DANGER TWO BUS NOT IMPRESSED

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by not_so_new
The Folcrom makes sense to me because you can choose your colors on the summing side, with the D2B you are stuck with it's "sound."

The D2B doesn't really possess a "sound" in terms of color... the idea is that it's as transparent as technology allows. Listen for width and depth in the stereo spectrum. There will be a difference in every case with the D2B. Now whether or not you feel the difference is worth it is your personal taste, but you can't say there isn't a difference. With the Folcrom, you have the option of adding a colored or transparent piece on the end, allowing for more options and variation depending on the preamps available.

[cdog]

Originally posted by jpaudio
If it didn't impress you, you weren't listening for the right things in the first place, or you don't appreciate what it's actually doing. Nothing wrong with either, but let's not fault the product.

Because obviously this product is perfect and you are a copper-eared twit, and we all golden eared genius sheep.




Thats bullshit. There is no piece of gear that is perfect for everyone. Whether a piece of gear is right for someone or not is "subjective". Whether it sounds good or not is "subjective".

The D2B has not been anointed by God.

People are not copper eared twits just because they don't like the sound of "popular gear X".

So this guy doesn't like the D2B... who cares???

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by cdog
Because obviously this product is perfect and you are a copper-eared twit, and we all golden eared genius sheep.

Thats bullshit. There is no piece of gear that is perfect for everyone. Whether a piece of gear is right for someone or not is "subjective". Whether it sounds good or not is "subjective".

The D2B has not been anointed by God.

People are not copper eared twits just because they don't like the sound of "popular gear X".

So this guy doesn't like the D2B... who cares???

Cdog,

I never said the D2B was perfect. What i said was that the point of the product may have been missed by the tester, and it appears that is the case indeed. It's not a "magic bullet fer yer mix", and if that's what this guy was expecting, he's set for dissapointment. I tried a D2B, had one here for a month or so, but couldn't justify the price/performance ratio for my specific needs. I agree with you that taste and application are user subjective, but this guy clearly missed the point of the product based on his posts.

Your last statement is very ignorant... who cares??? Isn't that what these forums are for? Misconceptions are cleared up on a daily basis around here, and if noone cared, the AE community would suffer as a whole.

[Aslihad]

The D2B is the greatest summing device ever.

Now you have two opposing anonymous and unverifiable opinions.

I have heard tale of a memo from Digidesign to all of her teachers...the message...do not recommend the D2B, no matter how you feel about the product. The penalty...dismissal. I wonder if this memo exists...

Digidesign also plants posters around the internet to serruptitiously promote their product. This bozo is a plant.

Aslihad

[not_so_new]

The D2B doesn't really possess a "sound" in terms of color... the idea is that it's as transparent as technology allows. Listen for width and depth in the stereo spectrum. There will be a difference in every case with the D2B. Now whether or not you feel the difference is worth it is your personal taste, but you can't say there isn't a difference. With the Folcrom, you have the option of adding a colored or transparent piece on the end, allowing for more options and variation depending on the preamps available.

JP I am with yeah, that is my point actualy. Both units are built to not have a sound really but even then you are getting a "sound" of sorts right?? I mean if you are getting a transparent passing of audio you are getting a "sound" in a way, dig?? I am not making my point but you get the idea.

Anyway we are on the same page my point is if both units do not impart a coloration to the sound on their own why not get a Folcrom so I can use my 473's or (soon to be) TG2's or maybe an Earthworks 1022 or whatever to get the tone I want. With the D2B I get one "sound" colored or not but with the Folcrom I get any tone I wish for after the unit.

??

Seems like a no brainer if you already have the pre's... Just wondering ahy Fletcher does not like the Folcrom as much as the D2B??

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by not_so_new
JP I am with yeah, that is my point actualy. Both units are built to not have a sound really but even then you are getting a "sound" of sorts right?? I mean if you are getting a transparent passing of audio you are getting a "sound" in a way, dig?? I am not making my point but you get the idea.

Gotcha, i follow

[ToddS]

I have used the D2B in a session, and I liked it. What was interesting is that we did two sets of mixes, one outside the box with the D2B and one inside the box with Pro Tools HD. I felt outside the box was a bit more musical and the dynamics in the material seemed to come through a bit better. What was interesting was that the other engineer felt the opposite. He preferred the PT internal mixer to the D2B.

I spoke to a film engineer friend of mine in LA who did a similar test using a Euphonix console. He preferred the PT mixer to the Euphonix, but others preferred going through the board.

