Ok I give up.........Help! mix engineers..please

[butterfly]

I figured this was the best forum since this seems to be where the majority of the rock topics seem to come up. Ok I'm a songwriter.....not an engineer as will be patently obvoius to anyone who listens to the track below. I write in a variety of diff styles most rnb/pop however am putting to-gether a show reel of my work at the moment and I am planning to put some diff stuff on as well just to suggest versatility, I don't think the track is particularly poppy even from a rock point of view and i'm not sure I could see another artist doing this track but it might be good for soundtrack type stuff....anyway I have been on this for months and it's driving me crazy. I dug the track out of my hard drive (where all my many ideas await fruition) about 6 months ago.. and thought mmm time to develop this. So messed with some ideas...thought, needs some guitar, so gave it to a friend I often work with and he tracked some guitar, my brother who is also my writing/production partner put some keyboards down....then we spent a few weeks programmeing drums and bass and at this point it had a kind of elecro-ish feel....... then we thought u know what this needs some real drums, anyway when we put the real drums in.......guess what, we decided to replace the programmed moog part which had been driving the song but now felt a little stiff, with some real bass. I had already added an intro, a sort of pastiche of a latin plain chant which I felt gave the track a little twist of unexpectedness. Anyway now have nigh on 70 audio tracks. I had up until now thought, yeah I can mix this.....however there are now so many elements and i don't have a treated room, or great monitoring. So am looking for someone who can make sense of this "monster". We are relatively happy with the arrangement.......I think the guitars are ok in the verses but sound tinny in the chorus...tracked with low end gear into guitar rig, I'm afraid. The bass part isn't really sitting and I'm not 100% happy with the guitar solo either. So may track these again. Anyway could really do with two things here, some comments about what is and is not working and MOST importantly someone who would be willing to try their hand at mixing this for not too exorbitant a fee. Ok just realised the max size for an mp3 is 6.00mb so will post this now and go back and make a smaller file to upload. So couple of minutes while i switch drives.

[butterfly]

ok here is file. Thanks in advance

[steffo]

Honestly I don't think it's a mix engineer you should be looking for but a producer.

[butterfly]

ok steffo could u elaborate

[DamnYankee]

Originally Posted by butterfly

I figured this was the best forum since this seems to be where the majority of the rock topics seem to come up. Ok I'm a songwriter.....not an engineer as will be patently obvoius to anyone who listens to the track below. I write in a variety of diff styles most rnb/pop however am putting to-gether a show reel of my work at the moment and I am planning to put some diff stuff on as well just to suggest versatility, I don't think the track is particularly poppy even from a rock point of view and i'm not sure I could see another artist doing this track but it might be good for soundtrack type stuff....anyway I have been on this for months and it's driving me crazy. I dug the track out of my hard drive (where all my many ideas await fruition) about 6 months ago.. and thought mmm time to develop this. So messed with some ideas...thought, needs some guitar, so gave it to a friend I often work with and he tracked some guitar, my brother who is also my writing/production partner put some keyboards down....then we spent a few weeks programmeing drums and bass and at this point it had a kind of elecro-ish feel....... then we thought u know what this needs some real drums, anyway when we put the real drums in.......guess what, we decided to replace the programmed moog part which had been driving the song but now felt a little stiff, with some real bass. I had already added an intro, a sort of pastiche of a latin plain chant which I felt gave the track a little twist of unexpectedness. Anyway now have nigh on 70 audio tracks. I had up until now thought, yeah I can mix this.....however there are now so many elements and i don't have a treated room, or great monitoring. So am looking for someone who can make sense of this "monster". We are relatively happy with the arrangement.......I think the guitars are ok in the verses but sound tinny in the chorus...tracked with low end gear into guitar rig, I'm afraid. The bass part isn't really sitting and I'm not 100% happy with the guitar solo either. So may track these again. Anyway could really do with two things here, some comments about what is and is not working and MOST importantly someone who would be willing to try their hand at mixing this for not too exorbitant a fee. Ok just realised the max size for an mp3 is 6.00mb so will post this now and go back and make a smaller file to upload. So couple of minutes while i switch drives.

