PLEASE HELP ME EQ MY ROCK BASS - (sample included)

[Rockman]

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Note: The audio clip sample has now been removed. Thanks to all of you who helped with your input on this thread.





Hi everyone,

About a week ago, I had posted some clips of my mixes, asking for your critique, and a few of you were kind enough to help me. Thank you.

A couple of you commented about the bass in my mixes... saying that it didn't sound full or round, or powerful enough, and that I had possibly taken out too much of the "mud" frequencies. So I'm asking for your help again.

First off, let me tell you exactly how I recorded and processed my bass:

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The bass is a Musicman Stingray (5-string). My recording chain is as follows:

Bass > Sansamp Bass Driver D.I. > Brent Averill 1084 > Distressor > Apogee Rosetta 800 > Pro Tools 24 bit (44.1)

I kept the EQ in the 1084 flat.

Once the bass was recorded, I duplicated (copied) the bass track to another. I processed both tracks differently, with Waves Ren EQ (and a little Waves Ren compression).



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As I mentioned above, after the Waves Ren EQ, I also used some additional Waves Ren Compression on both tracks (but I'm not going to bother mentioning the settings on this post).

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If you think the bass is lacking in power and general low end, can you point me in the right direction with my processing? I have the feeling that I took it a little too far with the drastic dip in the 270Hz area... but let's see what you guys have to say.

Thanks !

[vernier]

Needs a different bass and player, and recorded more straight forward like James Jamerson -with more dymamics, not strummed with a pick.

[Unclenny]

Crank it up.

Or maybe bring the mix down around it.

[SkunkWorks]

Don't agree that it needs a different bass. Musicman Stingray is one of the most recorded basses out there and should be able to pull off just about any genre depending how you dial it... Dream Theatre uses 'em, so do alot of country artists... and everything in between. If however you decide you want to sell it please email me, I'm looking for a 5 string one (wink).

By the way, will send you a pm later this weekend about your vocal chain... I have an interest in some things you did.

[vernier]

Listen to Buffalo Springfield's "On the Way Home" ..that'll help.

[Rockman]

Originally Posted by SkunkWorks

Don't agree that it needs a different bass. Musicman Stingray is one of the most recorded basses out there and should be able to pull off just about any genre depending how you dial it... Dream Theatre uses 'em, so do alot of country artists... and everything in between. If however you decide you want to sell it please email me, I'm looking for a 5 string one (wink).

By the way, will send you a pm later this weekend about your vocal chain... I have an interest in some things you did.

Yea, I thought the Stingray was a decent bass .. plus it's the only bass I have, so I'm limited. Sorry mate, but I can't sell it at this time.

Anyone else? Any thoughts about the EQ?

[Rockman]

Originally Posted by moracspace

The stingray IMO is the best bass to record with.The dynamic range is off the charts.I love it when ever one walks in the studio I know im gonna get a great bass sound old or new strings.

Nice to know you feel that way.

So... how about it guys? Anyone out there have any feedback about my little dilemma? Thanks for your help.

[Kiwiburger]

The settings on the Sansamp are important - I tend to set the bass and treble around 12 o'clock, and even then it chops out a lot of midrange, unless you use the blend control.

With an active bass, i'm not sure I would use the Sansamp ... it's bit noisy and has limited headroom. Worth trying straight into the preamp instrument input, or maybe with a nice passive DI like a Radial JDI.

[Rockman]

Originally Posted by Kiwiburger

The settings on the Sansamp are important - I tend to set the bass and treble around 12 o'clock, and even then it chops out a lot of midrange, unless you use the blend control.

With an active bass, i'm not sure I would use the Sansamp ... it's bit noisy and has limited headroom. Worth trying straight into the preamp instrument input, or maybe with a nice passive DI like a Radial JDI.

Thanks for the tip Kiwi. Actually, on the Sansamp, I always leave all knobs at 12 o'clock (except the volume / level, which is full up). I never noticed the headroom issue though... hmm..

[SkunkWorks]

I've been trying to mimick some basses on albums I like... a really warm low mid/upper bass punch that cuts right through a mix even in headphones... seems to me every time I pulled it off it actually had a fair amount of the frequencies you said you pulled out. What I did pull out to achieve it is everything around and including 1khz... those are the frequencies I personally can't stand in a bass guitar... listening on the fly while playing with those (pulling them out) instantly made my bass sound "album like."

