Drum Mixing

[PhilE]

Mixing is mixing.

Its about the song not the instrument.

Even a drum solo is about whats played.

Mixing anything by formula or source is asking for a poor and uninteresting mix.

[simonv]

I know, but everybody has "go to" tricks that they often use. That's the type of stuff I'm looking for.

[bigbone]

Start with the OH's make sure they are a good image of the drums,a great sounding drums could be just the OH'S if worst came to worst, then add what's missing, but always liste in the context of the song, if you listen to the drums in solo, they might be fine, and with the tracks, they might be bad, or vice vera so the first rules is.......there is no rules, listen but listen in context, not in solo......and check for the phases, listen to the OH'S with the snare in solo, ( the most part of listning the drums in solo is for the phases)......there is no ''go trick'' the only trick is your ears........

[PhilE]

Originally Posted by simonv

I know, but everybody has "go to" tricks that they often use. That's the type of stuff I'm looking for.

But even those tricks are for styles and effects not instruments. I'm not trying to be difficult but if someone says- duck the hats from the snare and kick... great trick... but it is only as likely to be appropriate to you here as not. 12ms delay on the snare... you have to know when and how to apply it.
The theory of any trick works on almost any instrument- but only when its right.

[simonv]

Originally Posted by PhilE

But even those tricks are for styles and effects not instruments. I'm not trying to be difficult but if someone says- duck the hats from the snare and kick... great trick... but it is only as likely to be appropriate to you here as not. 12ms delay on the snare... you have to know when and how to apply it.
The theory of any trick works on almost any instrument- but only when its right.

Exactly, and since I'm stuck creatively about these drum tracks, I want people to list tricks, exactly like you did with that 12ms trick.. That way, I can go home tonight and try new techniques that I wouldn't have though of alone.

I know perfectly well that -it depends on the song.. -it's all on a case-basis.. and all that other "discuss the existence of a thread" talk.

[duckoff]

Like big bone said i'd get the OHs sounding great then reinforce / focus them with spot mics

I would also spend time looking @ the phase ( & timing ) of each mic in relation to you OHs

[Mike Caffrey]

My go to trick is to track them the way I want them to sound.



If you want ideas. Try using any 6 mics you've recoded and nothing else.

Try using no close mics or no room mics.

Try limiting the toms for a fak eroom sound and getting rid of the room mics.



I could get a great drum sound by using any of these ideas, but the main reason to do this is part way through an idea, it's going to stimulate a new one that's better and more appropriate for you songs.

Just start.

[andychamp]

You've got so many possible combinations with your tracks.
Use only distant stuff.
Or only closemic'd stuff.
Alternate between those for different song parts.
On a tom break use only the tom mics.
Or only the OH's
Put all distant mics in mono & pan the direct mics in weird corners.
Or vice-versa.
Mess with the listeners' minds.
Or deliver the clichés they're used to.
When an idea pops into your head and your 1st thought is "naah! that'd never work", go for it just for giggles.
Then, and only then, get the compressors and distortion boxes out.
"Have a good time. All the time!" (Viv Savage)

[Jade]

This is a topic that it is written sooo much about. If you search the web for "mixing drums", you have reading for days.

Just make sure you have good and correct monitoring. Listen to cd`s you like and compare.

Mix it so you like it. If you dont like it, post a clip. And everyone here will try to help you figuring out what you have to do!

Peace

[Zack]

Not really tricks but just stuff I've found and liked as I've been going along.

Chuck some slapback delay on the drum buss or maybe just the overheads. Makes for a cool tennis-court sort of sound.

And one I just came across the other day after revisiting a song I recorded ages ago with my last band - I threw up an NT-1 in front of the kick, probably a foot to 2 feet away from the kick drum and then slam the F$%# out of it with compression, add reverb and delay to taste and overdrive it a bit too, basically until it sounds wrecked and horrible, then blend that in with the rest until it gives it that raw, hard, umph that you desire. Works great for me since I'm tracking in a dead room only just big enough to fit the kit and some mics around it.

[Zack]

Originally Posted by PhilE

if someone says- duck the hats from the snare and kick... great trick... but it is only as likely to be appropriate to you here as not.

Noob question... What's ducking? I've heard it used a few times now so I figure it'd make sense to find out what people are on about.

[ryanojohn]

Ducking is a feature found on many gates or expanders. It essentially reduces the level of your tracks signal when the alternate inputs signal is above a set level. It is essentially used to make a signal stand out but duck when another signal should stand out

[stevep]

Push the faders up..... it should sound like the kit

i almost never just record tracks that i think i "might" use...

i would start with in Kick, top snare, toms, overs maybe a bit of bot snare and hat

if i like the room i will use a close mono room mic if the song wants it


it should sound right with no eq or compression


there are really no tricks.... no silver bullets,

But...... well there is my custom Black Box i keep hidden by the console

[jwl]

Not to be pedantic, but mix the SONG, not the drums.

