Pulling my hair out mixing vocals...tried everything...any tips?

[tofu maniac]

I've been getting my mixes to sound really where i want them to be, but then when it come time to mix vocals i can't seem to get them to sit right. It takes effect on everything i do, and i dont want to finish anything because of this. I've spent hours, tried alot of things (going otb to compressors, 2 comps in my signal chain slow/fast, different eq, parallel compression, etc) but just can't seem to get it right, even a good starting point. I of course realise alot of this comes down to ones own ears, but i feel like i can pull everything else together well but then fall on my face when it comes to vocals. Any suggestions? I really want to find a new starting point, so any tips and advice would be appreciated...thanks in advance!!

[Marty J]

How does your mixing room sound? Are you using any treatment?

[rwhitney]

Cut below 100 hz
add 1.5 db at 5k (bell)
add some air with a shelf boost at 10k

It will sound perfect

[Andreas G]

Try to start with vocals first, then bass-guitar, drums.... etc.

Andreas

[seriousfun]

Start the mix with the vocals.

Make everything else fit around them.

[Meriphew]

How about bringing the vocals up first, then build your mix around them?

[seriousfun]

Originally Posted by Andreas G

Try to start with vocals first, then bass-guitar, drums.... etc.

Andreas

Originally Posted by Meriphew

How about bringing the vocals up first, then build your mix around them?

This advice sucks.

[rwhitney]

Originally Posted by Meriphew

How about bringing the vocals up first, then build your mix around them?

Does anyone besides Bob Clearmountain actually do this?

[RawDepth]

Can you upload a short excerpt of your vocals? Maybe the track just sucks and no one can make it sound good. No offense, but let's hear what you are working with.

[dbbubba]

A good vocalist is a good start.
A good vocal track can fit in many "positions" where-as a 'bad" vocal take can be hard to fit into place.

In all truthfullness I find that the proper mic and proper compression on the way in help a lot. The proper compression during mix is essential as well. Adding "air" helps and the 100 hz roll-off is pretty much a given.

I don't want to give it all away, but watch out for FX.

Listen to a lot of records and study what they use.
I always do this because it is always so fun to add FX (I try to stay with slap in rock stuff.)
By listening to what hit records use keeps me in check.
Vocals can be pretty dry and sound great if the vocalist is good.

Less is more in vocal work.

[soundawg]

Vocals first is a great thing to try.

WHATEVER you want to be your 'main focus' - - - is a great place to start.

Soundawg

[andychamp]

As has been suggested before: don't bring the vocals in too late, like when everything else sounds killer. That way you're painting yourself into a corner.

Try this: when mixing the instruments, keep the fader (real or virtual) of your unprocessed, unmixed vocal track open all the time.
Not as loud as in the final mix, just have it noticeably "there".This'll help you hear when other elements conflict with it.
Pull the fader down when you really need to concentrate on a single element, but bring it back in right after.
Some desks and DAWs let you set up a "mixed in" solo function that really helps with this approach.

When you finally get to properly processing and mixing the voice, it'll take much less tweaking to make everything blend.

[Clarence]

I've spent hours, tried alot of things (going otb to compressors, 2 comps in my signal chain slow/fast, different eq, parallel compression, etc)

Before you started doing all that, you carefully edited and automated your vocals, right?

Of course you did, just curious ...


Clarence

[davet]

Bobby Owsinski says if the vocal is the focal point of the mix, build around the vocal. Get it sounding like what you want, go from there. His advice was to bring the drums/percussion in next, then the rest of the instruments.

[grantlandau]

is it out of tune? usually the first problem if it just never sits right

[andychamp]

To the O.P.: are you yourself the singer in question?

Because it's really hard to be A)objective and B)satisfied when mixing one's own voice. This takes a lot of experience and self-assurance.

[dviola]

Originally Posted by seriousfun

This advice sucks.

This seems like a really bold statement to make and not contributing at all to helping our friend here. If you could offer some insight as to why this might not be a good idea in your opinion, I'm really interested to learn why. If the vocals are troublesome and after all (most likely) the "focus" of the song it makes perfect sense to me to get them sounding great on their own and build the rest of the mix around it.

