What’s the deal with the mono drum room mic?

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by Drumsound

So the guy who comes into the project last after everything else has been done is the one who dictates how the record is done? That makes no sense at all. The mix engineer is not the Producer. the mix engineer is in charge of blending whatever tracks they receive. They can process them, effect them, make them louder or softer, place them in the stereo (or surround) field, make them brighter or darker and many many other things. They are however [i]not[//i] the Producer.

I don't believe there was failure to communicate. The Producer (and/or team that includes the Artist and Engineer) made a choice and communicated it by delivering a song or group of songs, with multitrack information that represents what was considered the best representation of said songs. It is now the mix engineer’s job to mix said tracks.

It sounds like everyone needs to join some unions and get this all sorted out. Or recruit some knights to protect the fiefdoms.

My little bubble world seems so less confusing. I "create" music. That lack of title seems to gives me the freedom to do as I please in order to satisy the artist's vision.

To address MarkRB's question. I like a coincident pair of mics when doing stereo room mics. My personal favorite is MS. Then I can control width and try to get the image to somewhat align with the overheads. However the farther you put the room mics away from the kit the more mono the image is anyway. At a certain distance you can't get the room mics to mirror the wide image of the overheads and you still have the blurriness problem to contend with. I wonder if it might be better to put the room mics closer to the kit, but just facing away from it. Anyone ever experiment with this?

I think if the room mic(s) (mono or stereo) are low enough in the mix then you don't have as much of an issue with the image alignment. It's only when you really try to have them as loud as the overheads that there tends to be a problem.

Brad

[poncival]

I hear ya brother, I hate this situation too.... Nothing like hearing all the nice stereo imaging in the overheads (with not much room at all) and then the only ambient mic you have is a "nuked" to death U47 with mainly cymbals in it...

The only thing that's funnier than that is when you get the usual 10 or 12 drum mics and then there are 8 random other mics in the room which got recorded "just for fun" and still no useable "room mics"

sigh

[Brad McGowan]

I totally used to do that! Haha. And then I realized that all the mics were crap and totally useless. So I started just using one well-placed (hopefully) mono room mic.

Brad

[poncival]

How about one well placed SM69 or something along those lines?

[MarkRB]

COINCIDENT PAIR!!!!
I knew there was a better term than 'single space' but just couldn't think of it...duh...


I LOVE those 'weird' random room mics on kits, they are what can make a good drum recording into an amazing drum mix, although I guess we are talking about a more artificial sound, and it helps if the guy recording it has half a clue. SM58 thru a BOSS overdrive?? Alllriggght.

[poncival]

I like the old "Shure 300 into Altec 1612" technique myself. It's just that it's getting so hard to rent a rack full of 1612's and a milk crate full of 300's just to get my room sound. Oh, and don't forget the extra AD16x or two

[colinmiller]

Originally Posted by poncival

The only thing that's funnier than that is when you get the usual 10 or 12 drum mics and then there are 8 random other mics in the room which got recorded "just for fun" and still no useable "room mics"

sigh

lol! I have gotten tracks with about 6 room mics of which none could I tell apart from the OHs.

On a side note, I remember once seeing Bob with a mix of Brian Adam's Heaven on the console when I was first getting started. I couldn't believe itwas only 4 tracks of drums, a single AMS reverb or delay (I don't remember because I had no idea at the time what those things were) and on the console maybe only 2 or 3 EQs were being used. And it was the finished mix.

[poncival]

OK sorry to hijack this thread like this but I can't resist... I can top that... I did a mix the other day on the SSL 6064:

CH 1-2 "Music"

Ch 3 "Vocal"

Ch 4 "Guns"











It still took 5 hours!

[MixShmix]

Originally Posted by colinmiller

I remember once seeing Bob with a mix of Brian Adam's Heaven on the console when I was first getting started. I couldn't believe itwas only 4 tracks of drums, a single AMS reverb or delay (I don't remember because I had no idea at the time what those things were) and on the console maybe only 2 or 3 EQs were being used. And it was the finished mix.

It was actually the 75-foot stairway chamber at Power Station in NY. Sort of an unfair advantage.

[joelpatterson]

Analog stairs, too, I bet.

[colinmiller]

Originally Posted by MixShmix

It was actually the 75-foot stairway chamber at Power Station in NY. Sort of an unfair advantage.

Well you had some AMS unit doing something, but being that at the time I didn't even know what AMS was, I couldn't say what it was for. And I don't remember if it was an RMX16 or a DMS1580.

I also remember that you were had the console set to VCA to meters, which was unbeknownst to me at the time as I hadn't even seen an SSL before. I asked you why you used so much compression that the signal on the meters didn't even move. That's when you taught me about VCA to meters in as polite a way as one possibly could respond to someone asking one of the stupidest questions anyone has probably ever heard.

