What’s the deal with the mono drum room mic? - Page 2

daniel c · 8th December 2007, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drBill

If you can't make it sound good, pass it on to someone who can catch the vision. It's really pretty simple. For you to call everyone who records a mono room "unprofessional" is pretty unprofessional yourself. Maybe there's something to learn, eh?

I dunno, if there is anyone here who can make a judgement on what is unprofessional, then it would be MixSchmix

But I have to agree with the other posters that a mono room mic does provide a certain "glue" to the drum sound and depending on what result you are after, it may be all that you need as far as room mics go.

Sure there is a time and place for just a mono room mic and not a stereo pair, but you as the producer still have to choose a mixer dude who will get the most out of that setup. Maybe Chris Walla instead of MixSchmix for example

MixShmix · 8th December 2007, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drBill

No worries mate! If you get a mono room mic, instead of thinking they were lazy, unprofessional or didn't have the right gear, stop a second and wonder if maybe that's what they wanted. Then, think how you can improve the mix with what they gave you. Think outside the (stereo) box. I bet you'll end up with a better mix!

bp

Thanks! I'll definitely keep that in mind the next time it comes up, which I believe will be Tuesday.

...But what about surround? Never mind, those worms are probably better off left in the can. No one seems to care about that anymore anyway!

bobwarren · 8th December 2007, 02:38 AM

You could always copy and paste the mono two make a stereo pair if you absolutely needed stero. (Yuck, just kidding!) I am finding in the mixes handed to me have stereo OH's and Room and sound very similar. If the OH's caught the depth and width of the kit, I coud see where a mono room heavily treated would benefit the overall sound. But here's the thing: now all you guys have heard that mono rooms is the shiz, so for the next few years it's what we'll be dealing with becasue someone thought it to be cool. Wasn't the Eventide pitch shifter/doubler a standard for a number of years replacing an actual double? And when did it become Bible to position the drums in a mix with the toms panned across from left to right or vice versa depending on the drummer's or listener's perspetive? Obviously someone had the testicular fotitude to go against the grain and hand a mix engineer a mono room. Cool if you ask me. (If it sounded good, of coarse!)

Brad McGowan · 8th December 2007, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fleaman

Nothing is quite fatter than a mono mic down the center. Low end suffers the most with the phasing of multiple mics. Making the most out of both speakers equally (panned center) gets easier lows happening.

Stereo mics panned center never sync the low end like a mono room mic.

But again, there are no rules.

That's totally what is is for me. It's the way the low end comes across. I was recording stereo room mics for a while and recently went back to just the mono room mic panned up the center. Combined with the overheads it gives the drums the depth it needs. I don't want my drums to be roomy and super stereo...that's too much space eaten up in the mix by the drums alone. When I do record room mics in mono I'm using MS almost as a rule. I've also started doing my overheads in MS too. This gives me the ability to control the stereo width of the drums with one fader and have stereo drums when listening in headphones and fat mono drums when listening in the next room over. It's the best of both worlds. To be honest I'm really going away from having drums panned hard left and right and instead having them live in a more realistic space between 10:30 and 2:30.

Brad

thenoiseflower · 8th December 2007, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MixShmix

Thanks! I'll definitely keep that in mind the next time it comes up, which I believe will be Tuesday.

...But what about surround? Never mind, those worms are probably better off left in the can. No one seems to care about that anymore anyway!

I get what your saying, but if you try multing the mono room mic, send to all, same processing in all the surround busses (maybe not the LFE, bt hey, thats a whole differnent story, but hey, again its a mono sources sooo) just adjust levels to taste. its in mono, its gonna be phase accurate, translating that mono room sound to surround ain't to bad. you can really kinda do whatever you want front to rear and it will have the same MONONESS. with stereo ONLY mics you are locked into adjusting/compensating front back and width, way different Impact accross all channels.

I think...