What does the song need? Some songs just need one room mic up for the drums. Others need all those channels up, with envelopes on each one, to get everything breathing and sounding crisp and detailed.

Just put all the faders up and listen to the song. Where is the space?

The drums should drive the rhythm (obviously) and occupy a distinct space in the song.

I will point out that in general I start with room mics and/or overheads, and I generally use as few mics/tracks as possible to get the sounds I need. But of course every situation is different.....

[Mad-Max]

Why dont U post the drum tracks so that anyone interested could MAKE and post back a Mix of them, to give a more concrete idea?

[valver]

Imagine putting a mic on each individual string of an acoustic guitar and then trying to mix those 6 mics so that it sounds like that acoustic guitar …
close but no toast !

The "trick" is a drummer who knows how to play,
who plays for the song, not for other drummers,
and knows how to tune a drum kit, the rest is "shinola" ...
(all apoligies for the semi- rant)

95% of the time,
I LOVE a pair of overheads, 1- kick, 1- snare, 1- room

[YZ!]

Originally Posted by simonv

I know, but everybody has "go to" tricks that they often use. That's the type of stuff I'm looking for.

Looking for a trick?

Ok, first tell us if _without using other people's tricks_ you are getting a good drum sound in your mix.

Are you? if not, no trick will be useful.

From your first post you say that you are having difficulties in getting a balanced sound, so I'd suggest you use the technique (not a trick) mentioned by bigbone.

Start with the OH mics (are they just 3 mics or a stereo pair plus a mono mic?), they should give you a balanced picture of the drums; then if you feel you need more bass drum, add one of the BD mics; too boomy? turn it off and get the mic on the beater side; too clicky? solo both BD mics and see if you can achieve a decent balance between them, see if they are not fighting each other.

Then listen to the OHs plus those mics; is everything OK? need more snare? repeat the process used with the bd on the snare.

You may find out that all you need is two OHs, the out-kick mic and the top snare mic.

Or not, it all depends on the drummer and the song, if the tracks were properly recorded.

After that, with a good balance of the drums, comes the trick time.

IF any trick is needed.

[CrankyRayHanky]

2 kick tracks (RE20 mics, one near the beater, one out of the kick)
2 snare tracks (top and bottom)
1 hh track
1 ride track
2 tom tracks (tom + floor)
3 overhead tracks in 3 mic position (decca?)
2 room tracks

For what its worth, here's how my approach to mxing up drums...I'm assuming that the tracks are recorded at even levels and the drummer played without extreme explosives

For my DAW, 0= center hard pan L & R= 63
Even up the 2 kick volumes, pan L1 (1 being a tiny increment off center)
Bring the top snare volume up and pan R1
Bring in the overhead tracks. I usually just go stereo xy overheads and mix them at L40 R40.

With your 3rd overhead mic, I assume it could go dead center (though I don't know decca)....find a mix with these limited tracks to make the kit sound balanced and powerful.

Kick and snare is your cornerstone; cymbals rarely have a hard time cutting through. I would only bring in those ride and hat mics minimally, if at all. It depends if your drummer is doing real quiet intricate hits on those pieces. Slammin' hard rock usually does not require more than the overheads for my cymbals and hats (good placement is a must)

If you need those tom mics bring them in and pan them just inside the overhead L 35 --R35

Rather than use reverbs, I'll bring those room mics in a lower level for ambience and pan them the hardest, maybe L47 R47. Ditto for the bottom snare mic panned right on top of the other at R1

Keep in mind I like to mix as if I am the drummer. Most US mixes are the opposite, from the persepective of the crowd.

Make sure you make a few mixes with less mics (eliminate bottom snare, hat, ride, and tom mics) to see if less=more

Good luck!

[dbbubba]

Like everyone says... you are well covered because you mic'ed the kit with plenty of mics.

The less is better school of thought reigns supreme in drum sounds, so start there.

What are the specific issues that you are having trouble with?
Describe what you are having trouble with and maybe that'll give people a few ideas about what you need to do/think about.

[simonv]

Thanks for your tips up to now.
As promised, here are clips of the tracks.

One is just the drums, the other is with all the tracks (except vocals with aren't cut yet).
PS- the other tracks are not mixed properly either yet


I'd love to hear what your first mixing reflex would be.
Snare bottom, Ride and OH Center are not being used, and I've sound replaced the kick.

Thanks

[amishsixstringe]

That high hat pedal is kinda noisy. Other than that, it's not too bad. The tracks mixed seem to be a little bit not glued together. Try to think of mixing as blending more than separating. Other than that, it's not a bad track.


Neil

[Pete J]

Hey, was the kick replaced using the actual sounds?