[Bobo]

Actually if u mix in Protools, its very easy to compare both mix. Since u can very easy to assign multiple output of each track. u can assign all tracks to bus 63-64 and then bounce it. then import the mix using d2bus and ITB version. As I said I prefer d2bus a lot more...

[RKrizman]

I don't see what the fuss is all about. Anytime you go out of 16 D/A's you're going to be adding in the individual analog errors from each, as well as that from the input channels on even the cleanest analog inputs. Some summing mixers will be as clean as possible, adding just the slightest amount of euphonic distortion that can indeed make your mix seem wider or deeper or whatever. Other boxes, like the Folcrum, are designed to allow you to add more obvious coloration. It's like choosing compressors or preamps. Super clean preamps, like digital summing, are often avoided because they are too clean and lifeless.

This ain't the stuff of religion. Use what you like, but don't make the mistake of thinking that one way or the other has some sort of moral superiority, or is right for everyone.

The funny thing is none of these systems are "summng" at all. In a DAW, most of the heavy lifting that could conceivably be adding errors is multiplication, not addition. In an analog system, there's no math going on at all. Signals are being blended, not summed.

-R

[Sir Dingo]

Originally posted by Jules
OK opinions have been expressed - points made.

Time to put this thread to bed.

Jules
Gearslutz.com admin

Why hasn't this been moved to the "moan zone"?

If this was a thread titled "Pro Tools - not impressed" it would've been moved to the moan zone within minutes...

[ulysses]

Originally posted by not_so_new
Seems like a no brainer if you already have the pre's... Just wondering why Fletcher does not like the Folcrom as much as the D2B??

Have you ever heard or read Fletcher say that? I haven't. He has said many times that he doesn't sell gear he doesn't like. If you visit Mercenary dot com, you'll find the opportunity to buy a Folcrom from him. Beyond that, I can't put any words in his mouth but if you want to know what he thinks, you should call him up and ask him.

[not_so_new]

Hey man back off a bit, really it's all cool...


If you read through this thread you will see arimaka said "I haven't tried the 2-buss but I am thinking very strongly about getting one, It was highly recommended by Fletcher over folcrom and other summing boxes." My question was directed at Fletcher to get to the bottom of it from the horses mouth as it were.

I am personally planning on getting a Folcrom soon regardless of the answer from Fletcher because I love the idea of getting double duty out of my mic pre's. The only reason why I posted the question in the first place was because I didn't see the Folcrom on the Mercenary site and I KNOW that Fletcher will only carry gear he approves of. BTW the folcrom is not listed in the dropdowns on the Merc site, I had to do a search for it to see that he was carrying it. Before you posted I thought Mercenary was not selling them..

I am not going to bother the guy and ask questions about something that I don't have money for right now so I posted the question here instead. He never responded so I dropped it, not a big deal.

Again I am not slagging the box or speaking for Fletcher, I am just looking for clarification and I did say...

Seems like a no brainer if you already have the pre's

[chap]

I bought my Dangerous gear from the guys at Dangerous. I love it. Oh, one other thing,
they do not have a Digi 192 at Dangerous
so the story strikes me as pretty strange.
believe what you will but I don't think this guy was ever there.
chap

[Duardo]

BTW the folcrom is not listed in the dropdowns on the Merc site, I had to do a search for it to see that he was carrying it.

It is listed there, under "Roll Music Systems"...

-Duardo

[not_so_new]

It is listed there, under "Roll Music Systems"...

Ahh... now I see it, thanks.

It is not on the DAW Helpers page with the D2B, that was were I was looking. No big deal, nice to see Fletcher is carrying it.

Sounds like Mike Shipley is using it as well, vote of confidence there huh??

Thanks again....

[chap]

I checked into this situation and as suspected, it is a harmful fraud. Anyone who actually listened to a D2B (love it or hate it) would not compare it to a BBE any more than someone would say 'Yeah, I heard that SSL board and it sounded like an Eventide Harmonizer'.
This is a thread started on a lie. End it.
chap

[arimaka]

Originally posted by not_so_new
Hey man back off a bit, really it's all cool...


If you read through this thread you will see arimaka said "I haven't tried the 2-buss but I am thinking very strongly about getting one, It was highly recommended by Fletcher over folcrom and other summing boxes." My question was directed at Fletcher to get to the bottom of it from the horses mouth as it were.

I am personally planning on getting a Folcrom soon regardless of the answer from Fletcher because I love the idea of getting double duty out of my mic pre's. The only reason why I posted the question in the first place was because I didn't see the Folcrom on the Mercenary site and I KNOW that Fletcher will only carry gear he approves of. BTW the folcrom is not listed in the dropdowns on the Merc site, I had to do a search for it to see that he was carrying it. Before you posted I thought Mercenary was not selling them..