I REALLY like the song - nice job writing it. Just one thing: your comment of "tracked with low end gear" doesn't really matter; Tom Scholz of Boston fame proved you don't need high end gear to make great sounding records - and Harvey Gerst makes great sounding records with some "low end gear" as well. Remember: a great guitar player can play on anything and make it sound great; the same analogy applies to recording engineers as well.

Now, I'm far from an expert but being an audiophile, there's a few things I'm hearing/not hearing:

1. Intro: you may want to double track the medieval-like vocals to thicken them up. You may also want to consider adding a pronounced cathedral-like reverb to them. Also, you may want to consider giving those intro vocals a little shimmer effect like a very light chorus/phase/flange as well; I personally would add just enough to make it barely noticeable.

2. Vocals in the mix: I personally would double track them to thicken them up.

3. To me, the drums and bass guitar seem to be in the background and aren't standing out in the mix; plus the drums seem to lack sparkle (the drumming effort is fine). I'm not sure how you mic'ed your kit and I don't need to tell you that this is an area where you should use the right family of mics - and good mics at that. I personally use dynamic mics (EV PL-6/EV RE-55 on snare, Sennheiser 421 on toms, EV RE-18 on floor tom, EV RE-20 on kick). Speaking of kick, I use dbx compression with a keyed EQ with a little low end boost to give the kick a nice pronounced "thump". I do the same for the snare with a different frequency EQ boost to get the snare to sound like a gunshot. The cymbals sound a bit brittle...I'm not sure what mics you used on those and the high hat.

4. Your lead guitar is fine - but it sounds nearly the same volume as the rhythm; I'd consider giving the lead either a tad more volume or maybe a slight 2k eq boost or a combo of both. Here too, I'd consider double tracking all the guitar parts (and keyboard as well) to thicken them up.

5. The Moog parts to be seem a little flat. In the intro, you may want to consider a crescendo in volume as the Moog swells and becomes more pronounced and a decrescendo when it dies off OR you may want to pan it hard left to hard right (when it hits its peak swell, it'll be dead center and as it dies off, continue panning it over to the other channel.

The real experts in here will most likely have a different opinion and they'll be able help you...

Good luck!


DY

[butterfly]

Damn yankee, thanks so much for ur considered reponse. I do have a 7 sec verb, waves true verb on the choral vox at the beginning, it's 4 part harm with 2 voices to a part mp3 quality is so low that maybe it's not apparent. Once it gets into the "rock" part of the song the lead is just a single take, I suppose it could be multed and maybe an effect put on the mult and then ridden to taste. All the back vox harm's atre tripled or quadded. As for drums I didn't record them were done online and then sent to me....I think the guy....he is a slut here, Micke, did a great job and he did it for nothing. But would like to be able to make his drums sound as good as possible.....I think that's beyond me....I'm kind of ok with programmed drums. The bass is a bit of a problem since again it wasn't tracked here, the guy who plays with my brother did it on his system to a two track I sent him, which he eq'ed the bottom out of and said he would track at my place if I liked his ideas, i have a feeling that isn't going to happen since it took him 2 months just to do this and he's hard to pin down. The guitars in the choruses are 4 takes of power chords all going through a diff guitar rig. I have no outboard gear apart from my pre which is a tla 5051, not great but if u don't know any better it's ok. The keys I have done a bit of automation on some of the panning little synth parts I think. Al in all I just think it's beyond me to get a good mix on this.... mainly due to lack of experience........and poor monitoring and an untreated room. I'm glad u liked the song. That's my thing, I love to write but it's quite difficult for me to achieve my vision for my stuff without necessary gear and expertise.

[steffo]

I will try.

I don't think the production is that bad and If you hire a mixing engineer that is great he will find a place for everything in the mix and trash the elements he don't like. The most obvious problem in this production is (to me) the expression of the vocals, sometimes It's just "to much" in a bad way. I understand that it is supposed to be big/theatrical. The problem is that sometimes you(?) sound pretty forced/unnatural to me. Sometimes I think it is not crasy enough for this song. If you find someone you trust that can decide where to draw the line I think you could improve the vocals quite a bit. It is hard to do that yourself because you don't listen to yourself in an unbiased way.

