guitar tone for rock band recording

[neilsby]

hi there,

recording some guitar at the moment for heavy rock band and we can't get a big enough tone with bass and full smoothness (see Killswitch Engage for example).

We have the following mics and pre amps to use:

Studio Projects C1
couple of Beta 57's
421
AKG SE 300 B with CK 91 cap
couple of C 3000's

Penta and MOTU 828 Mk II

we have a JCM 900 2x10 combo and a JMP- 1 valve midi pre amp. At the moment we're blending the two tones from both amps.

Which mics should we be pointing at the combo and in what positions?

We've tried loads of combinations but it's all too 'tinny'. Anyone got suggestions other than spending more money?

Thanks.

[imacgreg]

Ok, first, make sure that with multiple amps/mics you don't have any phase problems. Also, some of those metal guitar tones are actually pretty weak by themselves. Sometimes the best thing about their guitar tone is the bass guitar tone

Anyway, I usually start with a 57 and 421 right on the cone and work from there. I almost always have the gtr player back of his gain considerably, what sounds good in the room usually ends up really fuzzy/fizzy in the CR. YMMV on that tho, I know some heavy hitters (Slipperman) just go with whatever the guitar player has got!

Hope this helps.... If you have a phase problem, nothing will sound good till ya fix it.


Ian

[eberrong]

A lot of the big guitar tone typically comes from layering several tracks together. As a start, try recording the same part onto 2 separate tracks (in perfect unison of course). Then pan the parts somewhat L & R. Sounds "bigger" right? Some people layer 3, 4, 6, tracks together...whatever works.

Also typical high gain guitars are recorded from a 4x12 cabinet (usually closed back). I'm not saying that it can't be done other ways, I'm just saying that this is how a lot of people do it and get great sounding tracks.

Also mic placement is a big deal. Moves of 1/4" can have a big effect on tone. I point a SM57 directly at the cone (about 1" from the grill) and start to move it horizontally toward the speaker surround (edge of speaker). Somewhere in that sweep is a good balance of the bass and treble coming from the speaker. For me, it is usually closer to the cone...YMMV

Also as imacgreg pointed out. A lot of modern rock music is done with the guitar and bass working together as almost a single instrument. I find that huge sounding guitar tracks do not fit into a mix properly. I almost always high pass the gtr tracks at 100Hz or higher, which does not make for a huge sounding track (almost lo-fi sounding when soloed). But when you mix in the bass gtr and other instruments, it sounds great!

Last but not least, quality mic preamps are very important for recording distorted guitars! API, Phoenix, Great River, Chandler, any of these should do the trick. Anything less, good luck. IMHO, you will be fighting a losing battle.

Hope this helps!

PS - Also new tubes for the amp and new strings for the guitar can have a big effect on tone. They should be replaced before any serious recording sessions.

[neilsby]

We've managed to bring in a Peavey 5150 mk II and a good quality closed-back 2x12 cab. Hopefully mixing a clean sounding jcm 800 tone with a hi-gain 5150 tone should be better.

We understand the importance of good pre's but if you aint got them what can you do. We're just after the best tone we can squeeze out of the equipment, we're not soo nieve to think we can match a commercial tone.

Thanks for the advice,

Neil.

[eberrong]

We understand the importance of good pre's but if you aint got them what can you do. We're just after the best tone we can squeeze out of the equipment, we're not soo nieve to think we can match a commercial tone.

I have used lesser preamps for recording guitars and I can say you will need a good EQ plugin (like Waves) to even get in the ballpark of decent sound. And you will likely have to use extreme EQ settings which tends to sound bad (harsh), therefore like I said, a losing battle.

But follow the other tips you got here and do the best you can. It's all part of the learning process! Post something when your done.

[neilsby]

I've got the waves plug-ins so i'll use them, managed to score them cheap off a friend who gave up recording. Can you recommend which eq and any extreme settings?

Thanks,

Neil.

[eberrong]

I like the Waves RenEQ the best for guitars. I can't really recommend any specific settings because it will depend on your preamps, mic placement, etc, etc.... I can recommend that you use a high pass filter on the RenEQ set to 100-150Hz (experiment with frequency and slope). This will leave space for the bass gtr and other instruments.

