Micing cab with condenser mic - any tips?

[DreamSound]

Hey guys, do you have any starting tips on micing a 4x12 cab with a condenser mic (M-Audio Sputnik) and SM57?

I recently purchased a Diezel Herbert amp and I'm trying to get the sound of DIEZEL Guitar Amplification: welcome to Diezel Amplification > sound clips > Vysion 'Breath of Life' Which is a really strong / present distortion but I'm not even close to that.

I'll be trying playing guitar with headphones on while moving both mics to find the sweet spot but I would appreciate some starting points regarding on where to locate the condenser mic (how close, use the O or 8 or U settings on the mic, 0dB or -10dB, etc)

[tINY]

You'll have to play with it. You do have a tube power amp in there, don't you? I hear output stage distortion and some iron in there....

Also, try rolling off the high end a little and make sure you have a big room - that low-end is smooth (and that's hard to do in a small room).



-tINY

[Mitch Deason]

I'm still working on capturing the high gain stuff, too. But I did quite a bit of expirementing last week and found one condenser placement I sort of liked.

I put on some closed-back headphones, turned the volume way up, chugged on the guitar, and found the money spot on the speaker as far as up / down and left / right. I locked the condenser into place there then pulled it back from the grille about an inch. Then I turned it in the shockmount about 45 degrees so it was sort of pointing to the outside of the cabinet. This seemed to take out the harsh highs that the condenser was doing too "good" of a job in picking up. I noticed I got a tad more "room" sound than I wanted for a metal-ish tone, though. So like the previous poster said, might help to have a big room and / or put some stuff round that direction to try and kill some bounces.

Still trying to figure out the correct volume for the amp. There were things I liked about it quieter and things I liked about it louder. I'm thinking I was getting a better ratio of the tones I really wanted compared to the stuff I didn't when I had it up where I could start to see the speakers really move.

Good luck in your own search.

[Pasta4lnch]

the headphones walking around thing is really the way to go. I eitherr go right on the grill or maybe a foot back. did a session once where the guy put it like 2 feet away perpendicular to the amp. had a totally different sound - VERY deep.

[popmann]

Use Fig8.

[DreamSound]

good tips, made me realize a lot of things I was missing:

1. I was far away back with the condenser, instead of trying it right in front of the amp to get that presence from the condenser and the 'meat' from the dynamic

2. Even tough I have a good sized room, I was getting more and more reverb as the volume got louder. I'm going to try placing the miced cab in one corner facing diagonally to the other corner. At the other corner put a big blanket to absorb some of that sound that is getting bounced back.

3. Volume: I realize it is OK to record at low volumes instead of following the rule of: 'record a guitar amp as loud as you can'

4. Try the 8 instead of U. Also try the -10 db since I'm going to be right in front of the amp now and the proximity effect... This way I can also have it loud enough for the dynamic mic... in theory at least

I'll let you know my findings tomorrow, any other comments will be greatly appreciated

[nbarts]

I mic Herbert on regular basis here. SM7B is a perfect match with a condenser a few FT back.

1st rule - get a good sounding guitar, good LP is a good place to start.
2nd rule - dial the amp tone (good tone IN FRONT OF the cab/speaker)
You have v30s in your cab, don't you?
After this with Herbert mic placement is a joy!
3rd rule - check 1st & 2nd rule again!

What are your amp settings?

Congrats on the Herbert!

[DreamSound]

I'm going to look into the SM7B, I've heard good things for a variety of applications.

1st rule - Got a custom Ibanez in mahogany and active EMG's, I think I'm good there. I'll be getting another Ibanez for Drop C songs with Duncans and bass in two weeks. If you have any sugestions 'guitar for Herbert combo' let me know.

2nd rule - I'm failing here as after setting it up a very good tone in front of the cab, I didn't like the tone through the console. I'm going to try this again, good point.

I have a 4x12 Mesa cab (closed), to be honest with you I never got into cabs and I don't know what are the v30s. What cab do you recommend for recording this amp? I might be selling this one since I only use it for recording now. I played the Herbert through a Diezel Cab and sounded great I've read 2x12 are better if you are not playing shows. .