Disclaimer:
I'm not a professional engineer and have no formal training... but I'm really picky, I know what I like, and sometimes if I'm lucky I stumble on how to get it

[wm_b]

In the full mix I don't really hear the fundamental tone very much. I wonder if have 800hz boosted by nearly 11db between the two tracks and a notch around 270 could be a place to start. 800 is around the 15th fret of the high E on a guitar. Cranking that is going to bury the fundamental with overtones.

I would try a more conservative bump in the upper mids and a little less cut in the low mids.

I also like to track with a little compression on the way in, a LA3A would be my choice for a tune like this. A finger rather than a pick will also bring out the fullness.

I know that's not very specific advice but those are some things I would look into.

[MarkRB]

Doesn't sound too bad to me.

The main things it is missing for me is proper Lo-End to pin it down. Maybe back off the loend EQ you are doing and compress the sound a fair bit more.

I love stingrays but wasn't getting the gritty bite that I associate with them. I'd try and get a bit more twang out it (around 2-4kHz). That may also help get rid of some of the nasal quality.

[Anselmo]

Song sounds nice...!! what mic did you use on the vocals?

[Rockman]

Originally Posted by SkunkWorks

I've been trying to mimick some basses on albums I like... a really warm low mid/upper bass punch that cuts right through a mix even in headphones... seems to me every time I pulled it off it actually had a fair amount of the frequencies you said you pulled out. What I did pull out to achieve it is everything around and including 1khz... those are the frequencies I personally can't stand in a bass guitar... listening on the fly while playing with those (pulling them out) instantly made my bass sound "album like."

Disclaimer:
I'm not a professional engineer and have no formal training... but I'm really picky, I know what I like, and sometimes if I'm lucky I stumble on how to get it

Thanks for your input Skunk. I'll definitely consider that. I'm not sure how much 1 Khz I have in my bass at this stage... I had never focused on that frequency. I did boost some 800 though...

Originally Posted by wm_b

In the full mix I don't really hear the fundamental tone very much. I wonder if have 800hz boosted by nearly 11db between the two tracks and a notch around 270 could be a place to start. 800 is around the 15th fret of the high E on a guitar. Cranking that is going to bury the fundamental with overtones.

I would try a more conservative bump in the upper mids and a little less cut in the low mids.

I also like to track with a little compression on the way in, a LA3A would be my choice for a tune like this. A finger rather than a pick will also bring out the fullness.

I know that's not very specific advice but those are some things I would look into.

Wm_b, that's good advice. I had a feeling I had overdone it a little with my boosts and cuts. And I agree about the finger playing rather than a pick. I just seem to play more precisely with a pick. But thanks for your input.

Originally Posted by MarkRB

Doesn't sound too bad to me.

The main things it is missing for me is proper Lo-End to pin it down. Maybe back off the loend EQ you are doing and compress the sound a fair bit more.

I love stingrays but wasn't getting the gritty bite that I associate with them. I'd try and get a bit more twang out it (around 2-4kHz). That may also help get rid of some of the nasal quality.

Mark, thanks to you also. I'm also missing that low end you mentioned. But I guess I'm always afraid to crank it up too much and have my mixes sound too bassy. But I'll work on it a little.

Originally Posted by Einar

Song sounds nice...!! what mic did you use on the vocals?

Thanks Einar. I used a Neumann M149.

Thanks everyone... Please keep the feedback coming.

[Absolute]

Originally Posted by Rockman

Hi everyone,


A couple of you commented about the bass in my mixes... saying that it didn't sound full or round, or powerful enough, and that I had possibly taken out too much of the "mud" frequencies. So I'm asking for your help again.

Obviously you need to automate it better during the loud guitar parts because it sounds like you didnt. Thats far from replacing the player...whoever said that

[SK1]

Rockman .... it's good but you'd like it to be better. I can respect that.

Try setting up the bass with the heaviest gauge of strings you can get. I just put 50/70/90/110 on my jazz bass and it's sweet.

Also, if he must use a pick have him pick in the sweetest spot for the tone you guys are going for, get him away from the bridge a little more. The pick (yuck) gauge makes a difference too.

[razorz]

Bring the bottom end eq up a bit, sounds a bit flat.

Have the guy re-record the part, it does sound like he is playing with a pick and to me, that sound is unflattering for a bass.

Personal opinion though.

Try cutting some in the 800-1000 region to taste, might kill a bit of the pluck sound.

[razorz]

As a side note, the vocals sound a bit flat as well.

I listened to the "Full Mix" and it actually does sound good, but not polished.

If I were an average listener I probably would care that much, but since you posted it up for opinions I do hear some flaws. The bass almost sounds like it's not lined up correctly in the mix by a very small time difference.

