How do you develop good drum timing?

[ixnys]

I've relied so much on BT to make my drum tracks sound good. I really want to start relying on it less though.

I'm basically looking for tips on how to develop great timing playing to a steady click track. I practice playing to a metronome and even though I feel I'm playing in time with it, when I actually record myself, I can see that I'm still off a lot especially when it comes to the kick drum.

So drummers, please share how you have built up great timing.

[joeq]

For developing timing, nothing beats playing a lot of gigs- where a live band is depending on you for the time.


some metronome games:

practice with a pad and try to make each hit 'mask' the click of the metronome- if you can hear the metronome you are either early or late. because a pad is pretty quiet, you have to be Right On to block out the click sound. Try this at all tempos- extremely slow tempos are really hard to do

try getting consistently ahead of the click by a tiny little amount, then try getting consistently behind the click, by the same small amount

using only the light on the metronome (click sound off) , play along, then close your eyes and continue to play, then open your eyes and see how much you have drifted. Work to extend the amount of time you can keep your eyes closed.


as far as being off with the kick drum, monitoring is criltical. I have found that if I have the headphones on and the kick is too low or muddy in my mix, I will not be able to judge where I am putting it.

you have to go by sound, you can't rely on the feeling of impact on your foot.

[Fletcher]

Gigging is key... but learning to play to loops is usually a better way to A) stay in the pocket; B) learn to be able to groove with a pocket; C) hear/feel what you're trying to play with. The point of playing with a click when you're a drummer is to never hear the clicks [because there is a drum hit over them] which is kind of a daunting task.

Best of luck with it.

[not_so_new]

This is a very interesting question. I asked one of the best drummers in my area the same thing myself about 6 or 7 years ago. This guy is a meter master and I wanted to get a feel for how he got there so I asked "how do you develop meter?" He gave me one of the best answers I ever heard. Yes he mentioned all of the things everyone else did, practice, place with a metronome and "mask" the notes, play with a loop etc.

But the one thing he told me that helped the most was, just learn to pay attention to meter!!! If you take the time to pay attention to it, really pay attention, you will start to get it. I know it sounds easy but it does help to just concentrate when you are doing fills, grooving or even just listening to music. I have gotten to the point that I have better meter then almost anyone I record or play with (not being big headed it is just true). I hear things now in meter that most musicians do not, for what it is worth it really does help in production.

One other thing that he said that really is a key point, listen to good music with good meter and play with good players who have a sense of meter as well. I play along with records all the time as a drummer, it is fun actually, but after doing this for a few months you will start to see that some bands groove more than others. Playing with these CD's is like playing with the best musicians. Zeppelin, Steely Dan, Tool, Storyville, James Brown all bands that groove. This and paying attention to the groove has improved my meter more than anything.

Hope this helps!! That you are even concerned about it puts you a leg up on most musicians, rock on....

[bloodsweatfire]

It isn't necessarily a bad thing to 'drift' when playing with a click.
The best drummers I have played with have always been able to drift in and out of a click track with alot of feeling.

Too much 'dead on' and you lose your 'Pocket' or 'Groove'.

3rd vote for gigging.

If you can't or don't gig, play with a band as much as possible. Either way play.

[Fidelis]

To play with a click or sequecer/loops can give you a good sense of precision... masking the clic, etc...
But when you play live without a clic is totaly diferent. You need a good sense of time!
A good exercise to give you this is to program a four bar click with a drum machine or any sequencer and start deleting the latest clicks. Exemple: First erase the clic on tempos 3 and 4 of the last measure so you have silence (no clic) for half measure. Make shure you hit one when the sequencer comes back to bar one. Try at diferent tempos (slower is much more dificult) and with diferent grooves or even soloing. Once you get comfortable, start deleting more clics so you have more silence... and just DON'T look to the drum machine! Make shure to close your eyes and get your internal beat working! Tha's it, bro. Timing is everything.
And this execise works for all kind of music. You can play a James Brown type of groove or you can just play an open Jazz... Just make shure you have fun. Good luck.

[DirkB]

I've played live with a clicktrack for over 10 years, that certainly did help .

Fletchers' tip is good advice: play with a loop to get a sense of time but still feel the groove. The pitfall with a click is to always catch up when you've gone a little forward or behind...

Key is to develop your own internal clock so you don't hear the click anymore. Kinda scary sometimes during a bigger live show on a 20min medley.

Greetings,
Dirk

[Chae Ham]

If you really want to be an in the pocket FEEL drummer (something very lacking these days) go back to motown. LISTEN to drummers like Pistol and Benny Benjamin and study them. The first few times you listen to it you'll probably say ahhhh that's easy....its not that simple! For some solid groove school check out Steve Jordan's new video.