Since I've only owned this amp for a couple of weeks, I don't have any set settings and still experimenting with:

Channel 3 -

gain: 10:00
volume: 8:00
treble: 4:00
middle: 12:00
bass: None

Mid Cut -

Intensity: 11:00
Level: 3:00

Master -

Presence - 3:00
Deep - 1:00
Volume 1: Going from 7:00 to 8:00

Can you advice in any setting to be more like the song Breath of Life by Vysion? (on the Diezel website) I'm dying to get that tone brother.

[nbarts]

First of all take it easy, it takes time to learn & I see you are new to this.

Regarding the guitar I said once & I will say it again - get an LP, Gibson or one of good Japanese copies. Get a set of fresh strings, I'd say 11s. One set of strings usually lasts for one session. Dean Markley Blue Steel has that vibe in it.

I personally like 2x12s with Herbert more, but for the tone you are referring to 4x12 Mesa Standard would be a great match.

Try channel 2 in + mode for that tone. Get your power amp around 9:00. Wait a minute...which pickups are you using? Switch your guitar to the neck position.
Set you midcuts to noon. as well as tr/mid/bass/deep/pres.

Now start messing with you gain & volume until you get the right amount of distortion & speaker push. When you get this it should be muddy, start opening up your presence. This should give you a start for getting there.

And remember - the tone is in your fingers!

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by nbarts

First of all take it easy, it takes time to learn & I see you are new to this.

Regarding the guitar I said once & I will say it again - get an LP, Gibson or one of good Japanese copies. Get a set of fresh strings, I'd say 11s. One set of strings usually lasts for one session. Dean Markley Blue Steel has that vibe in it.

11's on Strats and such is the only way to go. 11's on Pauls and SG's always sound chocked to me.

Also I don't like "new" strings for recording. There is that middle ground where the stings are just old enough but not too if you know what I mean.

And remember - the tone is in your fingers!

That to me is the most over used, over hyped line on GS.

So if I find the greatest guitar player in my town I could record him with my cell phone and it will sound better than my rack gear?

Of course not.

If you gave Stevie Ray Vaughn Kirk Hammet's guitar rig he could record the same sounding tracks as he did on Texas Flood?

Again, of course not.

Tone comes from many places, the part you play and how you play it is only a piece of a much larger puzzle. I wish people would stop with that stuff.

Oh and to the original poster, I am not a huge fan of condensers on guitar amps myself. I do like them as room mics on guitars. If I have something that I want some intentional air around a condenser is an option but for in your face sounds I lean towards dynamics, usually ribbons like the R121.

[nbarts]

ribbons like the R121.

That to me is the most over used, over hyped line on GS.

And fingers are one of the most important parts of the tone, because you can't buy them.

I have LP with EMGs with 11 daddarios(new set) I just plugged in my Herbert with 2x12. Settings just like I said, gain about 11:00, volume about 2:00, sounded like a bit thinner version of the tone he wants, 4x12 with those settings should be very close, I was too lazy to switch to my 4x12. Gibson standard neck passive pickup was a lot warmer & nicer, but EMGs can get you there.

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by nbarts

That to me is the most over used, over hyped line on GS.

Fair enough... but they are used by a lot of folks because they work for many of us.

And fingers are one of the most important parts of the tone, because you can't buy them.

Yes ONE of the most important parts I agree with that. Just not MORE important than other parts.

Many in the "tone is all in the fingers" camp would have you believe that anything is possible and gear just does not matter. Hogwash.

Honest question here...

Like his style or not it would be hard to say that Django Reinhardt wasn't an amazing guitarist who honed his craft to the highest degree. Do you honestly want to tell me that, even with all that skill in his fingers, he could take his late 40's equipment and his skill and make a recording that sounded like Tool's 10,000 days?

Honestly?

I know what you are saying when you say tone is in the fingers I just think that gets way too much credence around here. It was a phrase that someone said once to point out that the player and the part matter as much as the gear but it has gone way over the deep end.

What makes Django sound like Django is the same thing that makes Tool sound like Tool, the combination of players, parts, equipment, room and experience.

I have LP with EMGs with 11 daddarios(new set) I just plugged in my Herbert with 2x12. Settings just like I said, gain about 11:00, volume about 2:00, sounded like a bit thinner version of the tone he wants, 4x12 with those settings should be very close, I was too lazy to switch to my 4x12. Gibson standard neck passive pickup was a lot warmer & nicer, but EMGs can get you there.