Come to think of it I should post about that in the "stupidest things ever said in a recording session' thread. Maybe I can win an award.

I also remember Bill S telling me how they would sometimes eat lunch in the stairway while you were mixing and sing harmonies to screw with you. Don't know if that's true, but a funny story either way.

[nickynicknick]

OK...I kinda don't understand something here....if this is Bob C's thread, then ...with all of Bob's experience and knowledge...why ask such a question....I'm sure that Bob is fully aware of the reasons someone would choose a mono element over more choices avaiilable for mixing...and I'm sure he would know what to do with that mono element....and I'm also sure that he can appreciate the immediacy of a mono kit...is this just for shits or what?

[stevep]

Originally Posted by MixShmix

Wow, this is all very interesting!

So I have another question: does anyone notice that the “picture” of the kit can get somewhat confusing? If the cymbals are stereo and the room mic is up the middle, it often appears to me that there’s two images of the kit sort of superimposed on each other—

Im usually smashing the mono room pretty hard (MC77) to get the natural reverb of my room, so no ,.. i dont hear it messing with the picture or stereo image of the kit as a whole
( i mute the original track and just use the smashed track in the mix)

i dont really like it when i add the two far placed room mics when there not compressed, it just makes the drums sound to far away... go figure :))

i like the stereo image to come from the toms, hat and overs


Also thanks BC, Terry, Bob, and others, ... its great to see ya,all over here ..lol

[PRobb]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

OK...I kinda don't understand something here....if this is Bob C's thread, then ...with all of Bob's experience and knowledge...why ask such a question....I'm sure that Bob is fully aware of the reasons someone would choose a mono element over more choices avaiilable for mixing...and I'm sure he would know what to do with that mono element....and I'm also sure that he can appreciate the immediacy of a mono kit...is this just for shits or what?

Actually, I find the idea that a guy who has mixed more hit records than I've listened to still asks questions to be kind of encouraging. Hope for us mere mortals.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Analog stairs, too, I bet.

no fair ahahahahahha


.

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by PRobb

Actually, I find the idea that a guy who has mixed more hit records than I've listened to still asks questions to be kind of encouraging. Hope for us mere mortals.

....I guess...kinda like Bob Rock asking "why are you guys using a 57 on the snare?...how 'bout using four mics/four tracks for more options?"...I mean, this would be valid ...just a funny question from someone with a ton of experience.

[maxim]

bob c wrote:

" But it would be hard for me to imagine a producer or artist saying to the engineer: “What ever you do, we don’t want to catch you recording a stereo pair of room mics for the drums!”"

not that you would necessarily hear me saying THAT, but, imo, a lot of artists/producers nowadays have more awareness of the impact of engineering choices than before

also, as budget recording increases, the number of input tracks can be limited to 16 or even 8, just like in the old days

so one track may be all that a producer can afford for the room...

[Led]

Originally Posted by poncival

The only thing that's funnier than that is when you get the usual 10 or 12 drum mics and then there are 8 random other mics in the room which got recorded "just for fun" and still no useable "room mics"

I kinda feel this way too, but there was this one time when a friend of mine who's main thing is playing trumpet recorded a kit and I thought all the mics he had arouns the studio were just out there to be used later, they were placed so randomly around the room. But he recorded them all and later he was cutting to just one of those mics for a tom fill only, or just one snare hit from another mic for 1 beat while muting the main kit mics. It was wierd but also strangely alluring. Not natural at all, but I liked it. I wouldn't do that sort of thing all the time, but it was interesting to watch because he has no engineering background, he was just doing things he liked the sound of. I learned some things from him.

[Absolute]

It gives the track that Stereo feel because its mono

Wait....what?


But seriously, picture a drumset way back in the room--so far its mono when it gets to you(dont get technical..you know what I mean). Thats why it works--its way behind the upfront kit sound.

Its also cool to put one mono mic way back on the left and one mono mic way back on the right. Then pan them Left and right in the mix. Poof, instant stereo

Hahahahahahahahahahahah.....and....hahahahaha hahaaaaa
That is classic...mono mic :)

[Curve Dominant]

Originally Posted by MixShmix

It also seems to fill up the center where I’d rather save room for the voice.

BINGO

Dear Mister MixShmix,

You could have started, and ended, this thread, with that one sentence.

NOTE TO RECORDING ENGINEERS: DON'T CLOG THE CENTER.

Because we need the lead vocalist to own that real estate. That is the musician who will sell (or not) the recording, after all.