Fleaman · 8th December 2007, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MixShmix

Even though I’ve been doing this more years than I care to mention here, I’m the first to admit I don’t know anywhere near everything about recording. One of the reasons I’m still doing it is that I’m always learning new stuff, so please, someone tell me what this is all about!

Thank you very much.

If anything most of us here are probably just refreshing what you already know. It's so cyclical.

Not only that, but some get tired or bored of doing things the same way, hence the trends of few tracks back in the day (ok, not a trend but a technical limit), to complicated tracks up the kazoo, to trends back to simpleton ways.

It's funny that in the '80's these big digital reverbed drums where all over the place and now these days many are going back to room mics for that natural sound even though digital reverbs finally sound a LOT better than before.

A wise man once said (Oscar Wilde actually); 'I'm not young enough to know everything.'

Yet there is always the danger of stubbornness in old age too.

(not referring to anyone in particular!)

daniel c · 8th December 2007, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MixShmix

Will somebody explain this phenomenon to me please.

Even though I’ve been doing this more years than I care to mention here, I’m the first to admit I don’t know anywhere near everything about recording. One of the reasons I’m still doing it is that I’m always learning new stuff, so please, someone tell me what this is all about!

My theory is that it is a 10 year cycle of throwing out the excesses and getting back to basics. You know, in 1991 when everbody threw out their expensive pointy guitars and started trawling through junk shops looking for cheap junk guitars from 1965 that never stay in tune

(sarcasm)

So it has come to pass, the terrible excesses of the stereo ambience pair have been tossed aside for the simple mono room mic. Funnily enough, most studios haven't reverted to 12 input valve mixers and mono, or even stereo (whoa!) tape machines...yet. Toss out your SSL MixShmix, I see the wave of change approaching

(again note the sarcasm)

bannerj · 8th December 2007, 03:01 AM

[quote=MixShmix;1680268Just for us idiots (like me) who may want to use them to add a bit of natural-sounding depth to the kit?[/QUOTE]

A good single mic with a good preamp can give you "natural-sounding depth" too. It is just a different feel, and this is the point of why some people are turning to just monos...we are trying to get away from the typical modern rock drum sound.

not_so_new · 8th December 2007, 03:07 AM

I am not 100% sure who "MixShmix" is but I have a hunch and my hunch is he doesn't need any lectures in recording or mixing....

So I will just say that everyone has different tastes and styles.

Much like Brad said above I have really been getting away from the whole drums striped from hard left to hard right for must stuff. There are times when that is what the song / band / style calls for it but there is something to be said for a more realistic approach as well. I am a drummer and even when I sit behind the kit I don't get that feeling of hard panned toms and cymbals.

Anyway, I think it is about style and preference as a musician, producer and engineer.

To put it another way, John Bonham has all the depth and space that I will ever need and most Zeppelin drums stuff sounds pretty close to mono. Certainly not spread across the stereo field for sure.

MixShmix · 8th December 2007, 03:14 AM

Wow... you guys have all certainly put me in my—apparently over-the-hill—place! I just happen to still enjoy the way drums sound when I'm standing in front of them in a room, and like to get that "thing" in my mixes, which just isn't the same in mono. It's not necessarily the big, stupid 80's rock drum sound, just a bit of nice "air"... in stereo.

But then, I still wear my jeans fairly tight.

Although I hear that's coming back.

drBill · 8th December 2007, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MixShmix

...But what about surround? Never mind, those worms are probably better off left in the can. No one seems to care about that anymore anyway!

You must be doing big records since 33% of the releases in 2006 were digital (STEREO mp3) only releases. (Soundscan stats)

I love surround and fight to be able to do it - but even on films (my main gig) it seems to be happening less than a couple years ago due to shrinking budgets.

My favorite is mixing premixed shows in live venues running 7.1 + multiple location speakers. (Sometimes up to 24 channels.

) Next after that, I like mixing for the IMAX format.