I also think you should go over the edge totally when it is supposed to be BIG. A hysterical choir in the background of the chorus would be cool. The guitar solo is boring, do something crasy insteed. The guitar sound is not that great to me but that is a matter of taste (like everything though..)

[pilldriver]

nice song


get first some good monitors and make some DIY room treatment.

[DamnYankee]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Damn yankee, thanks so much for ur considered reponse. I do have a 7 sec verb, waves true verb on the choral vox at the beginning, it's 4 part harm with 2 voices to a part mp3 quality is so low that maybe it's not apparent. Once it gets into the "rock" part of the song the lead is just a single take, I suppose it could be multed and maybe an effect put on the mult and then ridden to taste. All the back vox harm's atre tripled or quadded. As for drums I didn't record them were done online and then sent to me....I think the guy....he is a slut here, Micke, did a great job and he did it for nothing. But would like to be able to make his drums sound as good as possible.....I think that's beyond me....I'm kind of ok with programmed drums. The bass is a bit of a problem since again it wasn't tracked here, the guy who plays with my brother did it on his system to a two track I sent him, which he eq'ed the bottom out of and said he would track at my place if I liked his ideas, i have a feeling that isn't going to happen since it took him 2 months just to do this and he's hard to pin down. The guitars in the choruses are 4 takes of power chords all going through a diff guitar rig. I have no outboard gear apart from my pre which is a tla 5051, not great but if u don't know any better it's ok. The keys I have done a bit of automation on some of the panning little synth parts I think. Al in all I just think it's beyond me to get a good mix on this.... mainly due to lack of experience........and poor monitoring and an untreated room. I'm glad u liked the song. That's my thing, I love to write but it's quite difficult for me to achieve my vision for my stuff without necessary gear and expertise.

In my limited opinion, even the best engineers in here cannot create a swan out of an ugly duckling - and what I mean by that is, they must have a solid recording to work with. Poor mpg quality isn't going to give you desired results.

Since you don't have necessary gear, my advice is to invest in studio time with the pros who have the appropriate gear OR invest in recording gear and spend time learning the gear so you know how to use it appropriately. Maybe others have a different view...but that's how I see it.

DY

[butterfly]

Yip Steff it's me on the vox............and I agree it's very difficult to be objective about ur own perf. rock singing is not really my natural domain, so I may have gone a bit too far on this one, problem is I wasn't sure if I even wanted my voice on this and as such it is consisdered a demo..........if I was going to retrack the lead vocal myself would probably take a bit more care, I just hit record and run into my bedroom and go......but thanks for ur input

[underworld]

here's my .02 worth. best of luck. nice tune. this is just opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. i tried to break down my comments by song section.

intro:
i'm not sure what you're going for here ... but it doesn't work for me. the falsetto voice seems out of place - i might reduce it in the mix. also - a big cathedral reverb would help. but there's something about the synth that detracts from this section as well. the synth part sounds a little "cheesy" for my tastes. if you're going for more of a "chant" feel - i would try a couple of things:

1) try a pipe organ instead?
2) try strings instead?
3) try just an ambient background sound or sounds instead

also - i would like to hear it "flow into" the rock intro ... maybe a nice echo delay or something to bring it into the song. something other than just a fade.

rock intro:
something is up with the guitar. it might be a bad tone, it might be mic'd too far away, it might be too much reverb. it might be all of those. but i want this guitar to be more up-front, in your face. also the bass needs more balls, the bass and drums are driving this part of the song.

verse 1: where's the guitar?
vocals don't fit the style that well on verse 1
throughout the vocals sound rather "pedestrian" ... the vocalist needs to really "perform" the song - he needs to add some character to the performance. he needs to open up a lot more on the bridge. he needs to be more aggressive tonally throughout.

pre-chorus: the arrangement needs to change on the bridge ... it needs to either thin out (maybe drop a keyboard or something), or pick up (add some guitars, backup vocals, something). it doens't "go" anywhere here - and it should!

the vocals need to open up here. he takes the melody up, which is nice, but the sound is "closed off" and tense sounding. the singer isn't bad - he just needs to adopt a more "rock" style.

chorus: double up all vocals

also - the long delay is nice, but i might add a short delay as well to the vocal.