Another thing I thought of that may help, do one of these 2 things...

- Put the amp in another room separate from the monitors. This way you can get a very clear picture of what tone is being recorded. And you can have a helper move the mic around while you listen to the monitors and get it perfect before recording anything.

- If you don't have a separate room to use. Get a pair of Extreme Isolation Headphones. They are only like $80 and I always use them when setting up a mic in front of an amp. They take out a lot of the room sound.

[djui5]

Originally posted by imacgreg
Also, some of those metal guitar tones are actually pretty weak by themselves. Sometimes the best thing about their guitar tone is the bass guitar tone

This is the key.....bass guitar, tom's and kick drum.....

Arrangement is your friend

[LTA]

Originally posted by djui5
This is the key.....bass guitar, tom's and kick drum.....

Arrangement is your friend

Word up!

One time, i was like in my car and stuff, listening to my favorite tunes on my stock radio (with little low end response). I was stopped by a flagman (i mean flagperson) at a construction zone, and was sitting maybe 6 feet away from 2 guys running jackhammers. It was very odd, but my stereo had more bass response than it ever had before or after that, and the jackhammers weren't even in time with the music.

Tire whine will do it too, to a point.

But, as an example to Randy's point: Check out AC/DC's highway to hell. Very thin guitar sound, huge kick and snare.

But, if you want tons of low end chunk, DO check out the d.o.d. death metal distortion peddle. Its the soup you can eat with a fork (or a toothpick although your teeth will have already fallen out from the vibrations).

[patrox247]

I'll second the 57 and 421 combo for a big metal sound. Try EQing the 421 track and leaving the 57 dry (for body). Be constantly aware of the phase relationship between the two tracks as EQing one and not the other causes even more phase issues but it should be rather minimal and your track should benefit. Tons of Metal and rock albulms have been recorded via the JMP1 pre so you should be able to dial in a descent rock tone. I have a personal dislike for all JCM series amps that followed the amazing JCM 800. In my opinion they completely lost balls and have gone way down hill.

[Scinx]

I have found tinny and poor placement go together like peas in a pod. Dismal preamps also dont help. I would suggest messing around a lot with placement as has been mentioned. Id also suggest taking one of your condensers and putting that several feet off the grill in conjunction with your dynamics up close.

I would also strongly re-suggest recording with less distortion than sounds good at the time. A healthy dose of distortion usually records pretty poorly - whereas just a hint of it comes out as if it were heavy.

Good luck

[neilsby]

We're recording guitars this afternoon so i'll post here how it goes. I'll definitely try messing with mic placement and winding down the gain.

[covert]

I'll add my voice to the 421/57 combination. You might also try getting any tone from the 900 using the lower gain channel. Unless it's been modified, the highgain channel introduces a very nasty rectifier bridge into the sound, which kills all dynamic response.

[neilsby]

We've settled on:

5150 on a low-gain distortion with a 57 beta touching grill and about 4cm from the edge of the cone. Going into a focusrite penta with no compression. I think there was some serious phase cancelling when we introduced another mic (421) so we left it out. Even when we inverted the phase the sound wasn't as good as the 57 on its own.

Mixed with:

JMP-1 pre through emulated output. Low-gain again and the bass low in the mix.

The guitars sound sparkly and full, but still heavy. The best advice was to wind down the gain. It does mean that the guitarist has to be more accurate with the playing though. Takes a little while longer.

I'll try and get a link to some mp3s of the finished thing if i'm feeling brave enough. haha.

Neil.

[DirkB]

My buddy and I have been recording dirt guitars for the last 2 weeks for the album we're recording and producing.
Getting tones, wow, where can one start?

Dig up the heavy guitar thread Slipperman wrote, that will give you an idea.

Basiccaly, there are dozens of variables and each variable influences any other . Make any sense yet ?

Make sure there is someone present who knows the shit about amps and speakers and guitars and which who can translate what sound on cd sounds like what in the recording room.

My experience is that particularly the gain of the amp and the volume of the speaker play a big part...

If you have your killer tone sounding in the room, start with one SM57 and something like a Chandler TG2 pre. It'll probaly take a few albums before you really start getting the tone you want

Good luck,
Dirk