If you really want to be an all around GOOD drummer go back and check out people like Gene Kruppa, Papa Jo Jones, Art Blakey, Buddy Rich... Too many drummers these days can't understand anything outside of a 4/4, and because of that they don't have the depth to know how to dance around a straight ahead 4/4 and make it sound alive!

Exercises with a metronome is great for timing practice, but it won't teach you the history of drumming and grooving like studying those guys will.

Good Luck!

[dbluefield]

I'll throw this in:

I keep time with my left leg/HH - picked that up from a Jeff Porcaro clinic in the 80's - he said he lifted it from Bohnam.



Best,

Dave

[RKrizman]

Originally posted by ixnys
I've relied so much on BT to make my drum tracks sound good. I really want to start relying on it less though.

I'm basically looking for tips on how to develop great timing playing to a steady click track. I practice playing to a metronome and even though I feel I'm playing in time with it, when I actually record myself, I can see that I'm still off a lot especially when it comes to the kick drum.

So drummers, please share how you have built up great timing.

All the suggestions here are good, but I would add that you need to develop an attitude toward the clik. It is an artifical, authoritative device designed to corral your beats into manageable boxes, and you need to show it who's boss. You need to be passive agressive at time, withholding that snare hit until the last possible moment, forcing the clik to physically drag you along. Other times you need to bludgeon the front end of the clik and add front-of-the-beat energy that propels the tune in spite of the clik's regimentation. Sometimes you need to express your resentment of the clik by playing in a surley fashion. Other times you need to celebrate the clik's presence by dancing happily around it and thanking it for providing you with the security you need.

Playing in time with the clik is not the end, it is the beginning. However, your basic sense of time will improve as a byproduct of the above way of thinking.

-R

[ixnys]

Thanks for all the tips so far. It seems the main consesus is, is to keep on practicing. I don't have a problem with timing when it comes to guitar or bass, but with the drums it's so much harder.

A lot of times I THOUGHT I was playing it time when practicing to the metronome, but surely I wasn't. I was usually a little fast with my kick drum.

[dbluefield]

For Pravtice tips here's a few:

With alternating strokes, start your click (or left foot on 1/4 notes)

Play:
1/4 notes left & Right sticking 1 2 3 4
1/8 notes 1&2&3&4&
1/8 note triplets 1&a 2&a 3&a 4&a
1/16 notes 1e&a2e&a3e&a4e&a

Now try the same with your right foot on the bass drum.

With both exercises make your way to the 1/16th notes and then back down to the 1/4 notes.

This gives good practise with dividing time. (you can later work on odd divisions like 5's, 6/8 divisions etc. )

Another aspect of time is accents.

Here's an exercise.

Play 1/8 note triplets with click track..1&a 2&a 3&a 4&a

Now accent the "1" then the next measure accent the "&" note..and then the next measure accent the "a".

Repeat.

This gives you better awareness of how accents are played "in time".

Just a few Books -- Stick Control (the Bible); also very useful Ted Reeds Syncopation.

Hope this is of some help.

Best,

Dave

[smoothmoniker]

OK, slightly off topic, but i've got to share this story. A few years back, I was playing keyboards on tour with an artist, and Russ Miller was the MD and drummer. IMHO, Russ is one of the top technical players around right now, and has a monstrous sense of timing.

We were rolling with tracks on ADAT, which were off stage behind Russ, controlled by him from an LRC. Tracks 1-7 had various BGV, loop, and additional band tracks, and track 8 was the click track.

One night, the band's in-ear system went down. We were playing entirely by feel. We had no way of hearing our instruments, the tracks, or anything other than the acoustic drum sounds and whatever stage amping the guitarists had (not much). The only person with monitors was the artist up front, who was on a different system, and had supplimental wedges. Instead of shutting off the tracks, Russ spent the whole rest of the set playing to the meter lights on the ADAT for the click on track eight. Every 30 seconds or so, he would look over his shoulder and watch the meter for a measure or two, and then would turn back and continue playing. He stayed in perfect time to the tracks through the entire set, to the point where the FOH engineer didn't believe us later when we said that the monitors had gone down.

If you read Russ's instructional books, there's a section where he talks about practicing with Pro-tools. He'll print a click for 8 beats, then 30 seconds, a minute, two minutes of silence, then the click comes back in. The goal is to have timing so tight that you're bang on to the click when it comes back in. Clearly he practices what he preaches.

-sm

[cdog]

Originally posted by dbluefield


I keep time with my left leg/hh

This frees up your other 3 limbs to do interesting things... watch Dennis Chambers if you ever get the chance.

[Musiclab]

Originally posted by bloodsweatfire
It isn't necessarily a bad thing to 'drift' when playing with a click.
The best drummers I have played with have always been able to drift in and out of a click track with alot of feeling.

Too much 'dead on' and you lose your 'Pocket' or 'Groove'.

3rd vote for gigging.

If you can't or don't gig, play with a band as much as possible. Either way play.