I am not going to bother the guy and ask questions about something that I don't have money for right now so I posted the question here instead. He never responded so I dropped it, not a big deal.

Again I am not slagging the box or speaking for Fletcher, I am just looking for clarification and I did say...

Sorry I always jump in late...

I want to clarify what I said cause I ommitted an important part of Fletcher's comment to me.

He recomended the D2B over the Folcrom for me because I will have few high quality pre's in my studio. He then told me that for him the folcrom was great because he always had access to whatever pre he wants (almost, but close)... That's why to me personally he recommended the D2B and said he loved the unit...

Both work great and they can always be used together...

[fab]

Hello fellow Gearslutz,

Allow me to chime in.
I'm the guy that almighty Alvin decided to not name, I'm the guy who let him listen to my D2BUS rig. My name is Fab.
I don't post much but I read this forum a lot. I usually ignore this kind of silly banter, but there are a couple of incorrect statements in Alvin's prose that I'd like to address.


"Well i went ot (dangerous studio) not (the guitar center) and had a representative of (dangerous studio) setup a demo for me ."

Wrong.



-Alvin and a couple of his friends came to my personal studio, pureMix.net, which happens to be located in the same building as Dangerous Music. (Dangerous Music doesn't own an HD rig yet.) I thought I had been clear with him about that.

-I am not a Dangerous Music representative.
I own the rig, I paid for it, and I'm nice enough to let people come down and listen to it. (Under the same principle that makes Jules, Charles, and now Mike, nice enough to take time to enlighten us with their knowledge in this forum.) Plus I get to meet (mostly) cool people all the time.
Over time, the Dangerous crew liked the idea and asked for permission to refer people to me (Like Alvin for example). So now I have perks: I get to try the Dangerous gear before other people do. (Plus I'm good at breaking shit, that's what beta is for). And sometimes I go to trade shows (Like AES in Berlin or Tape Op in New Orleans last weekend) and tell people what the Dangerous gear does for me. They help pay for my flight, I get to see the show, I meet people and I help my upstairs friends at the same time. Peachy. One could say I endorse their stuff, like Charles endorses ProTools, only he's famous and mixes hits I'm not and I don't. Not yet :-)
They do not check on me, they never influenced me on what I use for demo material or procedure, they never show up during demos, none of that crap.
I do this because I think it's important to build a community of like-minded individuals around NYC, especially after the past couple of years. I do it because I would have loved to find someone willing to help me save many months of trial and error while putting my rig together by letting me hear the stuff in good conditions.
Lastly, I do not impose my opinion on anyone who comes down there. I only offer when asked.
The day Alvin came down, two other guys came, listened, and one of them went straight to Guitar Center to buy an LT, the other is reportedly planning to toss his O2R and re-arrange his studio around 2X D2BUS.
So there.

"They provided the material for me to listen too that they thought represented the best sound you could get out of there mix i heard ."

Nope.

I provided him with material that I though was the simplest and most even A/B I could set-up.
The A/B is set-up as follows: Mix a song in the box, then spread it to the D2BUS using the <control-select another output> trick.
I have to do it this way because the 2BUS has so much headroom that a specifically D2BUS oriented mix, brought down to ITB, invariably sounds like shit. It would probably help sell a lot of D2BUS if I used the D2BUS to ITB method, but it would not fare well for my integrity, plus I like my reputation as it is now.
The only viable A/B is heavily slanted towards ITB because the D2BUS strengths are under-utilized (Headroom, analog shine when pushed to limits, analog gear integration when mixing, serious cut down on time spent on gain management, etc, etc). 99% of the people who come down to my room to listen, or work in there, still select the D2BUS as their favorite after one pass. Alvin liked the ProTools/ITB because it was "brighter and more aggressive"
I said "Great, you're a lucky guy, you just saved yourself $2650, but I personally like the D2BUS better".
I then offered for Alvin to listen to a couple of other tracks in ProTools, and a couple of CD tracks that were specifically mixed through the D2BUS . He declined, saying "I heard what I had to hear".
I finally offered for him to come back with one of his tracks and to give him a couple hours with the system to check it out in action, but I haven't heard from him since.

"and if you ask me there was nothing wrong with 16 bits nobody complained back then and everyone is chasing the dragon now "
"that wasn't the problem so im going to skip this one, not saying that i am a authority on sound but can tell the differents of lossed low mids so i hope the people at dangerous don't get mad at me"

Say no more.

