What’s the deal with the mono drum room mic?

[MJGreene Audio]

Bob,
I have a couple of questions. How many times do you get room mics that are squashed so bad that you find them unusable? It may not be happening so much now but for awhile there was a lot of people that were distressor-ing them do death with the NUKE setting. What are your feelings about that?

Also, on the Del Amitri album how much of that sound is room mics and how much is digital or chamber? The song "Food for song" is perhaps one of the most amazing room sounds I have ever heard on record.

Michael Greene

[Fleaman]

Originally Posted by compasspnt

So then, a question:

If your room is, say, 20 feet wide, and the drums are at one end, and you want these stereo room microphones in order to sound like it would if you were at the other end of the room listening, would one person have two heads, twenty feet apart, at either side of the room? Or would you and your one head be standing in one place at the back of the room?

I'm not saying that two mono room mics placed apart won't work for a recording/mix, just that it wouldn't sound as if one person were back there listening live.

So let's not pretend that this technique is simulating "reality of two ears." It is an artificial recording technique.

There's really not much "real" about recording.

If you want to simulate ears, try the Neumann binaural head.

How much of Rock and Pop is about simulating 'real' environments?

Limiting yourself to one production technique/sound (recreating real life) might work well with Classical, but then you might as well just wipe out the history of most Rock/Pop's recordings.

[Tripit]

a) Bob, why are you slumming it in GS?

b) The room isn't going to match your samples anyway, so why bother using it?

c) What would Jack Joseph do?

[Bob Olhsson]

It's a good way to fake the sound of leakage into a live vocal mike which was a very characteristic sound that was part of many pre-8-track recordings.

I didn't really appreciate this until I recently recorded something where there was no choice but to consciously make the vocal mike leakage an integral part of the drum sound.

[YZ!]

Originally Posted by compasspnt

So then, a question:

If your room is, say, 20 feet wide, and the drums are at one end, and you want these stereo room microphones in order to sound like it would if you were at the other end of the room listening, would one person have two heads, twenty feet apart, at either side of the room? Or would you and your one head be standing in one place at the back of the room?

I'm not saying that two mono room mics placed apart won't work for a recording/mix, just that it wouldn't sound as if one person were back there listening live.

So let's not pretend that this technique is simulating "reality of two ears." It is an artificial recording technique.

There's really not much "real" about recording.

If you want to simulate ears, try the Neumann binaural head.

I was talking about "room mics", not real stereo perspective.

and the Neumann head far away from the drums makes a cool surround for 5.1... but may not be what the artist/producer wants to add to the drum sound in stereo.

In pop/rock, IMHO, we track and mix for maximum emotional impact, not for reality.

We deliberately create surreal soundscapes to match the song and bring the listener into the atmosphere.

Which may, as I look in retrospect, include mono room mics...

[maxim]

i don't really care about mono micing, but i am concerned about lisa loeb's cat

sno-caps contain chocolate which is toxic to cats

as are raisins...

Foods You Should Not Feed Your Cat

[colinmiller]

compasspnt,

No one says the mics have to be 20 feet away. However, they should be if you want to capture the sound of someone listening from 20 feet away. The room mics are to capture what the drums actually sound like, not the close mics. The close mics are there to add the impact that the room mics can't capture. The reason is that when you are in the room with a drum kit, it's not just your ears that are picking up the sound, it's your whole body. The air is moving enough so that even if you had no hearing, you would still feel the drums playing. This feeling is not something that the room mics can capture since they would be like only hearing with your ears. The close mics are what give that impact that would represent the feeling of being there next to the kit.

Many people treat drum recording where the close mics are the sound of the kit and the room mic is some unnatural addition. But one doesn't put their ear up to each piece of the drum kit either do they? That's pretty unnatural. But the combination of the two are needed to recreate the experience of being in the room with the drums and if you leave either one of them out, then you won't get a natural sound.

So as you can see it actually works just the opposite of what you may have been trying to suggest. And back to Bob's original point, that when one is listening to a kit in the room, the ambience is coming from all around, not the center of the drum kit. Of course that unnatural sound may be just what someone wants, and that's completely fair. Regardless of what I say though, i don't want to give the impression that i think there is a right or wrong way of doing it. :-)

[Curve Dominant]

I'm with MixShmix on this one.

Whoever said something to the effect of "the producer wanted a mono overhead," just doesn't get it.

Engineers do not get paid to truncate options early in the process.

Somebody's got to mix the thing somewhere down the line. Give the guy some options, including the option of panning the overheads to mono if that will make or break the production.

Sheesh!

-Eric Vincent @ Studio Curve Dominant

[maxim]

"...producers do not get paid to truncate options early in the process"


i think they do...

[Curve Dominant]

Originally Posted by maxim

"...producers do not get paid to truncate options early in the process"

i think they do...

They better have a talk about that with their mix engineers before they do.

Clearly, in MixShmix's situation, there was a failure to communicate in that regard.