I obviously don't know the song youre working on or what makes sense for this particular mix, but when its called for I find sending the vocals and some other tracks to the same reverb (at varying levels) can give it some glue.

Good Luck

[joeq]

Originally Posted by andychamp

To the O.P.: are you yourself the singer in question?

Because it's really hard to be A)objective and B)satisfied when mixing one's own voice. This takes a lot of experience and self-assurance.

+1

this is the first thought that came to me when reading the original post. Many people have a 'thing' about their own voice.

Some psychological studies indicate that this occurs completely outside of any musical consideration. that is to say people will get weird about their own voice even if just hearing playback of themselves speaking.

A possible solution would be to warp and distort the vocals with (somewhat) extreme filtering or effects. John Lennon is a famous example of someone who often wanted his voice to sound like something other than his voice.

[tofu maniac]

To the O.P.: are you yourself the singer in question?

Because it's really hard to be A)objective and B)satisfied when mixing one's own voice. This takes a lot of experience and self-assurance.

Actually this time, no. I have gone through that before, and I agree 100%!!

Vocals first is a great thing to try.

WHATEVER you want to be your 'main focus' - - - is a great place to start.

Funny, because I have always said in many other instances other than mixing "start with the hardest part first and conquer that"...but I thought this couldnt apply in mixing, that is starting with the vox first. Alot of you have suggested it, I may just have to try it that way...

As has been suggested before: don't bring the vocals in too late, like when everything else sounds killer. That way you're painting yourself into a corner.

so valid. thank you.

Try this: when mixing the instruments, keep the fader (real or virtual) of your unprocessed, unmixed vocal track open all the time.
Not as loud as in the final mix, just have it noticeably "there".This'll help you hear when other elements conflict with it.
Pull the fader down when you really need to concentrate on a single element, but bring it back in right after.
Some desks and DAWs let you set up a "mixed in" solo function that really helps with this approach.

When you finally get to properly processing and mixing the voice, it'll take much less tweaking to make everything blend.

this is a GREAT idea...

Before you started doing all that, you carefully edited and automated your vocals, right?

edited yes during the comping session...volume automation no...thanks...i completely over looked that! i was waiting for some reason...

Can you upload a short excerpt of your vocals? Maybe the track just sucks and no one can make it sound good. No offense, but let's hear what you are working with.

no offense taken! im new to the board...upload a WAV and imbed it right here?

Cut below 100 hz
add 1.5 db at 5k (bell)
add some air with a shelf boost at 10k

i didnt realise the 100hz cut was that much of a necessity. thank you...

How does your mixing room sound? Are you using any treatment?

haha my "mixing room" is my apartment. no treatment yet. im actually looking at the GIK traps. it is my next priority. my apartment layout is wierd, i have only one real corner, the rest are doorways, bookshelves. etc. the wall opposite my speakers has a huge painting on it, so that may be helping me a bit?!? despite the hardwood floors its pretty dead in here. i have been reading all the info on the realtraps and gik sites to educate myself, but in doing that i realised i have an odd shaped room. in the next few days i will take some photos and ask for some advice in a new thread. but i have to clean up a little first

Thanks so much for all the replies so far!!

[strat+ac30]

(1) Definitely automate. Better than super-squashing it.
(2) If sibilance is an issue, manually automate esses down in volume...say 8dB to start, adjust to taste
(3) Set up 4-5 aux busses with a plate verb, a room verb, a couple delays, and some sort of interesting distortion. Use subtle combinations of each at different parts in the song to make the vocal come forward, fade back into the mix, stand out, blend in, etc. Automate all five if you aren't liking a static mix.
(4) Try adding a very subtle stereo tuning effect (+4cents on L side, -4cents on R side) to keep a mostly mono vocal but with some amount of width.

Try those out...I've had decent success with them. Of course, there's always the caveat that any of the above might suck for your particular genre/song/mix.