[Rockman]

Originally Posted by Absolute

Obviously you need to automate it better during the loud guitar parts because it sounds like you didnt. Thats far from replacing the player...whoever said that

You're probably right Absolute. Maybe it is just a question of riding the level. But I wanted to explore the possibility that my EQ was off... but thanks for your input.

Originally Posted by SK1

Rockman .... it's good but you'd like it to be better. I can respect that.

Try setting up the bass with the heaviest gauge of strings you can get. I just put 50/70/90/110 on my jazz bass and it's sweet.

Also, if he must use a pick have him pick in the sweetest spot for the tone you guys are going for, get him away from the bridge a little more. The pick (yuck) gauge makes a difference too.

SK1.. umm, actually, I'm the one who played the bass. I'm not even sure what gauge strings I have on there. But I agree with you about finding the sweet spot, and I appreciate the tip.

Originally Posted by razorz

Bring the bottom end eq up a bit, sounds a bit flat.

Have the guy re-record the part, it does sound like he is playing with a pick and to me, that sound is unflattering for a bass.

Personal opinion though.

Try cutting some in the 800-1000 region to taste, might kill a bit of the pluck sound.

Originally Posted by razorz

As a side note, the vocals sound a bit flat as well.

I listened to the "Full Mix" and it actually does sound good, but not polished.

If I were an average listener I probably would care that much, but since you posted it up for opinions I do hear some flaws. The bass almost sounds like it's not lined up correctly in the mix by a very small time difference.

Razorz... thanks to you also for your thoughts. I'll definitely look into your suggestions as well. I actually boosted quite a bit at 800Hz... thinking that it would help the bass be heard on small speakers (computer, ipods, etc). That was my intent...

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Thanks everyone.

[razorz]

Originally Posted by Rockman

Razorz... thanks to you also for your thoughts. I'll definitely look into your suggestions as well. I actually boosted quite a bit at 800Hz... thinking that it would help the bass be heard on small speakers (computer, ipods, etc). That was my intent...

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Thanks everyone.

I was listening through Genelec 8040A's so, not huge but definitely bass'y for their size.

When you recorded the bass, perhaps I missed this initially.. I have ADD perhaps?

Did you record from a mic'd cabinet or did you use an Amp sim?

[Rockman]

Originally Posted by razorz

I was listening through Genelec 8040A's so, not huge but definitely bass'y for their size.

When you recorded the bass, perhaps I missed this initially.. I have ADD perhaps?

Did you record from a mic'd cabinet or did you use an Amp sim?

No worries mate. Actually, I described my exact signal chain in the original post of this thread. No amp. Just a Sansamp Bass Driver D.I.

[Mad-Max]

I'm not listening with suitables monitors right now, but looking at the Main Bass eq pic I would definitely remove the 45hz Hi Pass... If I think that it's there where U got the more LOW End of the bass...

Then I would try to make a more natural and gentle "hole" at 269Hz, just a larger Q and not so deep as U made...

Why U shelved so much in the Highs?
Anyway, mines are only Blind suggestions, I got to listen looking at the spectrum...
Any way nice tune!

[thethrillfactor]

Listening to the full mix i might to your bass:

1) Not pan it in the center. Maybe a slight off center to seperate it.

2) Use some kind of chorusing to stereo-rize it and make it wider sounding. It will also round it out more which i feel is better for your track than a distorted type of bass.

3) Make a parallel buss with just kick and bass, mix it in with everything and peak it somewhere so it pops through more.

[Rockman]

Originally Posted by Mad-Max

I'm not listening with suitables monitors right now, but looking at the Main Bass eq pic I would definitely remove the 45hz Hi Pass... If I think that it's there where U got the more LOW End of the bass...

Then I would try to make a more natural and gentle "hole" at 269Hz, just a larger Q and not so deep as U made...

Why U shelved so much in the Highs?
Anyway, mines are only Blind suggestions, I got to listen looking at the spectrum...
Any way nice tune!

Thanks Mad-Max. Your tips make sense. Maybe I could try setting the HPF at 30Hz instead? Or no filter at all? I had just gotten used to filtering the extreme lows, but 45 might be high (even with a gentle slope).

I had shelved the highs in an attempt to not get in the way of the elec guitars. But maybe I went wrong there as well ? I've never been sure what to do with those frequencies in the bass (around 2-5 KHz). Thanks for your tips.

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Listening to the full mix i might to your bass:

1) Not pan it in the center. Maybe a slight off center to seperate it.