If I was mixing surround for any of those formats, I'd absolutely do as you said and have two wide mics in addition to the front "mono" mic - whether or not I was mixing with the "C" channel. When doing big budget stuff with a large drum sound in surround, my preference is to have a mono close in - 6-8 feet out - dead in front of the kick and at chest level (ribbon prefered), two wide (tube LDC's prefered) in front of the kit and back enough too get the sound of the room (to taste), and another pair in back (depending on the drummers physical setup in the room. Or, they could be far down the room - again depending on the size.

For me, the mono room mic is more about defining the sound of the drum kit than capturing the ambience of the room.

Maybe that makes more sense to you now....

bp

PS - Bob, even though you've mixed some of my favorite records (I'm old too), I still like the mono drum room mic in fig 8. I dunno.....I just like the way it FEELS.

Kenny Gioia · 8th December 2007, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MixShmix

Lisa Loeb told me that Rasinettes make her car sick. I suggested she stick with Sno-Caps.

Why is she feeding her car dried fruits?

not_so_new · 8th December 2007, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Produceher

Why is she feeding her car dried fruits?

LOL

Actually in all seriousness, I don't know about cats (or cars

) but raisins and grapes can make dogs really sick. Like chocolate, onions and garlic, raisins can actually kill a dog so please be careful.

Home-Human Foods that Poison Pets

LongWave · 8th December 2007, 03:27 AM

i love mono room mics, i think it gives a nice solid focus to everything. i already track a stereo pair of room though.

daniel c · 8th December 2007, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MixShmix

I just happen to still enjoy the way drums sound when I'm standing in front of them in a room, and like to get that "thing" in my mixes, which just isn't the same in mono. It's not necessarily the big, stupid 80's rock drum sound, just a bit of nice "air"... in stereo.

Agreed. I always track a stereo pair for that sound. Can't get it from a mono mic, even though it is a very good effect in its own way. YMMV.

blackwatch5805 · 8th December 2007, 03:53 AM

to me the main use for a mono mic is to compress hard and get trash can drum sounds for "loopy" type sections of a song. get a cool lo-fi loop without opening reason.

colinmiller · 8th December 2007, 03:59 AM

The OP is a question I have always wondered but have always been too afraid to ask because I feel like maybe we all went to recording school and I missed the day where this was covered or something. I often get tracks with a mono room mic and don't know what to do with it. Up the middle often sounds unnatural, unless its one of those tunes where the drums sound better mono. But most of the times I end up re-creating the room sound with IRs I have made myself over the course of time or re-amping. Whenever I go to a new studio, I generally create some IRs of the studio to add to my collection so better chance of having a room that fits the recording on tape. And then running that mono room track into the IR helps a lot. And it also fixes the problem with working in surround since some are recorded in surround. I don't record mine in surround, but using 2 works just fine since putting it in the center or sub doesn't really do anything useful.

But to me the room mics are by far the most important thing, so when tracking I spend most of my time on this. I also don't get the notion that doings so makes everything hard left and right. If you pan those room mics (assuming it's recorded right), then things are not going to sound hard panned. They are doing to sound the way they would if one were standing in the room with the kit. The cymbals and toms are not going to be coming out of just one speaker or the other, they are going to be placed where they are on the actual kit. I have recorded mono room mics in addition to stereo. Partly because I see other people do it and think maybe it's what's supposed to be done, since I missed that day in audio class that everyone else showed up for. But usually I will find the crappiest mic I can for this and compress it a lot and put it in the most odd sounding place with the intent that maybe at some point in the production there could be a use to lo-fi the drums for a few bars and use nothing but that mic. Sort of a just in case situation. But I am also odd in that I don't use overheads when recording drums either (well, that's not always true). I think it's overheads where people get in trouble with the too wide drums. A lot of people put the overheads too close and use them as cymbal mics, and not overheads. For me, I just want to capture what the kit sounds like. I can screw it up later if I want.

