't forget to plug the strat into an amp and turn it up a bit first. otherwise, it may only succeed at pointing you in the direction of water...

[vixapphire]

Originally Posted by heyman

Hey, how about a hand for Geoff Tanner and Jim coming in here and doing a good deed...?

This is what makes me come back to forum.. Thank you...!

Geoff, will you be running for President in 08' ?

don't forget A. Hyatt. i saw his sig and was thinking, "what a great forum this place is; you never know who you're gonna run into, but chances are it'll be someone in a position to assist, even at 8:51 p.m. on a Friday night..."