[txgator]

You might want to check out who compasspnt is. I'm pretty sure he knows a thing or 12 about drum recording

Originally Posted by colinmiller

compasspnt,

No one says the mics have to be 20 feet away. However, they should be if you want to capture the sound of someone listening from 20 feet away. The room mics are to capture what the drums actually sound like, not the close mics. The close mics are there to add the impact that the room mics can't capture. The reason is that when you are in the room with a drum kit, it's not just your ears that are picking up the sound, it's your whole body. The air is moving enough so that even if you had no hearing, you would still feel the drums playing. This feeling is not something that the room mics can capture since they would be like only hearing with your ears. The close mics are what give that impact that would represent the feeling of being there next to the kit.

Many people treat drum recording where the close mics are the sound of the kit and the room mic is some unnatural addition. But one doesn't put their ear up to each piece of the drum kit either do they? That's pretty unnatural. But the combination of the two are needed to recreate the experience of being in the room with the drums and if you leave either one of them out, then you won't get a natural sound.

So as you can see it actually works just the opposite of what you may have been trying to suggest. And back to Bob's original point, that when one is listening to a kit in the room, the ambience is coming from all around, not the center of the drum kit. Of course that unnatural sound may be just what someone wants, and that's completely fair. Regardless of what I say though, i don't want to give the impression that i think there is a right or wrong way of doing it. :-)

[stevep]

Originally Posted by MixShmix

Even though I’ve been doing this more years than I care to mention here, I’m the first to admit I don’t know anywhere near everything about recording. One of the reasons I’m still doing it is that I’m always learning new stuff, so please, someone tell me what this is all about!

Thank you very much.

This is whats so cool about recording, i started 25 years ago and i still learn something new in every session


who knows,.. maybe in tomorrows drum session i will hook up 12 of those dummy heads and place them all around the live room and record them all !



peace,



.

[robot gigante]

Fun thread. It's interesting to see everyone's different perspectives and expectations.

[colinmiller]

Originally Posted by txgator

You might want to check out who compasspnt is. I'm pretty sure he knows a thing or 12 about drum recording

I don't see how who the poster is would matter. Using room mics isn't like having two heads to listen with. It's an explanation as to why this is not the case. I assume pretty much everyone here knows a lot about drum recording. :-)

[Blast9]

Hello MixShmix - Out of curiosuty what does a mono room mic sound like through the 2 reverb chambers you have under your studio?

I believe they are different sized rooms? (or whatever you call 'em)

[Blast9]

PS Hello Terry

[compasspnt]

Thank you all for the information.

The reason I posted the rhetorical query was in response to earlier-in-the-thread comments about making the drums sound more realistic, given that we have two ears.

My point was that those two ears are mere inches apart.

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by txgator

You might want to check out who compasspnt is. I'm pretty sure he knows a thing or 12 about drum recording

Yup

[Drumsound]

Originally Posted by Curve Dominant

I'm with MixShmix on this one.

Whoever said something to the effect of "the producer wanted a mono overhead," just doesn't get it.

Engineers do not get paid to truncate options early in the process.

Somebody's got to mix the thing somewhere down the line. Give the guy some options, including the option of panning the overheads to mono if that will make or break the production.

Sheesh!

-Eric Vincent @ Studio Curve Dominant

The Producer (often in tandem with the artist) should be in charge of guiding the vision of the record. That vision may include a single mic for the entire drum-set or 40 mics for one guitar, or whatever it takes to get that vision across. If working as the engineer or with a dedicated engineer that person is in fact getting paid to "truncate options early in the process" if that is what the Producer wants.

Originally Posted by maxim

"...producers do not get paid to truncate options early in the process"


i think they do...

I'm with Maxim on this one.

Originally Posted by Curve Dominant

They better have a talk about that with their mix engineers before they do.

Clearly, in MixShmix's situation, there was a failure to communicate in that regard.

So the guy who comes into the project last after everything else has been done is the one who dictates how the record is done? That makes no sense at all. The mix engineer is not the Producer. the mix engineer is in charge of blending whatever tracks they receive. They can process them, effect them, make them louder or softer, place them in the stereo (or surround) field, make them brighter or darker and many many other things. They are however [i]not[//i] the Producer.

I don't believe there was failure to communicate. The Producer (and/or team that includes the Artist and Engineer) made a choice and communicated it by delivering a song or group of songs, with multitrack information that represents what was considered the best representation of said songs. It is now the mix engineer’s job to mix said tracks.

[toolskid]

that teaboy recall software looks VERY HANDY!!!!

other than that - I have nothing to add to the thread....

[MixShmix]

Wow, this is all very interesting!

First, I’d like to thank everyone for responding. I was asking an honest question and got quite a few excellent honest answers so I’m quite grateful. One of my favorite things about making records is that I’m still learning new (or, perhaps old) things. I didn’t mean for anyone to get bent out of shape about it, though. But I guess that’s just the nature of this type of forum—someone always ends up taking stuff too seriously!

