converters reason for my problems ?

[flexoffset]

In my extremely humble opinion, great A/D converters are as important as great monitors and great talent.

I went from an M-Audio Delta 2496 to a Lynx L22 A/D and the improvement was easily noticeable....not subtle at all.
Crisper. Fuller. I could hear more of what was happening.

The Lynx is not ultra super high-end like those expensive stand-alone converters, but it's about the best PCI-based audio card on the market.

I'm not a high-rolling millionaire producer, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Your mileage may vary.

Here's an interesting site http://audio.rightmark.org/results.shtml that you could download and run the audio test (PC) and compare results graphically .... I know that probably doesn't help much but it's all they've got.

[jbuntz]

Don't sell your great river. You'll probably regret it. If you are tracking at 44.1, try 88.2. If the sound gets alot closer to where you want it, you're converters might just be a problem as cheaper converters don't sound so hot at lower sample rates. Converters and preamps are similar in that you can't really fully appreciate them until you do the whole song with them and see how stuff sits in a mix. Using your art preamp through nice converters probably isn't going to be an improvement. To most casual listeners, preamps make a subtle difference. Converters will be just as subtle if not more. The problem could also be the mic, room, mixing technique or god forbid, performance.

[brownmouse]

are you sure that the akg 414 is the right mic for the job? fwiw, its not a tool i personally reach for often.ymmv. sometimes a good dynamic is just what the doctor ordered. what don't you like about the vocal sound? also, what is your monitoring setup? don't sell the great river though.
good luck,
joshua

[djui5]

Originally posted by brownmouse
are you sure that the akg 414 is the right mic for the job? fwiw, its not a tool i personally reach for often.

I'll second this one...why don't you try some different mic's before you go selling great river gear and getting a/d's...

Start with the beginning of the chain and work your way back..

[genericperson]

maybe this would help:

take a cd you think sounds great. record it into the stereo analog converters on the Emu. then listen and see if it stinks up the sound real bad compared to the original.

[jt916]

IMHO

I agree with Brownmouse, is there a reason you like the 414 for your vocal?

If the answer is yes then the next logical place to look at is the convertor...do not sell the Great River, you need to look at the A/D for the Great River (Mytek, Lavry, Apogee, or Benchmark if you don't mind finding a 2nd job) then digitally into your recorder/DAW

hope that help

[MIKEHARRIS]

414 + great river = too much zing...antidote=tube compressor

[Jaguar]

i really like the akg on my voice, i have a rather thin voice
and the akg fats my voice up, i have checked many of the
mics up to 1k, nothing in this price region is as good
as the akg 414 tl II on my voice.

soundelux u195, brauner phantom c or neumann u87 are
the only mics coming to my mind, which would be worth to
check and which i could maybe afford.

but as i said i dont know if the difference between these mics
is what i need.

ive made the experience that on some level mics stop
to sound BETTER or WORSE, but to sound DIFFERENT.

so i really dont know if one of those mics would sound BETTER
or just DIFFERENT.

when i compared my akg 414 tl II to my former mics like akg 3000b or spl nugget it was definately BETTER not just DIFFERENT.

but would those mics be BETTER than my current mic ?
would a u87 be really BETTER than my akg ???

i dont think so...

but im 101 % sure that the akg 414 tl II can give you a professional sound, many singers and bands used them
for some of their songs or their whole album, so i cant believe it becuz of the mic.

it MUST BE the converters, i mean, im not deaf, but i seriously
couldnt hear a big difference between great river and art tps
and im so damn sure the great river sounds much better than
an art tps.

so put yourself in my position, i cannot spend much at moment, would you change the great river with an apogee minime, which would give you all you need (good converters, preamp, comp/limiter) or try to get a cheap rme card and keep the great river ???

or do you really think its becuz of my mic and a brauner phantom or neumann u87 would give me the BIG MODERN (pop/rnb) vocal sound im looking for ???

[jbuntz]

an sm57 can give you professional sound. it depends on what you are going for.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by jbuntz
an sm57 can give you professional sound. it depends on what you are going for.

im trying to get the big modern pop/rnb vocal sound, maybe enrique iglesias has the most similar voice and style like me, somethin like his vocal sound is what im looking for...

i dont think a shure sm57 can give me this kind of sound.

[djui5]

Originally posted by Jaguar
but im 101 % sure that the akg 414 tl II can give you a professional sound, many singers and bands used them
for some of their songs or their whole album, so i cant believe it becuz of the mic.

This is very true...but it's also true that there's a lot of professional equipment out there that won't sound good on certain instruments/voices. This is part of what seperates engineers from each other, being able to understand the differences and select the best piece for the job at hand.

it MUST BE the converters, i mean, im not deaf, but i seriously
couldnt hear a big difference between great river and art tps
and im so damn sure the great river sounds much better than
an art tps.

