The Rule of Thirds - Dave Pensado - Can anyone explain

[borism]

Im watching a waves video with a interview with Dave Pensado that came in a box of a plugin I got,
Very ineteresting to listen to his point of views about mixing and the industry.
But i came across a coment he makes regarding "the Rule of Thirds"
I havent heard of a rule of thirds in mixing, but pensado referes to it as his rule to mix
He explains that people preffer to see the eyes of a face one third from the top of the screen or one third from the bottom of the picture but never right in the middle.
He doesnt whant to explain how to apply that "rule or concept" to mixing as he doesnt whant to "give it away"
I can kind of see the relation of tis rule to mixing as in relation of low end mid and iend, but , can anyone explain this?
Maybe someone watched it and have some insight
i did some search here but nothing came up directtly related to this interview or subgect
thanks in advance
B

[Kiwiburger]

Very interesting idea. I haven't seen the video and I have no clue what he's talking about. But the thought about not placing the focus of attention centrally rings true with me.

At a guess - I wonder if he is refering to the common practice of panning the key elements of a mix dead centre? The vocal, snare, kick and bass are typically panned dead centre, which I think is a dead boring thing to do. I wonder if he is implying that he pans the important sounds + or - 33%?

Maybe it applies to the spectral balance as well ... i'll have to think about that.

Probably applies to depth as well as width ... very interesting concept to play with.

[borism]

Yes
Your ideas also ring to me aswell intituively offcourse, but ive never heard of a Rule of thirds aplied directly to mixing
it can be the ballance of bass, mid and treble in proportion to each other..
Depth in relation to hiend (less hiend the further back it feels)
any more opinions?
Merry Xmas BTW
B

[peeder]

The rule of thirds has to do with things like the golden section and how we perceive beauty visually. It's a guideline on how to crop a photograph, so that the points of interest are at the intersection of two "thirds" segments of the frame. So e.g. you might have the horizon line 1/3 or 2/3 of the way down the frame. It provides a "classic" look to the composition.

I doubt he pans the vocal or snare or bass, but what he might be referring to is keeping everything a bit offset and none of the elements dominating each other. In a photograph where the subject is dead center, it dominates everything else and looks like a snapshot or a documentary photo of a specimen. By keeping things in check you create more of an art about it, you can see the ensemble as a whole rather than just a voice with some things around it.

How specifically he solves this problem I don't know and would have to listen to his mixes to tell.

I do like the idea of cross-disciplinary learning...applying the lessons of one medium to another. You can do this with cooking and audio too, for instance, avoiding the amateurish overuse of spices and applying maxims like "if it doesn't add, it subtracts."

[picksail]

Kick, snare and bass = the "nose"

[duckoff]

He was prolly just trying to sound clever & enigmatic :-)

[Mitch Deason]

I saw the same video and assumed he meant panning. That you don't have to put so many things dead center.

There was a similar thread about how lot's of older records really worked the two stereo channels and didn't have so much coming up the middle.

Was listening to Funk #49 the other day and noticed it had guitar hard to one side and bass hard to the other.
Think I've noticed a lot of interesting panning in some of those old Sly and the Family Stone records, too.

I think that's all very cool... but then I go to the gym and their "professional" sound system is playing right channel in one room and left in the another. Making tunes like that sound pretty screwy!

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by peeder

The rule of thirds has to do with things like the golden section and how we perceive beauty visually. It's a guideline on how to crop a photograph, so that the points of interest are at the intersection of two "thirds" segments of the frame. So e.g. you might have the horizon line 1/3 or 2/3 of the way down the frame. It provides a "classic" look to the composition.

I too assumed he was talking loosely and crudely about Phi - the golden ratio - Golden ratio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by Mitch Deason

Think I've noticed a lot of interesting panning in some of those old Sly and the Family Stone records, too.

A lot of it is probably purely accidental, especially when considering how many drugs were around.

But it worked because the musicianship and groove were still coming through.

If somebody wants to re-create the mood and sonics of say 'There's a riot going on' today, then it's a thought-out process of trying to emulate something that happened very haphazardly.

I'm sure that Sly didn't set out to be 'lo-fi' or 'experimental', it's just the way that these records turned out because they reflected his talent, surroundings, political and personal circumstances, etc.

[paultools]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

A lot of it is probably purely accidental, especially when considering how many drugs were around.

You are kidding, right?