On an opposite note, I am all for doing things unnaturally despite my general mindset to record drums as they actually sound. As I don't like the idea of a right way to record. So if someone thinks a mono room despite sounding unnatural (not to imply that is always the case), or triggering samples, or whatever techniques are unnatural, work for the song, then I give a thumbs up.

Just my 2 cents.

Colin
Teaboy Homepage!

MixShmix · 8th December 2007, 07:11 AM

Thanks, Colin. That makes me feel better. Glad to know I'm not the only one who still likes natural-sounding drums once in a while. Although I'm definitely going to get into that mono ambience mic thing all the kids are talking about!

I do end up using it for a sort of loop-ish effect sometimes which certainly can work quite well.

P.S. BTW, I love your recall software idea. Looking forward to using it.

thenoiseflower · 8th December 2007, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drBill

For me, the mono room mic is more about defining the sound of the drum kit than capturing the ambience of the room.

thats how I feel it too.

Quote:

PS - Bob, even though you've mixed some of my favorite records (I'm old too), I still like the mono drum room mic in fig 8. I dunno.....I just like the way it FEELS.

yeah, he could mix me into a snowball if he wanted....
I'm tracking stereo when my tracks go to you

Whatever may have been my first great "WOW this sounds amazing" , moment.

I was like 11 and that record totaly connected with me. wow, cool

don't you have a quote somewhere about absurd stereo micing tecniques, "there is something to everything, that is the problem" something like that

not_so_new · 8th December 2007, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MixShmix

Thanks, Colin. That makes me feel better. Glad to know I'm not the only one who still likes natural-sounding drums once in a while. .

You know... I am ALL about natural sounding drums, they don't always work for every recording but I do tend to lean in that direction when I can.

I know the argument is that we have two ears so we should record two mics and honestly that is usually what I do but I tend to find in the mix they end up getting pulled in a little anyway.

I think my mind's ear hears drums taking up the center with the bass and the vocals, everything else is sort of outside that. To me that is natural, that or I have just gotten used to it.

I don't have a problem with 60's "drums in one speaker and vocals in the other" recordings but that is not what sounds natural to me. Same with the radical panning of toms and stuff, it's cool but it's not what I hear in my head for most stuff.

I guess what I am saying is I have mixed mono drum room mics that others have tracked and had good results but if I tracked it I usually go with stereo.... it's late, I am rambling... good night...

LOL

colinmiller · 8th December 2007, 08:52 AM

I should also add that I have done countless drum recordings where I have only used 1 mic. As in 1 mic for the entire kit. But that's a different kind of sound all together. I recorded and mixed an album for Speech of Arrested Development where we had a rule of only 1 mic allowed for drums on the entire album. Just to make us work harder at being creative and different. Although I think we broke the rule when one of the drum kits was made out of cardboard boxes. I think that song had about 16 tracks of alto bass (dunno what to call it but it was a bass in a higher register) that reminded me of queen.

But other than that kind of thing, I prefer a stereo drum room. :-)

avare · 8th December 2007, 09:25 AM

I have been following this thread since its start.

Are you mixing or are you the producer? Work with what is given to you by the creative types. If you don't like it, or know what to do, then turn down the job.

Andre

RoundBadge · 8th December 2007, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avare

Are you mixing or are you the producer? Work with what is given to you by the creative types. If you don't like it, or know what to do, then turn down the job.

Andre

Well..umm..he's a mixer

..

alnico · 8th December 2007, 10:37 AM

A mono room can be cool but it's the stereo room image that makes things exciting to where its feels like the sound is actually moving around in the stereo field and it can make a sterile drum sound come alive...