Nice sounds you've got to work with there. I would start by checking the phase of everything to make sure nothing's getting lost, first the kick mics, then the snares, then compare the kick blend to the OHs, then the snares, then the OHs and the room mics, stuff like that... just making sure everything sounds as full as it can when combined. Then as far as the blend, on first listen your throw-up-the-faders mix already sounds like it's in the ballpark for the style. I'd probably try to use the room mics a lot rather than just as ambience, and beef things up with the close mics as needed. I'd definitely want to plump up that kick a bit, even for the style, but maybe that's just me. I think all your tones sound good, it's just a matter of deciding what the baseline sound should be-- OH, rooms, or close mics, and supplement with the rest. The performance is pretty dynamic so I wouldn't be afraid to squish it a bit. You could slam the room mics with a compressor and use that as glue, or limit the close mics so they're more controlled and consistent and let the room mics do most of the work and convey the dynamics. Many things you can do here, I would just try not to overdo anything.

I hope those are some helpful observations. Perhaps you can tell us what you want it to sound like and people can offer more specific tips?

[ORGANIK]

i guess it all depends on what type of sound overall you want...
but i think the drums have a good natural tone overall. and when everything is mixed it can work fine without many tricks at all.
its brushes so they sould be a lil more blended into the song with some comp. to tame the dynamics a bit. id lower the toms down a bit, and bring up a lil bottom in the kick and blend it all together.
i think it would be good.

[exit2studios]

Sounds good. I might suggest beefing up the kick a little more as previously suggested. Maybe bring a little more of the close mic in on kick.

Also, consider putting some compression on the snare mic so that it gets a little more attack and snap and then mix that in to taste. I like the sound you've got going, but I'm used to a little more close kick and snare mixed it.

It's all what you're going after. I think what you have is great, just not necessarily the sounds I hear in my head, which is going to be different for every set of ears.

[MarkRB]

A trick I use is 'don't stress over it, squash the kick and snare a fair bit, turn it up loud and enjoy it'.

may not work for everyone....

A good compressor on the drum buss helps.

[dbbubba]

I hear a lot of room and the vibe is Reggae-ish (yeah, go on and give it a more technically correct name if you must)
But... that sound historically had a more dry sound and I hear too much room.

The snare mic seems awfull loud, too.

I kinda' like the looseness with everything in.
It gives it a novelty song sound, so I hope it is a whimsical cut.

If it is going to be straight out pop, the feel is loose.

When I played just the drums I felt funny about the groove and when I heard the instruments with the drums it seem un-glued.
I also don't like that GTR sound.
The part is OK, but it has a rather strained sound wouldn't you say?

Did this band play together?

It is groove music stylistically, but the band ain't really grooving together.

I'm not talking about the drum sound very much am I?

It sounds like what you need is there, but needs mixing.
Hard to explain how to do it without doing it for you.
It isn't really something that can be written out or verbalized.

[Beardhead]

Originally Posted by simonv

Thanks for your tips up to now.
As promised, here are clips of the tracks.

One is just the drums, the other is with all the tracks (except vocals with aren't cut yet).
PS- the other tracks are not mixed properly either yet


I'd love to hear what your first mixing reflex would be.
Snare bottom, Ride and OH Center are not being used, and I've sound replaced the kick.

Thanks

I like the snare but the bassdrum doesn't suit the rest, too much room.
Claus

[mjlaudio]

personally my favorite trick when i have alot of options and no idea what to do is to tell the band they suck, their tracks suck and their song sucks and usually I dont have to worry about what options to use anymore.thumbsup


Just joking......ok now I will be serious

oblique strategies.....draw a card and act on what ever it says.

[simonv]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

I kinda' like the looseness with everything in.
It gives it a novelty song sound, so I hope it is a whimsical cut.

If it is going to be straight out pop, the feel is loose.

It's actually a humoristic song about a guy having no more better to do than write caribbean songs to his girl that left.
"Reggae-ish" is exactly how I would describe it. About what you said about reggae drums being very dry.. I know! I'm a long time fan of Bob Marley, I know all the albums by heart, but I didn't want to create an emulation of "that reggae sound", I wanted to take it somewhere else.. For a few years, I was in a ska band and I got honestly sick of trying to pretend we were Jamaicans from the 70s, as we were all white and canadian I'm inspired by old ska/reggae a lot, but I don't want to copy, that's why it's so airy instead of dry.

Originally Posted by dbbubba

I also don't like that GTR sound.

Which one exactly? The overdriven guitar part on the left or the very-reverbed clean one on the right?

Originally Posted by dbbubba

Did this band play together?
It is groove music stylistically, but the band ain't really grooving together.

I know I hired a drummer to play over an acoustic guitar track with click. From there, I recorded all of the instruments over the drum tracks. I know it's very loose! I'm not a good bassist and a much less good pianist The electric guitars were tracked in an afternoon as sshittracks but I finally kept a couple.

This album is really an all-alone trip. For my next, I'll probably hire a full rhythmic section to practice and record a solid ground on which to build.

Also, I realized that I muted all of the rhythm guitars on the full track I sent you guys. There's a light up-beat "reggae chaka" electric guitar track and an upbeat acoustic guitar track that are missing. They glue the rhythm better together when they're present.

Thanks for all the input, it's really appreciated everyone.