Dave

[peat]

Originally Posted by rwhitney

Does anyone besides Bob Clearmountain actually do this?

if the vocal is the main part (pop/rock song)
then yes
i do it everytime

i get the vocals just right
all the backing vocals right as well

then i get the drums sounding good together, then bring the whole drum buss up to match the vocals
then i do this with every instrument

if i do it the other way around, adding vocals last
i usually always have to change alot of things in all the other components of the mix

[Energie]

How is your monitoring system?


Disclaimer, I am no mix master. ok, now thats out of the way............


I have never really felt comfortable personally with the mix vocals first and then everything else, at least with my work flow. I like to get my individual stuff, usually starting with the drums if they are a real kit, sounding pretty good, then I start to bring in the other elements and get a pretty good rough mix and efx, if any, at least kinda lined up. Then as someone else said, its a good idea to at least get the vocals playing a bit not too late in the process, I usually add them in slightly lower then normal I guess, and see how everything is doing thus far. Edit the vocal tracks, then start to tweak the mix more. If there are conflicting stuff muddying up, try to fix that, and pan stuff should I need to make room for other instruments to sit, specialy the vocals. Since vocals usually can cut through well on their own, I usually don't have to fight with them much, but clearing the way for them both in the stereo feild and frequency wise will help them sit better. I am not afraid of using tons of efx, and lately I have been liking less efx and reverb on vocals. But perhaps experiementing with the right efx , reverb or delay or what not, to help bring them in their own space. And some styles call for lots o verb :-)

I do lots of volume automation to make sure they are even, and some compression as well itb. I don't usualy need to add eq, unless the mic was particuliary dark, but sometimes a little here and there, as someone said 5k, and top air sounds nice if its a decent eq itb.

of course making sure they were tracked well is a given... And if the singer has a good voice too. Mixing vocals a bit upfront isn't a bad thing either, as long as its not blaring everything else out ya know.

[Absolute]

Originally Posted by tofu maniac

I've been getting my mixes to sound really where i want them to be, but then when it come time to mix vocals i can't seem to get them to sit right. !!

Yeah, just post up the mix. Its the only way to know to whats going on. There is little paperclip icon right in the reply tool menu where it will let you upload the file right here on GS.

[Absolute]

Originally Posted by seriousfun

This advice sucks.

You funny Son of a bitch. I just laughed my ass off. At first I thought..oh this guys just being a prick--then I saw those other guys said the same thing you did.

[travisbrown]

When I mix vocals in (and it's the mix-thing I struggle with most), I mix at almost whisper levels. Just some advice I got from a few mix engineers much better than me. Helped me a lot.

[u b k]

not for nothing, but i believe this is the biggest challenge for most mixers, so don't get too down on yourself. i think the best part about all the advice you've gotten thus far is that it encourages you to experiment. never stop experimenting.

fwiw, i drop vocals in last, i've tried it every other way under the sun but always came back in the end. i just can't place a vocal if the music around it doesn't move and flow like a coherent song in its own right. once i've got it all mixed like an instrumental, i drop in the vocal. at that point the only thing i generally need is to adjust the outputs on my comps (i mix with multi-buss compression), so in effect i shift entire families of sound until the energy of the piece is coherent with the new element, the voice.

having speakers that are brutal in the mid-focus is extremely helpful; ns10's, auratones, the little speaker in a studer. scooped beasts like events and mackies are tough, imo. the advice to balance things at whisper volumes is excellent. when i can barely hear the music, it's blindingly obvious what pokes out, what's buried, and how things come and go. these days i do almost all my mixing at sub-conversational levels, and i mix faster than ever with better results (imho).

it'd be great if you heeded the earlier requests and posted a mix that's troubling you. for all you know, your objectivity is so shot you have a great mix and just can't hear it. then again, maybe the vocal has too much 300hz and too slow of a release on the comp. we could be a lot more specific if you gave us something to hear.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[blackcom]

Lots of automation and Noveltech Vocal Enhancer helped me alot

[vernier]

Its impossible that you can be having this problem. If you bring up the vocal only, you'll hear it just fine. Now you no longer have a vocal problem. It's gone. Now the problem is, you can't hear the instruments. So, now the problem has turned from bad to less bad, because a vocal is the most important track, by far. So now you need to decide which instruments will compliment the vocal. Those that don't compliment it ..just erase them. Now your problem went from bad, to less bad, to still less-bad again.