[rghose]

Haven't quite figured out how it relates to mixing yet but here's an article about how the rule of thirds relates to photography:

Rule of Thirds

It's got me very interested though...I often find it useful to take philosophies from other art forms and then relate them to music.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by travisbrown

I too assumed he was talking loosely and crudely about Phi - the golden ratio - Golden ratio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course, the golden ratio has nothing to do with actual thirds... but... the thinking here parallels the frequently held notion that there are pleasing ratios between design elements that can serve as guidelines for design.


Building my first stereo just before my teen years -- and being bugged by the clumsy mixing on a lot of early stereo releases (some newer mainstream/pop tunes were often mixed for stereo -- but rock in the early days of stereo was often produced by overdubs and often pingponging on 3 and sometimes 4 track recorders with the intent of making mono records -- so when it was remixed for stereo it was often absurd -- rhythm section on one side, bu vocals and sweeteners on the other and lead vocal and lead sax/guitar/etc in the middle -- I reacted strongly against the artificial stereo.

And for a long time, I mixed with very conservative panning -- not putting anything on the extreme left or right, making sure there weas just enough stereo on the drums to make them fill no more than the middle third of the stereo field (I still lean toward that) but not even putting individual instruments hard left or right.

It was very naturalistic -- but ultimately I decided it was kinda boring.

After that, I started breaking my own rules, putting elements off to the side -- sometimes even hard right or left. And I liked what it did with my mixes, opening them up and, yes, making them a little less "reality-bound"... I decided that wasn't such a bad thing.

But I have to say I still don't like trap drum kits that stretch from speaker to speaker -- it drives me nuts.

[jnorman]

nothing valuable to add here - just wanted to mention that in your subject line, you left the "h" off the end of the word "Teh". carry on...

[bgrotto]

Maybe he means hard-panning everything that isn't center?

I've heard one of the Lord-Alge bros (Chris, I think) say he only ever hard-pans. I don't know that it's 100% true, in fact I doubt it, but who the hell knows. Maybe people do that.

I'm just guessing, though. What the hell do I know.

[Alexi]

great interview by the way, pensado is funny as hell.

Waves Artists | Inner View | Dave Pensado

[doorknocker]

Fantastic interview!!!

BTW, my very first guitar teacher looked EXACTLY like Dave (I'm sure it wasn't him though..)

[Remoteness]

Rule of thirds - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia as a rule of thumb in visual arts...

I trust we can apply this to our environment.

[Eldhrimnir]

Originally Posted by Mitch Deason

I think that's all very cool... but then I go to the gym and their "professional" sound system is playing right channel in one room and left in the another. Making tunes like that sound pretty screwy!

Haha! I experienced that at a mansion/hotel where they had this relax/sauna/massage area.
It must have been really comforting for the customers to listen to their favourite beatles album while getting a massage, and only hearing the drums. Priceless.
Fortunately for me, I was just drinking beer in the jacuzzi at the time

/Daniel

[ryst]

I watched the interview......

(Referring to Christina Aguilera) "Damn, that bitch can sing"....LOLOLOL!!!!!

"You can't say piss in a Waves interview"?........LOLOLOL! That was after he called Christina a bitch!

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by picksail

Kick, snare and bass = the "nose"

Should be the "booty".

-R

[Dan]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

Should be the "booty".

-R

Thread resurrection.

1. I find this idea interesting, though I don't see an explanation here.

2. R.K. astutely points out that women's appearance follows the rule of thirds. Science!

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by borism

Im watching a waves video with a interview with Dave Pensado that came in a box of a plugin I got,
Very ineteresting to listen to his point of views about mixing and the industry.
But i came across a coment he makes regarding "the Rule of Thirds"
I havent heard of a rule of thirds in mixing, but pensado referes to it as his rule to mix
He explains that people preffer to see the eyes of a face one third from the top of the screen or one third from the bottom of the picture but never right in the middle.
He doesnt whant to explain how to apply that "rule or concept" to mixing as he doesnt whant to "give it away"
I can kind of see the relation of tis rule to mixing as in relation of low end mid and iend, but , can anyone explain this?
Maybe someone watched it and have some insight
i did some search here but nothing came up directtly related to this interview or subgect
thanks in advance
B

An interesting stone in the pond. I'm going to have to let that ripple for a while...

[spice house]

Originally Posted by Dan

Thread resurrection.

