Balanced/Unbalanced Vocal Chain Question Question

ghetto3jon · 16th December 2007, 08:07 PM

my vocal chain this weekend will be SCA N72 -> FMR RNC -> TC M-One XL -> MOTU 828mkII. but this means the signal will be balanced, then unbalanced, then balanced again. so my question is, will this result in any signal degradation?:

N72 -> xlrf to ts -> RNC -> ts to xlrm -> M-One -> xlrf to trs -> MOTU

and should the inputs on the MOTU be set up for +4 or -10? is the final signal reaching the MOTU considered balanced or unbalanced? all of the cable lengths are very short, so does it even matter?

psycho_monkey · 16th December 2007, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghetto3jon

my vocal chain this weekend will be SCA N72 -> FMR RNC -> TC M-One XL -> MOTU 828mkII. but this means the signal will be balanced, then unbalanced, then balanced again. so my question is, will this result in any signal degradation?:

N72 -> xlrf to ts -> RNC -> ts to xlrm -> M-One -> xlrf to trs -> MOTU

and should the inputs on the MOTU be set up for +4 or -10? is the final signal reaching the MOTU considered balanced or unbalanced? all of the cable lengths are very short, so does it even matter?

Why are you going through the M-One? that's an A/D to D/A conversion that's probably not necessary.

Assuming you're ditching the M-One, then your output from the RNC is unbalanced. Professional gear operates at a nominal level of +4dBu, so use that. Bear in mind though, that it's just a gain issue. If the level out of the RNC is too quiet, just switch to the -10 setting.

Balanced vs unbalanced is not necessarily a drop in quality, just a drop in shielding quality.You're going to be fine with short cables. When interfacing unbalanced gear with balanced, level drops can occur, but it's more an issue with inserting gear, whereas you've got a one-way chain (as opposed to a send and return loop).

Simple advice - keep the preamp gain reasonable (ie not in the extremes of it's range) and adjust the rest of the chain to fit!

ghetto3jon · 16th December 2007, 08:30 PM

i'm going to the M-One for reverb. it sounds quite a bit better than the stock reverb plugin in DP. and i like going live and committing reverb to "tape" when it's something simple, like a little hall or plate on a vocal.

psycho_monkey · 16th December 2007, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghetto3jon

i'm going to the M-One for reverb. it sounds quite a bit better than the stock reverb plugin in DP.

Well don't track with it on. Use it when you're mixing - you can send it out and back in again using spare i/o on your interface.

Seriously - it's easy to add reverb, but impossible to remove. And very difficult to judge how much is too much at the tracking stage.

ghetto3jon · 16th December 2007, 08:33 PM

you may be right. thanks for the advice.

psycho_monkey · 16th December 2007, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghetto3jon

you may be right. thanks for the advice.

No probs...and honestly, unless you REALLY know what you're doing, ditch the reverb.

If your TC has the option, you might be able to set it up so you can record the dry signal from one output, and the reverb from the other (in mono, but that's not a bad thing). Then you can balance or ditch it later on.

ghetto3jon · 16th December 2007, 08:43 PM

you know, i never thought of the M-One as a AD/DA step in the chain. but it is digital processing...so you're saying the AD/DA conversion within the M-One is a step of degradation? hmm...i never thought of that.

psycho_monkey · 16th December 2007, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghetto3jon

you know, i never thought of the M-One as a AD/DA step in the chain. but it is digital processing...so you're saying the AD/DA conversion within the M-One is a step of degradation? hmm...i never thought of that.

well, yes. Anything digital, guitar pedals, camcorders etc have AD and DA converters.

Whether or not the conversion has any effect depends on the quality of the unit, and the person listening to it. But the way you're proposing to do things isn't really good practice, and you could end up with an unusable recording.

ghetto3jon · 16th December 2007, 08:50 PM

so it's a better idea to go Mic -> Pre -> Compressor -> MOTU and then send the track out and through the M-One and back in again and record to another track? i've certainly done that when i was on the fence about a reverb setting, but as you say, it's probably good to do it that way all the time to avoid that AD/DA step. thanks again for the advice.

Jamie Matrix · 16th December 2007, 09:26 PM

Regardless of whether you are going to track through the M-One or use it on a send, you might as well at least hook it up to your MOTU via the digital connections to save going through unnecessary D/A conversion. I believe they both have SPDIF -could be wrong though?

ghetto3jon · 16th December 2007, 09:44 PM

you know, you're right. they do both have SPDIF. great suggestion. the fact that that never occurred to me makes me feel pretty stupid...

drBill · 16th December 2007, 10:25 PM

To topic - no issues going balanced to unbalanced to balanced if your cables are kept short AND if they are wired (and terminated) correctly. That's the trick. Wiring unbalance gear into a balanced setup sometimes takes a little trickery to alleviate grounding issues.