Umlaaat · 8th December 2007, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

That's totally what is is for me. It's the way the low end comes across. I was recording stereo room mics for a while and recently went back to just the mono room mic panned up the center. Combined with the overheads it gives the drums the depth it needs. I don't want my drums to be roomy and super stereo...that's too much space eaten up in the mix by the drums alone. When I do record room mics in mono I'm using MS almost as a rule. I've also started doing my overheads in MS too. This gives me the ability to control the stereo width of the drums with one fader and have stereo drums when listening in headphones and fat mono drums when listening in the next room over. It's the best of both worlds. To be honest I'm really going away from having drums panned hard left and right and instead having them live in a more realistic space between 10:30 and 2:30.

Brad

could you elaborate a bit more on: "This gives me the ability to control the stereo width of the drums with one fader and have stereo drums when listening in headphones and fat mono drums when listening in the next room over. It's the best of both worlds."

juniorhifikit · 8th December 2007, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MixShmix

But then, I still wear my jeans fairly tight.

Although I hear that's coming back.

You are SO in luck! It's REALLY popular in ol' Paris so I'd imagine it'll be there in the U.S. just in time for your spring shopping needs!

there's no stoppin' the cretins from hoppin'!

(still love that Tuff Darts rec

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8th December 2007, 03:07 AM	#39
not_so_new Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,591	I am not 100% sure who "MixShmix" is but I have a hunch and my hunch is he doesn't need any lectures in recording or mixing.... So I will just say that everyone has different tastes and styles. Much like Brad said above I have really been getting away from the whole drums striped from hard left to hard right for must stuff. There are times when that is what the song / band / style calls for it but there is something to be said for a more realistic approach as well. I am a drummer and even when I sit behind the kit I don't get that feeling of hard panned toms and cymbals. Anyway, I think it is about style and preference as a musician, producer and engineer. To put it another way, John Bonham has all the depth and space that I will ever need and most Zeppelin drums stuff sounds pretty close to mono. Certainly not spread across the stereo field for sure. __________________ Michael

8th December 2007, 03:14 AM	#40
MixShmix Gear Head Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Neptune Posts: 73	Wow... you guys have all certainly put me in my—apparently over-the-hill—place! I just happen to still enjoy the way drums sound when I'm standing in front of them in a room, and like to get that "thing" in my mixes, which just isn't the same in mono. It's not necessarily the big, stupid 80's rock drum sound, just a bit of nice "air"... in stereo. But then, I still wear my jeans fairly tight. Although I hear that's coming back. __________________ What the hell is that noise?

8th December 2007, 07:11 AM	#48
MixShmix Gear Head Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Neptune Posts: 73	Thanks, Colin. That makes me feel better. Glad to know I'm not the only one who still likes natural-sounding drums once in a while. Although I'm definitely going to get into that mono ambience mic thing all the kids are talking about! I do end up using it for a sort of loop-ish effect sometimes which certainly can work quite well. P.S. BTW, I love your recall software idea. Looking forward to using it. __________________ What the hell is that noise?

8th December 2007, 02:38 AM	#33
bobwarren Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 720	You could always copy and paste the mono two make a stereo pair if you absolutely needed stero. (Yuck, just kidding!) I am finding in the mixes handed to me have stereo OH's and Room and sound very similar. If the OH's caught the depth and width of the kit, I coud see where a mono room heavily treated would benefit the overall sound. But here's the thing: now all you guys have heard that mono rooms is the shiz, so for the next few years it's what we'll be dealing with becasue someone thought it to be cool. Wasn't the Eventide pitch shifter/doubler a standard for a number of years replacing an actual double? And when did it become Bible to position the drums in a mix with the toms panned across from left to right or vice versa depending on the drummer's or listener's perspetive? Obviously someone had the testicular fotitude to go against the grain and hand a mix engineer a mono room. Cool if you ask me. (If it sounded good, of coarse!)

8th December 2007, 03:01 AM	#38
bannerj Gear addict Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 433	[quote=MixShmix;1680268Just for us idiots (like me) who may want to use them to add a bit of natural-sounding depth to the kit?[/QUOTE] A good single mic with a good preamp can give you "natural-sounding depth" too. It is just a different feel, and this is the point of why some people are turning to just monos...we are trying to get away from the typical modern rock drum sound.