the synth on the chorus also needs to "go somewhere". it seems monotonous here, but i hear an opportunity to take it up higher perhaps? maybe add some arpeggios with a feedback delay?

verse 2:
this sounds like the same as verse 1. i would add some little guitar riffs throughout this verse to fill in the gaps between vocals perhaps. backing vocals should be more prominent here as well.

the vocal part that descends "apathy ... cause better men ... " i would double that and add a falsetto octave up.

chorus 2:
same as earlier.
there's a little drum fill at 2:44 (tom build) that i barely notice, but it should have a lot more punch and "own" that transition.
also - it needs an additional guitar part or something to add interest. the guitar power chords might suffice on the first chorus, but again, it needs to go somewhere. i might minimally double the guitar chords an octave up, or some other inversion to give the guitar a change in timbre.

bridge:
there's a lot of space between the end of the vocal phrase and the start of the next vocal phrase. why not through some more tasty guitar riffs in there? or even a nice synth riff?

solo:
the solo is a little pedestrian as well. it needs to have something more. maybe take the chorus or verse melody and then improvise some additional riffs off of it?

verse 3:
the vocal phrasing is a little choppy. for example, "crumble and die ..." sounds like it should be more "crumble and die-----" hold out die, and carry it into the next phrase. this is where you are building to the final chorus and climax of the song. the vocal performance is better here, but once you bump up the earlier verses, the singer is going to have to really carry this verse through. instead of choppy, it needs to flow and build right into the chorus. WWLGD? (What would Lou Gramm do?)

chorus 3:
the vocals need to change up here again. take the chorus somewhere. add a higher-line? i keep hearing Lou Gramm on this one, just sail that last chorus up into the clouds!

end:
the fade chord is ok, but i might like a more abrupt chord ending here. we had that long-ish intro - we had the song, so - what's left? i think a more impactful ending. we are promoting revolution, after all, right? ;-)

additional note:
the synth is annoying because the tempo of the synth arpegiator or delay or something is out of sync with the song tempo. it's a little distracting.

the guitar tone is a little too "mushy" for me. i'd much prefer a crispier high-gain tone like a boogie or a bogner. something that has more balls and cuts through. this guitar tone is a little "light" for my taste.

the bass is also kinda "light". it needs something to beef it up a bit. maybe a nice compressor? perhaps a distressor would be good on it. i might even double the bass track, and eq one track for good low-end, put a high-pass filter on the other track and maybe even add a little distortion, then blend the two to taste.

the lead guitars also need a big boost in volume and in upper mids.

drums are OK - but could be improved overall. since the drums drive the song, i would start with a good drum sound and build the mix around the driving drums.

finally, the vocals sound fine - but are almost too "clean" sounding. maybe a mic/pre with a little more color? perhaps a distressor on the vocals? (that might be too much ... i dunno).

i kinda want to hear it this way:

vox
drums
bass
guitar, synth

but i kinda hear it this way right now:

vox
synth
guitar, bass, drums

one final comment - i just realized i would like some additional percussion to emphasize the rhythm. maybe a shaker on the down beats?

[tritone]

I like it. I'm not following all the lyrics, but I like the feel, and it's left me wanting to hear more of what it has to say - and that's good.
So, here's someting I'm hearing in my head in response to your song:

The plainsong part at the beginning - what, about 50 sec? Telescope it a bit, give us just enough to hear the main themes. (What is that...lux aeterna?...I don't know that material, but it's evocative...) Shorten it a bit so that if it catches my interest, it's then gone just a little too soon.

Then, study the chord progression and melodic structure of the plainsong compared with the chorus - especially "I want to dance with the devil..." etc. Find a way to make a reference to the plainsong theme, in the background vocals of the chorus. Quote a little of it, behind and in counterpoint to your front-stage protagonist, in some way that can harmonically fit. What are there, three reps of the chorus? Maybe not every time, probably not the first time that the chorus is stated, but on subsequent reps.

You see, what I'm hearing - and am interested in - is some internal conflict that's being sung about, and it could be dramatic in a different way to actually put those themes against one another.