Not the drummer, and certainly not the friggin' mono overhead drum mic.

SHEESH!

'Nuff said. Over and out.

-Eric Vincent @ Studio Curve Dominant

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Curve Dominant

SHEESH!

'Nuff said. Over and out.

-Eric Vincent @ Studio Curve Dominant

OK then. So, should I pan Kick left and Snare right - or do you prefer Kick right and Snare left??? SHEESH!

This is a silly statement. What did they do when recordings were mono?? I'm all for leaving room for Vox, but there's other ways to do it. It also depends on the style of music. Sometimes the punch of the drums should overtake a vocal. There is no "correct" way or "nuff said" statement that covers the "right" or "wrong" way to deal with these issues. I'll keep my mono room mic front and center for the time being, but thanks for the tip Eric!

[Curve Dominant]

Originally Posted by drBill

What did they do when recordings were mono??

I believe Terry from PSW has covered the stone-age methodology already.

Those folks from PSW are always good for that sort of thing.

Q: What did you do in the Stone Age when you had to rub two sticks together in order to have light and heat?

A: You logged onto PSW, and bitched about the fact that the two sticks were not related to anybody famous.

Oh.

[drundall]

I ALWAYS record a mono room.

It has a certain punch and power that stereo room tracks often don't.

Put it in the center and turn it up. If it sucks, it sucks. But check it out before you get pissed. Might just be totally cool.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Curve Dominant

I believe Terry from PSW has covered the stone-age methodology already.

Those folks from PSW are always good for that sort of thing.

Q: What did you do in the Stone Age when you had to rub two sticks together in order to have light and heat?

A: You logged onto PSW, and bitched about the fact that the two sticks were not related to anybody famous.

Oh.

Huh? What's that got to do with anything? I'll repeat my question - Did all mono recordings have obscured vocals because EVERYTHING was panned right in the same place as the vocal? Absurd....

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by MixShmix

Wow... you guys have all certainly put me in my—apparently over-the-hill—place! I just happen to still enjoy the way drums sound when I'm standing in front of them in a room, and like to get that "thing" in my mixes, which just isn't the same in mono. It's not necessarily the big, stupid 80's rock drum sound, just a bit of nice "air"... in stereo.

But then, I still wear my jeans fairly tight.

Although I hear that's coming back.

indeed it is. Binds a little though.

[Blast9]

LOL good one!

[joeshambro]

my mantra in recent tracking has been to overdo it -- storage space is dirt cheap, i generally have access to more preamp channels than i know what to do with, and there's got to be something to do with all the microphones i've been hoarding over the last couple years as prices on some really fun pieces has dropped considerably. i wind up cutting at least 5-7 tracks that aren't used in the final mix when it comes to drums and guitars.

that's assuming i'm also doing the mixing. when someone else is doing the mixing, i tend to go even further overboard so they have options.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by joeshambro

my mantra in recent tracking has been to overdo it -- storage space is dirt cheap, i generally have access to more preamp channels than i know what to do with, and there's got to be something to do with all the microphones i've been hoarding over the last couple years as prices on some really fun pieces has dropped considerably. i wind up cutting at least 5-7 tracks that aren't used in the final mix when it comes to drums and guitars.

that's assuming i'm also doing the mixing. when someone else is doing the mixing, i tend to go even further overboard so they have options.

Joe - that's a valid methodology, but so is combining two kick drum mics to one track, printing delay with the Lead Guitar and Chorusing with the keys and EQing the BGV's radically. Limiting options is a very real, very valid method of working. And one that has a rich and celebrated history in recording past - often yeilding a unique personality/mix that would have been diluted with too many "options". One could definately make the arguement that many of our classic recordings of the past would have been ruined if there had been 96 tracks to play with.

When I record, I try (albeit unsucessfully many times) to have the recording sound as much like a mix as possible with all faders at unity. That often suggests printing FX and EQing and limiting options to me. Then again, i have a strong vision about what I'm recording. If I don't have a clue about what the producer/writer/artist wants, i'd probably go your direction. cheers,

bp

[PRobb]

Originally Posted by joeshambro

my mantra in recent tracking has been to overdo it -- storage space is dirt cheap, i generally have access to more preamp channels than i know what to do with, and there's got to be something to do with all the microphones i've been hoarding over the last couple years as prices on some really fun pieces has dropped considerably. i wind up cutting at least 5-7 tracks that aren't used in the final mix when it comes to drums and guitars.

that's assuming i'm also doing the mixing. when someone else is doing the mixing, i tend to go even further overboard so they have options.

I agree. Particularly if someone else is mixing. In DAW world tracks are free. I'd rather be in a mix with tracks I don't need than wish I had something that isn't there.