I’ve actually tried all kinds of ways to use the mono room mic and quite often it does what most here say, it adds depth to the low end & mids of the sound, but not necessarily to the image. So I have another question: does anyone notice that the “picture” of the kit can get somewhat confusing? If the cymbals are stereo and the room mic is up the middle, it often appears to me that there’s two images of the kit sort of superimposed on each other—stereo overheads, then this other mono, more distant perspective in the center. If the room is stereo, it sort of blends in and sits behind or around the kit. To me, a mono room sounds separate and seems to appear in front of the kit, even though it’s a more distant sound. Not that that’s bad, it’s just an odd, somewhat confusing picture of the space and a bit distracting to my ears. It also seems to fill up the center where I’d rather save room for the voice. If it’s gated and/or compressed as some have suggested, the overall image is constantly shifting from mono to stereo. Does anyone else hear this stuff, or is it just me? Obviously, most here like this, which is totally cool with me. It’s actually a wacky sort of effect. (This is another thing I love about making records—everyone has different tastes and different approaches. It would be incredibly boring if all records sounded like mine!)

Of course, if the drums are mixed totally mono, there’s absolutely no problem. In fact, there’s been occasions where I’ve used only the mono room mic.

To those of you who pointed out how great the mono drums on many 60’s & early 70’s records sounded, especially Zeppelin’s John Bonham (and I totally agree), remember all those records were recorded on four, or at the most, eight tracks, so they really didn’t have much choice. The entire presentation of those records was quite different then. I’m not saying that that can’t still work, because it certainly can, but now we have many more options so why not use them?

Although, I would like to take back the bit about not recording stereo room mics being unprofessional. It was an emotional slip, and yes, an unprofessional comment. Consider me embarrassed.

I’ve spoken to the producer of my current project, and he said the way the room was recorded was never discussed. I believe this to be the case with most of the projects I get (whether it’s stereo, mono or both), that it’s just not something the producer or artist thinks about much—they usually just leave it up to the engineer. But it would be hard for me to imagine a producer or artist saying to the engineer: “What ever you do, we don’t want to catch you recording a stereo pair of room mics for the drums!”

[Drumsound]

Ya gotta love a guy with more "precious metal" on his walls then the rest of the board combined comming to us internet know it alls (myself included) to ask questions that he seriously wants answers to.

I applaud you Mr. C and I hope the record urns out well.

[Fleaman]

All fine points and I thank you B.C. for sharing your thoughts on this too.....I know I've learned some things from your posts.

[MixShmix]

Originally Posted by Drumsound

I applaud you Mr. C and I hope the record urns out well.

Thanks, Drumsound.

I hope you don't mind If I steal your Tchad Blake quote for my website—that's absolutely brilliant! He's a good friend of mine, besides being my hero.

[joelpatterson]

Well, in a vaguely on-topic tangent, someone saved my life last night with an oddball mono "room" mic. (I suppose that was me.)

Chorus with harpist in a church, I had a few stereo sets gangling about the room, but the bizzare thing was, none of them separately or together really gave me the detail they should have. At the last minute they had carted an upright piano into the front, and so I set an M-179 in cardioid up against its back, it is "facing" the stage, so the 179 was facing the wrong way, and getting the reflections off the back of the piano, which should by all rights have been pretty ghastly, but guess what? When I cranked that sucker and smashed the hell out of it... there was the detail that made everything else fall into place!

So in answer to the original question... you never know when some stupid misplaced mono room mic will hold the key to the highway.

Or... something.

[Drumsound]

Originally Posted by MixShmix

Thanks, Drumsound.

I hope you don't mind If I steal your Tchad Blake quote for my website—that's absolutely brilliant! He's a good friend of mine, besides being my hero.

Tchad Blake said that right here on Gearslutz when he was a guest moderator.

He's my hero too.

[c.gymer]

I'm something of a mid/side man for room mics as I tend to work in small rooms (mainly practice spaces or rooms in houses). This way I can choose to have a stereo or mono room.

I do like a mono ribon as an OH as well so that I have the option there for later, and I would normally use it as well!

[drBill]

Originally Posted by MixShmix

Wow, this is all very interesting!

First, I’d like to thank everyone for responding.

I agree! It's been quite an interesting discussion and one that has me ready to try a couple of new ideas. That's always good!

Originally Posted by MixShmix

I didn’t mean for anyone to get bent out of shape about it, though. But I guess that’s just the nature of this type of forum—someone always ends up taking stuff too seriously!

Originally Posted by MixShmix

Although, I would like to take back the bit about not recording stereo room mics being unprofessional. It was an emotional slip, and yes, an unprofessional comment. Consider me embarrassed.

I was pretty much hanging in there untill that comment, at which point I admit to getting a little steamed. Thanks for clearing that up though I appreciate it. I'm sure many others here do as well. If I pushed the limits too far I appologize as well.