As for reverb, I'll cut with anything - EXCEPT reverb. I'd suggest as others have, that unless it's for unusual effect, you add during the mix. Good luck.

bp

Jamie Matrix · 16th December 2007, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drBill

As for reverb, I'll cut with anything - EXCEPT reverb. I'd suggest as others have, that unless it's for unusual effect, you add during the mix. Good luck.

bp

I'd absolutely agree with that.

te-problematique · 16th December 2007, 10:46 PM

The other guys are absolutely right about the verb, however if track count is an issue like it was for me on a session the other week where I could only have 4 inputs to record the entire band live then adding reverb to the drum submix is acceptable (long story, doing stuff on the cheap etc.). If the only way to get the sound you want due to limitations is to add it during tracking (even if it might not be perfect later) then you have to make a call, however if you can multi-track properly, there's no need to destroy stuff too early, you've got heaps of times to screw things up later!!

dbbubba · 17th December 2007, 01:40 AM

For one thing it sounds like you are recording this chain to one track. Mono.
Reverb is pretty much used to create a feeling of space and a mono track with reverb (panned up the middle) doesn't really give the impression of much space.
You want the reverb added at mix and in stereo.

ghetto3jon · 17th December 2007, 02:46 AM

alright guys. thanks for your advice. i'll follow it, and track dry. then when it's time to send it out to verb, i'd like to use the SPDIF...which i've never used before, but i'm sure i'll figure it out. thanks again.

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16th December 2007, 08:07 PM	#1
ghetto3jon Gear maniac Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Pawtucket, RI Posts: 290	Balanced/Unbalanced Vocal Chain Question Question my vocal chain this weekend will be SCA N72 -> FMR RNC -> TC M-One XL -> MOTU 828mkII. but this means the signal will be balanced, then unbalanced, then balanced again. so my question is, will this result in any signal degradation?: N72 -> xlrf to ts -> RNC -> ts to xlrm -> M-One -> xlrf to trs -> MOTU and should the inputs on the MOTU be set up for +4 or -10? is the final signal reaching the MOTU considered balanced or unbalanced? all of the cable lengths are very short, so does it even matter?

17th December 2007, 01:40 AM	#15
dbbubba Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 3,326	For one thing it sounds like you are recording this chain to one track. Mono. Reverb is pretty much used to create a feeling of space and a mono track with reverb (panned up the middle) doesn't really give the impression of much space. You want the reverb added at mix and in stereo. __________________ Danny Brown

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16th December 2007, 08:30 PM	#3
ghetto3jon Gear maniac Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Pawtucket, RI Posts: 290	i'm going to the M-One for reverb. it sounds quite a bit better than the stock reverb plugin in DP. and i like going live and committing reverb to "tape" when it's something simple, like a little hall or plate on a vocal.

16th December 2007, 08:33 PM	#5
ghetto3jon Gear maniac Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Pawtucket, RI Posts: 290	you may be right. thanks for the advice.

16th December 2007, 08:43 PM	#7
ghetto3jon Gear maniac Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Pawtucket, RI Posts: 290	you know, i never thought of the M-One as a AD/DA step in the chain. but it is digital processing...so you're saying the AD/DA conversion within the M-One is a step of degradation? hmm...i never thought of that.

16th December 2007, 08:50 PM	#9
ghetto3jon Gear maniac Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Pawtucket, RI Posts: 290	so it's a better idea to go Mic -> Pre -> Compressor -> MOTU and then send the track out and through the M-One and back in again and record to another track? i've certainly done that when i was on the fence about a reverb setting, but as you say, it's probably good to do it that way all the time to avoid that AD/DA step. thanks again for the advice.

16th December 2007, 09:26 PM	#10
Jamie Matrix Gear Head Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 62	Regardless of whether you are going to track through the M-One or use it on a send, you might as well at least hook it up to your MOTU via the digital connections to save going through unnecessary D/A conversion. I believe they both have SPDIF -could be wrong though?

16th December 2007, 09:44 PM	#11
ghetto3jon Gear maniac Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Pawtucket, RI Posts: 290	you know, you're right. they do both have SPDIF. great suggestion. the fact that that never occurred to me makes me feel pretty stupid...

16th December 2007, 10:25 PM	#12
drBill Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: So Cal Posts: 3,476	To topic - no issues going balanced to unbalanced to balanced if your cables are kept short AND if they are wired (and terminated) correctly. That's the trick. Wiring unbalance gear into a balanced setup sometimes takes a little trickery to alleviate grounding issues. As for reverb, I'll cut with anything - EXCEPT reverb. I'd suggest as others have, that unless it's for unusual effect, you add during the mix. Good luck. bp

16th December 2007, 10:46 PM	#14
te-problematique Gear Head Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 68	The other guys are absolutely right about the verb, however if track count is an issue like it was for me on a session the other week where I could only have 4 inputs to record the entire band live then adding reverb to the drum submix is acceptable (long story, doing stuff on the cheap etc.). If the only way to get the sound you want due to limitations is to add it during tracking (even if it might not be perfect later) then you have to make a call, however if you can multi-track properly, there's no need to destroy stuff too early, you've got heaps of times to screw things up later!!

17th December 2007, 02:46 AM	#16
ghetto3jon Gear maniac Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Pawtucket, RI Posts: 290	alright guys. thanks for your advice. i'll follow it, and track dry. then when it's time to send it out to verb, i'd like to use the SPDIF...which i've never used before, but i'm sure i'll figure it out. thanks again.