.
gigging is not going to tell you whats happening with your time, unless everyone on stage is looking to kill you.Or what ifr everyone elses time sucks, how is that going to help? Practice with a metronome, a drum machine, loops and really pay attention to the meter. You can never be too
dead on, the more confident you are about time, the easier you will be able to groove.

[ixnys]

I'm more concerned with studio recording than gigging. When I jam with my buddies we are locked together even though we may drift. I'm just trying to get good at being dead on as far as placing the kick,snare, and hihat.

I don't chase the beat, I stay in the tempo, but it doesn't sound as good as I think I am doing once I playback what I just recorded. Mostly it's the kick.

But thanks for all the replies so far. Good tips.

[bassmac]

Slight drifting wonÕt be as noticeable if you record all the other tracks to the drums - instead of the other way around.

[2leod]

Hey bassmac,
Completely off topic, but I'm starting to feel a little silly for making fun of you in another thread. I'm seeing all your apostrophes as big "O"s with a little squiggles over them. Is it just me or is anyone else seeing that too?

[bassmac]

Originally posted by 2leod
Hey bassmac,
Completely off topic, but I'm starting to feel a little silly for making fun of you in another thread. I'm seeing all your apostrophes as big "O"s with a little squiggles over them. Is it just me or is anyone else seeing that too?

I must have missed it - should I laugh?

Ever since I switched to IE 5.1/Mac - a lot of punctuationÕs look like weird to me too.

[2leod]

I don't know about laugh... maybe a faint chuckle.
Here it is...
Too weird!

[bloodsweatfire]

Originally posted by Musiclab
.
gigging is not going to tell you whats happening with your time, unless everyone on stage is looking to kill you.Or what ifr everyone elses time sucks, how is that going to help? Practice with a metronome, a drum machine, loops and really pay attention to the meter. You can never be too
dead on, the more confident you are about time, the easier you will be able to groove.

I think you missed the point about gigging.
There are few ways that are more effective at improving a musicians skill level than live playing and lots of it.
The tightest bands in the world are not the ones who stay in the garage OR the studio and practice...

Any musician knows the rapid improvement gained by nights on the road..Gigging, in this case is simply a means to an end.

'Dead On' timing is a practiced skill like all things but the better the musician you are to begin with, the better your chances of developing that skill.

[Musiclab]

Originally posted by bloodsweatfire
I think you missed the point about gigging.
There are few ways that are more effective at improving a musicians skill level than live playing and lots of it.
The tightest bands in the world are not the ones who stay in the garage OR the studio and practice...

Any musician knows the rapid improvement gained by nights on the road..Gigging, in this case is simply a means to an end.

'Dead On' timing is a practiced skill like all things but the better the musician you are to begin with, the better your chances of developing that skill.

Nope I didnt miss the point at all. gigging is an important thing for a musician
but the skills for recording are different. you are much more under the microscope. for a drummer, your internal balance is far more critical, if you have to play to a click, how on and comfortable you are with the click will determine how good you sound. Its much more about really solid fundamentals. Live you can get away with much more, unless your playing to sequences. You need to do both live gigs and recording and practicing with a click and paying attention to your fundamentals.

[studjo]

Musiclab you played live? I mean at least 80 gigs a year?

I've never found a drummer sounding half decent when he practiced like a dog but didn't play in front of an audience.

YMMV Jo

[20to20]

When working with a click/drum loop I usually have it
sound on just the 2&4 backbeat (instead of 1,2,3,4)...

Or try it on just 1&3...

I find it's a lot easier to track over; allowing more freedom
to drag/rush/swing/nail/whatever along with the click...

Good luck,

[Musiclab]

Originally posted by studjo
Musiclab you played live? I mean at least 80 gigs a year?

I've never found a drummer sounding half decent when he practiced like a dog but didn't play in front of an audience.

YMMV Jo

I've earned my living as a guitar guy since 1975, and as an guitarist/audio engineer since 1984. I don't play out as much as I used to, but
I still do about 70 gigs a year. I've seen plenty of musicians play live who sounded OK live who were rudely suprised when recording. Recently I recorded a drummer and bassist from a broadway show. the drummers internal balance was dreadful but he was a great reader. The bass player had the worst sound I've ever had to deal with. I had to retrigger the kick to get a drum track and replace the bass. Another client would bring in a drummer who's time was great, but wasn't really consistent with his kick drum velocity. He hit everything else great, hat soft, snare hard, played really nice fills. It's wasn't so bad you'd notice it live but recording the kick would have/not have, top end from one hit to the next.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen guitars players warming up playing as fast as they can and when they have to play a straight eighth note pattern choke. being a real recording musician requires having really strong fundamentals. sometimes being a little weak in that area won't poke through
in the excitement of a live show, but will bite you in the ass recording.

[studjo]

Jo