If there's no difference between the great river and the art it could be your mic also, if the incoming signal to either unit isn't at it's best then there won't be a drastic change between pre's (though you should hear a difference....even if it's tiny). It's also possible that neither pre is a good match for that perticular mic.

or do you really think its becuz of my mic and a brauner phantom or neumann u87 would give me the BIG MODERN (pop/rnb) vocal sound im looking for ???

Why don't you rent a mic from someone like dreamhire and find out? I recommend renting the brauner or something of that sort.....rent it for a day and see what happens.....

Then again..it's highly possible that it's your EMU interface's A/D like you said in the first place. Maybe try renting an A/D for a day?....that would be a better idea.

http://www.dreamhire.com/us/us.htm

They have an Apogee Rosetta that you can rent for $50 a day....


Full details of the Apogee Rosetta AD



Item Code: 101
Item: Apogee Rosetta AD
First Day: $50.00
Description: 24-bit/96kHz stereo a-d converter
Manufacturers Website: Take a Look?

give that a try...and if that don't work then get a new mic....

[brownmouse]

Originally posted by Jaguar
[
when i compared my akg 414 tl II to my former mics like akg 3000b or spl nugget it was definately BETTER not just DIFFERENT.

but would those mics be BETTER than my current mic ?
would a u87 be really BETTER than my akg ???
but im 101 % sure that the akg 414 tl II can give you a professional sound, many singers and bands used them
for some of their songs or their whole album, so i cant believe it becuz of the mic.
[/B]

sure, but you can get a 'professional' sound out of a shure 57... or a beyer m88 or a..... its all application dependant. in fact, 99% of the time i prefer a sm57 over a 414 (ymmv). what other mics have you tried? can you hear a difference between the preamps then?
if it was me (and it isn't) i'd hang onto the great river and grab a utilitarian dynamic or 3 (beyer m88, sennheiser 441, shure sm7, shure sm57, ev re-20, etc...) for not a lot of dough. i find these utlitarian mics, while don't hit as many home runs they do maintain a higher batting average.
then later you can fix the converters of add a soundelux u-195 (which 99.999% of the time murders the 414 for my applications. again, ymmv.) or another flavor mic.
one other thing to consider is that with preamps and converters i've noticed that the improvement is more noticeable as tracks accumulate...
your best bet is to rent or find a dealer that will allow to figure it out on your own and return the items that dont help.
good luck,
joshua
p.s. you never did say what your monitoring setup was....

[jpaudio]

I'll second the Soundelux U195 as a great general-purpose condenser, particularly useful for male vocals (only one guy in the past year that sounded not-so-great on it, and he ended up shining with a 57). Personally, there aren't many applications where a 414 is the be-all end-all... anytime i've tried it somewhere, something else beat it.

[Ruudman]

SM7 into Great River into Summit TLA-50,
now that's an upgrade not too pricey.

ruudman

[GearGuy]

Originally posted by djui5
Why don't you rent a mic from someone like dreamhire and find out? I recommend renting the brauner or something of that sort.....rent it for a day and see what happens.....

Then again..it's highly possible that it's your EMU interface's A/D like you said in the first place. Maybe try renting an A/D for a day?....that would be a better idea.

http://www.dreamhire.com/us/us.htm

They have an Apogee Rosetta that you can rent for $50 a day....


Full details of the Apogee Rosetta AD



Item Code: 101
Item: Apogee Rosetta AD
First Day: $50.00
Description: 24-bit/96kHz stereo a-d converter
Manufacturers Website: Take a Look?

give that a try...and if that don't work then get a new mic....

This guys lives in Germany. I don't think giving him details of dreamhire will help him much.

For what it is worth... I also think that the DSP mixer and software with the EMU audio interfaces is also suspect. I decided against getting one of these for my system (maybe the EmulatorX package for another PC) based on working with the software mixer. It's another layer of DSP code that is designed to affect the signal, not just to be transparent like RME's Totalmix, etc.

If you are sure that the C414 is the mic for you, I would go with convertors. Simply buy something that fits in your budget, and time your purchase to take place when you have some work going on. If the convertor doesn't help, you always have the option to return it.

[ShellTones]

Originally Posted by Jaguar

hi everybody,

so my first thought was, that i need better converters.
the emu 1212 is said to have the pro tools converters,
i cant believe that they are really that GOOD, since i cant hear
big differences between my great river and an art tps,
so i believe it MUST be the converters...

I doubt it is the converters. The Emu 1212 is reportedly outstanding for the price. I have used M-Audio converters (that are probably not as good) and could EASILY tell the difference between the Behringer mixer, M-Audio DMP3, Joemeek VC1Q, and Sebatron vmp2 preamps that I have owned.

I suggest you look/listen more closely to your room and monitoring chain. It is very difficult to make recording chain judgements if these two areas are not sufficiently addressed.

[Wayne]

An option to renting- Take your mic and pre to a nearby studio that has a nice converter, hire them for an hour.
But this also changes the (recording) room, and since noone's asked.. ?