Rob

[doorknocker]

I agree with most of the above suggestions about the sounds and would like to add a few things:

- I would totally skip the intro or if you insist on it then just keep the first 8 or so seconds.

- What's especially bothersome is that after the whole 50 second intro there's ANOTHER intro when the song starts before the vocals enter, nothing's happening there.

- I think it's tremendously important that a song gets into its groove off as soon as possible. 4:44 total length is too long anyway, I'd make it 3-minutes plus.

- I'd also get rid of the echo effects both from the guitars and vocals, it sounds dated.

- The guitar solo could work.....if you'd get David Gilmour to play it that is. It's not bad but it sounds ersatz-Floydish and doesn't add anything so CUT IT OUT, period.


But I like the song and the arrangement, with a bit of work you surely will get a nice track!

[butterfly]

Phew.........underworld Really appreciate u taking the time to do this.......u have dissected this good and proper. Ok Intro....heres what I was going for....in essenc the idea was both textural and I suppose intellectual.......I suppose I was juxtifying the secular with the non secular, trying to make a point about religion and it's "moral giudance" just being often an excuse for hypocracy I had planned to lay in some sampled text heer but it didn't work so.........there are some lowish strings here but was going for an ambient texture, possibly not realised ideally. I agree the intro should flow into verse better had thought about maybe some delays on the final vocal chord that grow and pulse into verse.

intro: Yes the guitar is less than overwhelming, u have desribed the sound I would like to hear also but guitar was tracked with my only preamp tla 5051 and the amp sim is guitar rig so..........

verse I: well there is guitar there can u not hear it or are u looking for diff guitar part? vocalist is me and as I explained I'm not really a rock singer so I think the agressive tone u wish to hear is not part of my arsenal.............though i suspect it could be faked with some diff tools and a bit of thought. Problem here is I consider this a demo so can't see it being released with me on it.........I'm glad u can hear lou gramm on it, I think it needs a really ballsy, gritty rock singer which just aint me. the vocals are all pretty much multi tracked in the choruses.....I don't think it needs more maybe just brought out in the mix. there is an eighth note delay with no feedback on the lead vox all the way through plus a smidge of verb. I dunno should I attempt to get a real rock singer to demo this.......but then begs the question demo it for who, since I'm not sure of my market on this one.....or should I regard it as making a record ie. looking to make it a finished product with a "star" performance........it's pretty difficult to get good rock singers round these parts. I agree that the bass isn't really driving the song with enough oomph.

[butterfly]

Door knocker, tritone thank you, it means a lot u have taken time to listen and think about the track. Seems there is a bit of work to be done before even thinking about mixing. And a recurrent theme regarding the intro........it's too long. I had considered the idea of incorporating it into the chorus somehow, several posters have suggested this idea....so seems like a winner.

[Unclenny]

Yep.......boil down the intro.

Sometimes it's tough to hear that with something that you have invested so much of yourself in, but that is why we all need Production Assistance.

I just went through it with my last project.......producer told me to scrap the intro.
I didn't hesitate to do it and I think the song was much better for it.....different, but better.

Best of luck with the tune.

[butterfly]

Cheers unclenny..........ok need to bite my lip and get the scissors out.

[DeathMonkey]

Originally Posted by Unclenny

Yep.......boil down the intro.
Best of luck with the tune.

Here's my crazy idea: Take 4 bars of the intro, and reverse it, make that your intro. People will get the idea, and it will add a cool sonic signature to the beginning of the tune. Then, take the guitar solo, harmonize it add crazy delays, and reverse it

I do this all the time, but I'm a hack.

[butterfly]

Here's my crazy idea: Take 4 bars of the intro, and reverse it, make that your intro. People will get the idea, and it will add a cool sonic signature to the beginning of the tune. Then, take the guitar solo, harmonize it add crazy delays, and reverse it

I do this all the time, but I'm a hack.

Ha ha, no, not so crazy.......i donno about reversing the intro would like to maitain some of integrity of the origonal idea.........but like ur idea on guitar solo

[DamnYankee]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Cheers unclenny..........ok need to bite my lip and get the scissors out.

One more word of advice:

This is YOUR song. You're going to have 20 different people tell you 20 different ways on how YOUR song should be structured. If your mix is the song you're hearing in your head, then stick with it.