1. I find this idea interesting, though I don't see an explanation here.

2. R.K. astutely points out that women's appearance follows the rule of thirds. Science!

Its actually everywhere in all living things - its the ratio of every large to consecutive small bone in your finger, its all over your face (the closer to phi the more beautiful). heres a shitty example http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_BWOAaRhccT...proportion.jpg

the classic example audiophiles would know is the nautilus shell

Rule of thirds should be rule of phi! in film it looks much better to me. I'm going to try panning in thirds like that and see what happens

edit: positions would be 100 66 33 0 33 66 100 i guess

[McDingus]

That rule applies specifically to visuals as already pointed out.

NO it CANNOT be applied to music, just like you dont apply center panning to art. Put the vocal up the middle wouldn't make any sense in a painting...

Its a pathetic misuse of the concept, regardless of the intent.

Sure, don't balance everything perfectly, but the golden ratio is VERY VERY specific about its context... This is just an ignorant misuse.

But it sure makes him sound cool... Though as pointed out already, its not even thirds in actuality...

Its like using light year to describe the passage of time...

[Ricey]

works in the linear sense though...

[Dean Roddey]

Whenever I'm just kind of standing around somewhere, I think about where I figure I'm going to stand, then I move 1/3 to either side of that. I find that it works really well.

[ebulb]

i (personally) find these theories and the people trying their best to harvest formulas from the ether to be garbage most of the time and you are better off just learning to trust your intuition. dont sit there at your next mix and think, right i gotta pan something one third because thats what nature tells us we humans like the most, just search your minds eye and interpret that..

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by McDingus

That rule applies specifically to visuals as already pointed out.

NO it CANNOT be applied to music...

Except when it can.

Admittedly a much narrower scope than visual mediums, but Western music scales are based on Fibonacci sequences, Phi is evident in the structural divisions of some compositions of Debussy, Mozart, Beethoven, among those of others. I suspect the western scales were intuited through the natural inclination to the proportions of phi. Phi in the compositions of the composers above may in fact simply be coincidence rather than by design or intuition.

Charles Madden wrote a book on Phi and Fib in music. I haven't read it, though, so can't attest to its veracity or insight.

Nonetheless, I have no idea if usually pleasing aesthetic of phi translates into mixing or if the application of phi to the structure of music is of any actual aesthetic virtue. The worst thing you can do to phi is force it. Like you, I kind of think Pensado is misapplying the principle here, but whatever. If it makes him happy. He tends to know what he's doing.

[HarryHaller]

Originally Posted by McDingus

the golden ratio is VERY VERY specific about its context...

Long time lurker, but I had to register in order to comment on this.

I have never heard a more incorrect thing said about the golden ratio. The golden ratio is interesting precisely because of all the different contexts in which it is relevant.

Anything that can be divided into any ratio at all, including the width of the stereo field, the length of a song or its parts, dynamics between parts, intervals, etc. can be tastefully divided into this ratio. Google Debussy + Fibonacci, or Bartok + Fibonacci, to find musical examples. If you are desperate for more contemporary examples, they are easy to find, too.

Besides aesthetics and art, the golden proportion has found application in fields as various as mathematics, biology, psychology...even economics.

For whatever it's worth to you, I have a degree in mathematics from the University of Toronto, where I spent years studying it from every possible angle I could think of. It is absolutely elemental. It's context is the entire universe. How you could so emphatically believe the opposite is utterly beyond me.

indeed


woops...looks like I wasn't the first to comment...I was too shocked to keep reading I guess...my bad.

[coyotekells]

Originally Posted by peeder

The rule of thirds has to do with things like the golden section and how we perceive beauty visually. It's a guideline on how to crop a photograph, so that the points of interest are at the intersection of two "thirds" segments of the frame. So e.g. you might have the horizon line 1/3 or 2/3 of the way down the frame. It provides a "classic" look to the composition.

I doubt he pans the vocal or snare or bass, but what he might be referring to is keeping everything a bit offset and none of the elements dominating each other. In a photograph where the subject is dead center, it dominates everything else and looks like a snapshot or a documentary photo of a specimen. By keeping things in check you create more of an art about it, you can see the ensemble as a whole rather than just a voice with some things around it.

How specifically he solves this problem I don't know and would have to listen to his mixes to tell.

I do like the idea of cross-disciplinary learning...applying the lessons of one medium to another. You can do this with cooking and audio too, for instance, avoiding the amateurish overuse of spices and applying maxims like "if it doesn't add, it subtracts."

Exactly what he means imo.

Originally Posted by HarryHaller

How you could so emphatically believe the opposite is utterly beyond me.

indeed
[/I]

Harry, I thought that deserved a reply as well. Glad you addressed it.