Cool...



I still don't like 11's on humbuckers at all but that is just me. Something about 11's just feels mushy on most Pauls and SG type guitars. Flabby bottom to me. Again, to each his own. It might be your guitar and amp combo that works for you? 11's on my '72 Gold Top take a great sounding guitar and turns it into a painful expereince.

lol



Rock on!

[nbarts]

The guy has one of the best amps ever made with one of the best cabs ever made(I'm sure many will argue, but hey even Tool you are referring to used the same cab for his records if I remember right). 2 things that can stay on his way is the guitar & fingers, I think I've mentioned both. For a reason I've mentioned LPs twice

I still don't like 11's on humbuckers at all but that is just me. Something about 11's just feels mushy on most Pauls and SG type guitars. Flabby bottom to me. Again, to each his own. It might be your guitar and amp combo that works for you? 11's on my '72 Gold Top take a great sounding guitar and turns it into a painful expereince.

Get a Diezel! :)))) kidding...

[synchu]

Why don't you just send an e-mail to Peter? I am sure, if it is possible, he will get you in contact with "Vysion" so you can ask them directly on what was used, if that's at all usefull.

Guitars on most song examples there are at least double tracked/per side. Sounds much like just SM57 was used, but I won't bet on this those days.
Then just bring the faders up on the guitars and that's it.

[midnightsun]

It seems that the ideal situation is to have a tracking room isolated from the control room and monitor mic setup while the assistant makes changes.

Since I am not blessed the above environment I have found the following approach to work well for experimenting with electric guitar speaker micing: Shure in ear monitors with foam sleeves and then I put a Peltor shooting ear cups over my ears. Of course, one has to be mindful of the proximity of the in ear monitors. For the most part I hear what is coming through my my board, not direct room sound to my ear.

What I have discovered is that every mic, every guitar, every, amp, every speaker, every room, every player, and every possible possible mic placement makes a difference in the tone. Then I record and listen on my studio monitor speakers. I then tweak the signal that feeds my in ear monitors until it sounds to me as close as possible to what I hear on my monitor speakers.

I will pick a condensor, ribbon, or dynamic mic depending on my own experimentation. For me being methodical and learning to predict what set of variables will give me a given sound is key. Now that I have sorted the variables out I usually don't use the in ear monitors because I know right where to put what mic to get close to what I want. IMHO any given mic isn't better than another-- just depends on what I am after.

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by nbarts

The guy has one of the best amps ever made with one of the best cabs ever made(I'm sure many will argue, but hey even Tool you are referring to used the same cab for his records if I remember right). 2 things that can stay on his way is the guitar & fingers, I think I've mentioned both. For a reason I've mentioned LPs twice

And the room he is recording in, small, big, well treated, lots of low end nodes? Where is the amp in the room, next to the wall, in a corner, in the middle of the room? Is the amp up off the floor, on it's back, on top of another amp, tilted back on legs or on it's own feet resting on the floor? Mic placement, back away, close to the speaker, center of the cone, from the side of the speaker, pointed at the speaker handle (yes this does work with some mics on some cabs for some styles)? What mic preamp, API, Chandler, Neve something or other? Levels on the preamp into and out of the unit? Cables to hook the recording gear up, what do they sound like? And the levels to "tape?" What recording medium? If tape what type of tape? What tape is the ART set to use? What bias settings? Old or new tape? Will you be dumping the tape to digital or will you keep doing overdubs to the source? How is the tape stored? Is the machine ligned up correctly? Will mixing be done in another studio on another ATR? If digital what is it calabrated to? What sample rate and bit depth? Can the gear in front of the converter put out voltage to get to "digital 0" and do you want to push it that hard? Using compression pre, post or not at all? If using post compression are you doing it off of a buss or on individual tracks? And the monitoring, can you hear the subs, are you getting hyped highs how accurate are the speakers? How well does the tracking engineer know the speakers and the room? Multi tracking / layering or just one guitar? What type of pick? What guitar cable type and condition? What is the wood of the guitar body and neck? One mic or multiple? What microphones, dynamic, condenser? What EQ settings on the amp? What EQ settings on the recording gear if any? What wattage speakers? How loud is the amp in the room? Player tracking in the control room or with the amp? Is the amp in the control room? Is the speaker cab in the controlroom? What pots are in the guitar? What does the bass guitar sound like in the mix? What are the drums doing? What is the concept of the guitar in relation to the mix / style of music? What is the humidity in the tracking room? How much RF are you getting from the enviroment into the guitar? Using any pedals before the amp? What pedals? How are they set? Are the pedals running from a wall wart or batteries? What type of batteries? What order are the pedals in? What pickup on the guitar are you using? What are the knobs set to on the guitar? Reamping the tracks or playing them live? If reamping what is the "tracking" sound in the cans or monitors? The same amp with different settings for layering, same amp with the same settings for layering, different amp all together for layering?