2) Use some kind of chorusing to stereo-rize it and make it wider sounding. It will also round it out more which i feel is better for your track than a distorted type of bass.

3) Make a parallel buss with just kick and bass, mix it in with everything and peak it somewhere so it pops through more.

Interesting ideas thrill. I had previously thought of stereo-izing the bass a little, if nothing else, to separate it from the kick a little... but I never tried it. In any case, I'll definitely consider your other tips as well.

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Incidentally, even though this is only one song, I tend to use this procedure for my bass on most of my songs. Of course, depending on the song, I might alter the blend a little, or compression settings... but EQ-wise, it's pretty similar to what I did here. That's really the reason why I wanted to learn a little more, with regard to getting a fuller, rounder bass sound (without sounding too boomy, etc)... because that will be the "overall" sound of the entire record.

If I could sum it up in one short sentence... I wanted to know whether you guys thought there was a hole in the freq spectrum, in the low mids... (causing a lack in body and power) Or whether you thought it sounded fine. Hope that makes sense.


Thanks guys.

[Mad-Max]

Listen RockMan...this is a simple adjustment I made on the full mix file U posted... obviously it's made in a very easy and simple way cos I have not the raw tracks... but I think that it has a more round and warm sound, or at least a kind of I would prefer...IMHO...
Have a listen and maybe an A\B comparison!

here's the download link

Lobortis > #5684070385 : gearslutz-08.mp3

let me know what U think!

[MarkRB]

Don't HPF the bass, especially the DI unless you really need to.

You won't get cleaner more useable bottom end than from a DI. You may have to pull a few troublesome freqs from the distorted track and amp track but you are limiting yourself getting rid of all that 'fundamental' stuf.

Try using tighter Q's on your EQ.

[SkunkWorks]

Rockman, just sent you another pm. Seriously, try taking out lots of 1khz and a bit to either side of it... (and leave the upper bass/lower mid in it). That (1k) really is the frequency that makes just about any bass sound gross... pingy and ringy like it's in a garbage can or bathroom... almost like there's an ambience on it. Try it brother. I know what sound you're going for and that's more or less how I get it.

EDIT
You almost want it to sound like you've boosted 200-300hz... so it really cuts in the warm punch zone even in headphones. The way I described gets this subtractively rather than having to boost anything. Adjust sub and highs to taste

[Rockman]

Originally Posted by Mad-Max

Listen RockMan...this is a simple adjustment I made on the full mix file U posted... obviously it's made in a very easy and simple way cos I have not the raw tracks... but I think that it has a more round and warm sound, or at least a kind of I would prefer...IMHO...
Have a listen and maybe an A\B comparison!

here's the download link

Lobortis > #5684070385 : gearslutz-08.mp3

let me know what U think!

Wow man! Sounds better to me. What did you do?

[Rockman]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

Don't HPF the bass, especially the DI unless you really need to.

You won't get cleaner more useable bottom end than from a DI. You may have to pull a few troublesome freqs from the distorted track and amp track but you are limiting yourself getting rid of all that 'fundamental' stuf.

Try using tighter Q's on your EQ.

Thanks Mark. I hear you about the D.I. I appreciate the input.

Originally Posted by SkunkWorks

Rockman, just sent you another pm. Seriously, try taking out lots of 1khz and a bit to either side of it... (and leave the upper bass/lower mid in it). That (1k) really is the frequency that makes just about any bass sound gross... pingy and ringy like it's in a garbage can or bathroom... almost like there's an ambience on it. Try it brother. I know what sound you're going for and that's more or less how I get it.

EDIT
You almost want it to sound like you've boosted 200-300hz... so it really cuts in the warm punch zone even in headphones. The way I described gets this subtractively rather than having to boost anything. Adjust sub and highs to taste

Hey Glenn. Thanks again for the tips. I'll check out your PM as well. Much obliged.

[trustyjim]

I'm not listening on my studio speakers, and I'm probably not as experienced as most people on here, so consider my advice with a grain of salt.

I actually think the bass sounds overcompressed. I would lighten up on the amount of compression you are doing through your Waves Rennaisance compressor. Then I would try using Waves MaxxBass (if you have it) to synthesize a bit more low-end in there. It may not work out the way I am envisioning it in my head, but it may be worth a try. To my ears the bass is light in the real low frequencies (200hz down).

I liked thrills suggestions to put a Chorus on the bass (that might work well here) and also to do a parallel submix to compress it together with the kick drum. Both good ideas that have worked for me before.