Look at Zep's Stairway to Heaven - long Victorian intro with guitar & flutes. It doesn't fit in with the main part of the song but somehow, it works. Same goes for Van Halen's Seventh Seal - the long monk vocal intro really doesn't fit in with the main part of the song but somehow, that works too.

I personally like your intro - all of it - so keep it. As I mentioned this morning, give it a Lexicon cathedral reverb and some gentle shimmer (like a phase/flange) and it'll give it a cool vibe. By the time someone thinks, "wow - that's different & sounds pretty cool..." then WHAM - you'll be launching the main body of the song.

So bottom line: the song is what you're hearing in your head but the mix is not. Again, you're either going to have to invest in studio time and have the engineer help you get down what you hear in your head OR invest in gear and learn how to use it so you can get there yourself.

Best of luck,

DY

[tazman]

I think DamnYankee gave you the best advise below. Sometimes, when someone asks for mix suggestions, we all tend to give "production/arrangment" suggestions, but in the end the song should sound the way YOU want it to sound.

I am in the process of writing and recording my first album and am getting production advise and it's kind of tough at times so I have to compromise (i.e. I have recorded many albums for other bands, but this is going to be the first one with me singing, I hate my voice and am trying to learn to like it and use it correctly).

Rob

Originally Posted by DamnYankee

One more word of advice:

This is YOUR song. You're going to have 20 different people tell you 20 different ways on how YOUR song should be structured. If your mix is the song you're hearing in your head, then stick with it.

Look at Zep's Stairway to Heaven - long Victorian intro with guitar & flutes. It doesn't fit in with the main part of the song but somehow, it works. Same goes for Van Halen's Seventh Seal - the long monk vocal intro really doesn't fit in with the main part of the song but somehow, that works too.

I personally like your intro - all of it - so keep it. As I mentioned this morning, give it a Lexicon cathedral reverb and some gentle shimmer (like a phase/flange) and it'll give it a cool vibe. By the time someone thinks, "wow - that's different & sounds pretty cool..." then WHAM - you'll be launching the main body of the song.

So bottom line: the song is what you're hearing in your head but the mix is not. Again, you're either going to have to invest in studio time and have the engineer help you get down what you hear in your head OR invest in gear and learn how to use it so you can get there yourself.

Best of luck,

DY

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by tazman

I think DamnYankee gave you the best advise below. Sometimes, when someone asks for mix suggestions, we all tend to give "production/arrangment" suggestions....

Mixing decisions often ARE arrangement decisions, certainly so with most 'modern' pop/rock productions.

Originally Posted by tazman

... but in the end the song should sound the way YOU want it to sound.

No, it should sound the best that it can and that might mean leaving your ego behind and doing what's best for the music.

butterfly certainly realizes this or he wouldn't ask for suggestions here. And that's what it's about: suggestions.

Writing and performing a song doesn't automatically mean that you know how it should sound like.

[butterfly]

Mixing decisions often ARE arrangement decisions, certainly so with most 'modern' pop/rock productions.

agree, I think it's almost expected to-day for mix engineers to chop, replace and yes re-arrange. I have a pretty clear idea of how I want the song to sound but am prepared to concede to an informed majority....if everybody is saying the same thing then......maybe there is some truth in it, the main problem is that the intro has an arc to it which might be detroyed if it were shortened. I think it's probably premature to suggest that it might go against accepted "commercial" wisdom to have it as long as is.......however, as I mentioned I'm a writer in this context and don't neccessarly see myself as the ideal performer for the track thus if anyone else chooses to perform the track I assume these considerations might apply if the song made an album cut or whatever......however still have to try and get it by a&r without them skipping the track!

[Unclenny]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

Writing and performing a song doesn't automatically mean that you know how it should sound like.

So true...and so hard for a guy like me to accept.

This is a good song. Like many others, it just may need to evolve a little to gain broadstroke acceptance.

That said...and this is coming from a guy who writes and records his own stuff only.....if you like it like it is, keep it just that way.

Songs are a bit like stepping stones in that you move from one to the other toward an end. There may be elements of this composition that are important to your development as a songwriter.

[abit]

Sounds like revolution 2me.