[DAWgEAR]

I would not under any circumstance sell the GR. You've invested in one keeper piece of gear. Focus on bringing the rest up to its caliber. Move upward, not laterally -- or worse, down. Don't lose your long term focus!

Compared to prosumer pres, the GR is going to be more sophisticated and refined as opposed to "WOW!". Its strengths become apparent as you experiment with it and mix. Give yourself some time to learn and appreciate it.

Think of it this way: the first time you tasted beer (or coffee, or caviar), would you have been able to discern the differences between a great one and one that was just good?

What are you using to monitor? It may very well be that there are differences and you are listening on monitors that are not capable of revealing them to you. The differences between pres can be subtle. A thought.

As mentioned, I would get a Lynx Two or Lynx L22 if money is tight.

Also as mentioned I would also try different mics. A used U87ai to complement the AKG? My limited experience is that there can be a significant difference between the circa $1000 mics and $2000+. Can you rent one or two really nice mics to find out for yourself?

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by genericperson

maybe this would help:

take a cd you think sounds great. record it into the stereo analog converters on the Emu. then listen and see if it stinks up the sound real bad compared to the original.

This is great advice, and it's exactly what I always recommend when someone asks if their converters or sound card could be the reason their recordings sound bad. IMO it's never the converters, and almost always - stop me if you've heard this before - the acoustics of the room they're recording and/or mixing in.

--Ethan

[danasti]

Originally Posted by Jaguar

since i cant hear
big differences between my great river and an art tps,
so i believe it MUST be the converters...

I'd imagine it's the speakers.

Then focus on the room and the recording technique. Mic. Levels, mic placement.

Then those two mic amps will sound very, very, very different.

[RainbowStorm]

Think in frequencies... You are currently capturing certain vocal frequencies with a mic that interprets these frequencies. The result of that will be new frequencies, frequencies you are not satisfied with for whatever reason.

1. Start with the vocals:
- Are you recording vocals in good shape?
- Do you capture the vocals efficiently?

2. When nr 1 is controlled, move on to the mic choice.
- Have you optimized the mic choice based on the room and vocal frequencies?
- Have you configured it properly?

I think it's likely that one of these things will solve the problem for you. thumbsup

[Jaguar]

lol...

cant believe you guys brought something up, that is from 2 and a half years ago!!
i kept my great river (love it) and changed my converters to lynx. this solved the biggest problem for ME...thumbsup

[ShellTones]

Originally Posted by Jaguar

lol...

cant believe you guys brought something up, that is from 2 and a half years ago!!
i kept my great river (love it) and changed my converters to lynx. this solved the biggest problem for ME...thumbsup

YIKES! That was me. It was at the top of the forum (don't know why), so I assumed it was a recent thread.

So you really noticed that much difference between the Lynx and EMU? You didn't change anything else? Same monitoring system? Treated room?

[Jaguar]

Originally Posted by ShellTones

YIKES! That was me. It was at the top of the forum (don't know why), so I assumed it was a recent thread.

So you really noticed that much difference between the Lynx and EMU? You didn't change anything else? Same monitoring system? Treated room?

yeah, there was a BIG difference for me between the lynx and emu (note: for ME, this means with my equipment, in my room...and so on)

btw. for further improvement i later changed mic, room and got me some nice outboard compression and EQ. each of them helped my vocal sound a lot.

[corn55]

Jaguar, this is interesting to me, because I also have the Emu 1212m and have been fretting over this for a long time wondering if the "sound" I am missing is because of my converters. Great mics, great preamp, great room, great instruments, and an Emu 1212m....

Can you be more specific about how the sound changed when you went from the Emu to the Lynx? What I am looking for is your description of the overall ambience of the conversion.. Verstehen?

[popmann]

When discussing overall fidelity, I think converters are very important. But, if it's just the vocals bothering you, I doubt a converter is the culprit.

In the gear department, a pop vocal needs (in this order)

-the right mic
-a good compressor
-a good pre

Go rent a U67 and a La2a/la3a...1176 if you're singing "rock".

[YoungChampion]

tube comp...

then try your mic on omni maybe and don't suck when you sing... that will help.

[Jaguar]

Originally Posted by corn55

Jaguar, this is interesting to me, because I also have the Emu 1212m and have been fretting over this for a long time wondering if the "sound" I am missing is because of my converters. Great mics, great preamp, great room, great instruments, and an Emu 1212m....

Can you be more specific about how the sound changed when you went from the Emu to the Lynx? What I am looking for is your description of the overall ambience of the conversion.. Verstehen?

its hard to explain the difference. we thought the emu sounded like swiss cheese, it had holes if you know what i mean...it was like we were missing a lot of details in our sound. this changed with the lynx.

BUT to get the sound we could be happy with we had to change the mic & room and we got us some outboard comp and eq as well. every step was important and helped our sound a lot.

if i had to name the biggest factor (beside of the singer) i would say its the room. the difference between a good sounding room and a GREAT one (like in the big studios) is HUGE.