[Sqye]

.

does anyone actually really "MIX" anymore?

it just sounds so weird to hear phrases like, "bring the vocals up".

or, don't bring them in too late....etc.

i haven't heard those phrases in years.

.

[3rd world order]

first off, HUGE can of worms offering advice on a mix when no one can hear it.. but since everyone else is doing it, what the hell?

what i GENERALLY try to do is murder everything above 5k on most instruments.. unless there's a specific reason it needs to be up there... like snare drum.. cymbals.. occasionally a synth part... now instead of having the vocals fight everything for clarity there's a "pocket" for them to sit in...

a quickie way to do this is to buss your whole mix (minus vocals) thru a stereo pultec and roll off everything above 5k till the vocals are happy... now you're not gonna get away with this approach and easily print off a final mix because you've just killed the clarity on most of your instruments.. so you'll prolly have to put in some 10-12k on a track by track basis.. but you'll start to see what i mean... i dont mean for this to be Standard Operating Procedure when mixing.. i mean this to be an exercise to understand how freqs above 5k on instruments are masking your vocal... the instruments are supposed to sound like crap now.. its for demonstration purposes only.

so, armed with this knowledge... go forth and multiply

the real revelation on this technique came from Slipperman talking about using the LP filters on a neve eq (no big revelation there) and boosting ABOVE the filter..

what?!

which for some reason never occurred to me..

but once i started playing around with it the great light turned on...

the other revelation is mixing on one auratone speaker at low volume... if your sounds are still interesting and NOT fighting each other for space in this (admittedly limited.. yes, that's precisely why its important) arena.. you've pretty much won the battle. the auratone forces you to think front to back and concentrate solely on the midrange balances... 200Hz-7k.

still another revelation came with using the free roger nichols inspector plug-in in ableton live with the 48dB/oct 3 band DJ EQ plug and really listening to instrument sounds while killing off everything above 5k or below 250Hz.. by toggling the hi/lo EQ bands in/out a couple dozen times and leaving the mids playing i figured out that really nothing much lives above or below these frequencies in DENSE mixes... and the way to make all these sounds coexist peacefully together is to get in there with the filters..

mixing is essentially SCULPTURE, taking away frequencies you dont need so the sounds fit together in a pleasant way... a lot of sounds in dense mixes are smoke and mirrors... i.e a bass part (split into 2 tracks) with a 400 and below component and a high-passed harmonic content component up around 2.5k for note definition.. this trick is used a LOT..

now if you're mixing a straight ahead 3 piece jazz ensemble then these techniques are gonna be a bit heavy handed, OBVIOUSLY.. so don't start crying about purity or any of that nonsense.

some other random thoughts on vocals: use delays not reverb... if you absolutely have to use reverb then put the reverb on the delays and NOT the dry vocal... this will help you out immeasurably in the clarity department..

back off the attack on your vocal compressor so it has some grab...

what mic/pre was used to record the vocal? there's a huge difference between using a mackie pre with an sm57 and using a neve pre with a 57.. one will get lost in a mix and one will be usable.

also, maybe there are some holes in the vocal.. pop up your spectrum and see what's going on.. sometimes seemingly strange boosts (800Hz or so) can make a huge difference in putting the vocal up front...

is proximity effect messing with your compression? sometimes backing the singer off the mic about 6-12" can really smooth things out and not make the compression work so hard... inverse squares law, ppl...

is a bullshit pop screen killing your clarity? it happens...

is the pre letting in too many subsonics and messing with the compression? (dw fearn preamps are especially bad with this tendency but it's easy to fix) drop in a high pass filter before the compression.

these are things that have helped me anyhow...