8th December 2007, 03:27 AM	#44
LongWave Gear addict Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 402	i love mono room mics, i think it gives a nice solid focus to everything. i already track a stereo pair of room though.

8th December 2007, 03:53 AM	#46
blackwatch5805 Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Norman Posts: 231	to me the main use for a mono mic is to compress hard and get trash can drum sounds for "loopy" type sections of a song. get a cool lo-fi loop without opening reason.

8th December 2007, 03:59 AM	#47
colinmiller Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Santa Cruz Posts: 1,662	The OP is a question I have always wondered but have always been too afraid to ask because I feel like maybe we all went to recording school and I missed the day where this was covered or something. I often get tracks with a mono room mic and don't know what to do with it. Up the middle often sounds unnatural, unless its one of those tunes where the drums sound better mono. But most of the times I end up re-creating the room sound with IRs I have made myself over the course of time or re-amping. Whenever I go to a new studio, I generally create some IRs of the studio to add to my collection so better chance of having a room that fits the recording on tape. And then running that mono room track into the IR helps a lot. And it also fixes the problem with working in surround since some are recorded in surround. I don't record mine in surround, but using 2 works just fine since putting it in the center or sub doesn't really do anything useful. But to me the room mics are by far the most important thing, so when tracking I spend most of my time on this. I also don't get the notion that doings so makes everything hard left and right. If you pan those room mics (assuming it's recorded right), then things are not going to sound hard panned. They are doing to sound the way they would if one were standing in the room with the kit. The cymbals and toms are not going to be coming out of just one speaker or the other, they are going to be placed where they are on the actual kit. I have recorded mono room mics in addition to stereo. Partly because I see other people do it and think maybe it's what's supposed to be done, since I missed that day in audio class that everyone else showed up for. But usually I will find the crappiest mic I can for this and compress it a lot and put it in the most odd sounding place with the intent that maybe at some point in the production there could be a use to lo-fi the drums for a few bars and use nothing but that mic. Sort of a just in case situation. But I am also odd in that I don't use overheads when recording drums either (well, that's not always true). I think it's overheads where people get in trouble with the too wide drums. A lot of people put the overheads too close and use them as cymbal mics, and not overheads. For me, I just want to capture what the kit sounds like. I can screw it up later if I want. On an opposite note, I am all for doing things unnaturally despite my general mindset to record drums as they actually sound. As I don't like the idea of a right way to record. So if someone thinks a mono room despite sounding unnatural (not to imply that is always the case), or triggering samples, or whatever techniques are unnatural, work for the song, then I give a thumbs up. Just my 2 cents. Colin Teaboy Homepage!

8th December 2007, 08:52 AM	#51
colinmiller Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Santa Cruz Posts: 1,662	I should also add that I have done countless drum recordings where I have only used 1 mic. As in 1 mic for the entire kit. But that's a different kind of sound all together. I recorded and mixed an album for Speech of Arrested Development where we had a rule of only 1 mic allowed for drums on the entire album. Just to make us work harder at being creative and different. Although I think we broke the rule when one of the drum kits was made out of cardboard boxes. I think that song had about 16 tracks of alto bass (dunno what to call it but it was a bass in a higher register) that reminded me of queen. But other than that kind of thing, I prefer a stereo drum room. :-)

8th December 2007, 09:25 AM	#52
avare Lives for gear Join Date: May 2004 Location: Hamilton, On Canada Posts: 948	I have been following this thread since its start. Are you mixing or are you the producer? Work with what is given to you by the creative types. If you don't like it, or know what to do, then turn down the job. Andre

8th December 2007, 10:37 AM	#54
alnico Gear addict Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: USA Posts: 429	A mono room can be cool but it's the stereo room image that makes things exciting to where its feels like the sound is actually moving around in the stereo field and it can make a sterile drum sound come alive...