I am not trying to bust your balls man, it's all good.




I am just pointing out that there is MUCH more to recording good guitar tones than an amp in a room and a good player. All of the things above (and more) effect the recording to one degree or another. "It's all in the fingers" is really overlooking the details and the details are what separates "good" guitar tones form "GREAT" guitar tones in the studio.

But YMMV for sure.

[DeathMonkey]

I've found that when recording the Herbert, keeping the mid cut OFF yields better results. Those thick, rich mids are where the magic happens. Or, record one track with the mid cut on, then one with it off. The Herbert seems to benefit far more from small surgical post-EQing than a ton of radical shifting at the amp. You're getting a lot more tonal information than you think you are with that amp. The mids can disguise how bright or how deep the tone actually is.

For heavy Diezel tones, I use a Bogner Uberkab and mic one V30 and one G12T-75 - a 57 on the V30, an LDC on the G12T, back about a foot and a half. I use channel two, I start with everything around 2 o'clock, and adjust from there. Diezels are smooth, so I go straight on about an inch or two to the side of the cone with the 57, with the LDC offset from the cone a hair to avoid beaminess.

A side note, I hate EMGs. Not a big fan of Duncans any more, either. Try DiMarzios with the Herbert.

[nbarts]

I am just pointing out that there is MUCH more to recording good guitar tones than an amp in a room and a good player. All of the things above (and more) effect the recording to one degree or another. "It's all in the fingers" is really overlooking the details and the details are what separates "good" guitar tones form "GREAT" guitar tones in the studio.

But YMMV for sure.

Trust me, he hasn't got to the point of worrying about all those things you've mentioned yet.
Take it easy, this is not a competition.
I'm sure you can track guitars better than I

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by nbarts

Trust me, he hasn't got to the point of worrying about all those things you've mentioned yet.
Take it easy, this is not a competition.
I'm sure you can track guitars better than I

Don't be too sure about that.... lol Guitars are my weak point in recording. I think it might come from being a guitar player for so many years.

And no competition at all, I am just pointing out the problem I have with the "it's all in the fingers" argument, it is assuredly not ALL in the fingers.

[peeder]

I think that sounds like a 57 close-in through a nice tranny preamp and a Distressor. Maybe some detuning or other mod.

I'm not impressed with this fantasy hero thing though. Is the singer riding a pegasus and has long curly hair and big pects? Isn't that over yet?

[andychamp]

This may not be the answer you're looking for, but there's a lot of tones available by combining 1 dynamic up close and 1 condenser further away.
In a smallish, dryer room (iso booth), with the condenser about 3 meters/10 ft. away, you get that old-school-metal, phasey, hollow sound, like early Motörhead stuff. You can control the "phasyness" when you play with the room mic distance. Still amazing how that sound can find its place in a mix. Sounds ugly when solo'ed, though.
In a bigger, more lively room, aqbout 5 or more meters away, the condenser can give you that deep AC/DC Back In Black sound.
No need for doubling in either case.

[DreamSound]

Well, you guys have made this thread woth reading. I like the guy who posted a lot of the variables that come into play with tracking guitars.

I also liked some of the recommended settings and mixing with the mid cut and without it. I definitely need to try that.

I'm going to post pictures of the room/mics, guitar, and amp settings plus the mp3 so you can get a reference of what I have so far. Then I will change it according to the recomendations given in this thread.

I already asked Peter and the band Vysion about that tone... no response.