"one thing i notice right away was that the kick drum disappeared , lost all attack on kick ,
like i said alittle to much smoothing for me , reminded me of a BBE 862, "
"yes it is clean sounding but it took away some of the deffinition that was very noticeable"

Oh come on!
While the whole ITB versus D2BUS thing is ultimately a matter of taste, there are limits to what's permissible to me, and I'd like to label the above statements as disinformation, at best.
Anyone in the NYC area is welcome to come check out the same mix, in the same conditions. Mornings are best. Please be on time.
And since we're in the arbitrary statement zone, here's my personal take on the actual mix (My mix, so I'm biased):
By using the D2BUS, the bottom end blossomed noticeably in the lower octave and the annoying screechy stuff on the vocals, that stuck out while ITB, behaved in a much nicer manner through the D2BUS. The vocals sounded more like they did when solo-ed, whereas the ITB added a certain 3.8K grind that I personally abhor, and that I know for a fact shouldn't be there, because I tracked the darned thing myself.

"i did go there with the intention of buying as i waited along time to get my demo set up with them .
and i was going to custom order a few other things that they make , i wish it could of worked out,
im really sorry that it didn't work out ."
"I really went there with an open mind. I really wanted to buy there products but i wasn't impressed"

Well, I'm not sure that's true.
And this is the problem I have with this whole thing, and why I even bother to write this.
The first thing Alvin told me when he came down was (Grosso-modo) "I'm putting a studio together with this guy who really doesn't like the people @ Dangerous Music, let me hear the box anyway" See back story below.
This 'detail' might explain the six posts and the relentless slander. I don't know if that's what it is, but I find it utterly uncool either way.
Also Alvin came with a real negative attitude right off the bat, which kind of threw me off, because it's the first time it happened to me. My assistant commented on it after they left, unsolicited, which corroborated my first impression. It seemed that Alvin already knew what he was going to hear, before he entered the room. Go figure.

For those of you who have enough time to waste, here's the back story:
Alvin works with G, who produces S, a band that did very well selling their first album, which was incidentally recorded in what is pretty much now my studio.
G loves to work very, very, VERY loud, regardless of repeated complaints (Bad soundproofing), which pushed the boys at Dangerous, and everyone else in the building to ask him to leave, which put G in a very unpleasant position. I would be pissed myself. Also, when S and G wanted to come back to the spot to "recreate the vibe" for their second record, they were turned down, because no-one, including me, really wanted to go through the same routine again.
G is a cool guy, I actually like him a lot, he just likes to work REALLY loud, which doesn't make for good neighbor relations in a NYC building basement built circa 1912.
God, this feels lame, are we still in high school?

Anyway, to put it bluntly, I don't think that Dangerous would sell hundreds of their boxes, to people all over the world, if they sounded like a BBE862, and ate bass drums for lunch. I won't bore you with the long list of superstar mixers and mastering engineers who use the thing and inspired me to try it in the first place; instead I strongly encourage anyone who feels like analog summing might work for them to arrange to try it out with a D2BUS or whatever box caught your fancy. Try it out in your room, on your tracks, at your pace. Dangerous had a try-out policy when I bought my unit, it's probably still going on, it's definitely worth a call.
That way you can bypass the noise, literally, make an opinion for yourself, and go back to reading what Mike, Charles, Thrill and cohorts have to say about making good sounding records.
I find it very disheartening that so many people have to read such useless and misleading crap about a truly wonderful thing. I hope I helped bring another perspective to the table. So now can we lock this thread up and throw it out to sleep with the fishes?

Voila,

Respectfully yours,

Fab

[headz]

Hi Fab thanks for your words.

maybe I'm biased cause I own a D2B LT myself since 4 months. But nontheless I couldn't believe the whole thread after it went over 3 pages....
good to hear how this story started in reality.

Stll very happy I've decided to get a loan D2B for my studio first, tested it for my music (only electronic club music stuff) and initially decided 'yeah that is going to sound much more like my friends who mix analog. Before I wasn't really happy with my own ITB sound (logicpro6 summing is not that good I think,RME totalmix software 'missused' for summing was a little better but still it's 48bitfloating digital resolution was lacking my lusted details) and needed very long to get my wanted sound on every track.
with D2B the definition of kick and bass also the stereo width are what satisfy me most as this has showed was part I missed most from ITB, also ther's no colour introduced by D2B I can notify, so that 'colour' thing is still up to me, my programming/sounddesign skills and synths/samples....


cheers,
headz

[BevvyB]

ha ha

I loved the thing the moment i heard it

On the other hand if I spent my life monitoring at supersonic levels I'd be surprised if I could hear you beta test it by dropping it on the floor

In fact the difference was so night and day for the better I can't believe this thread got so long!

[chap]

I knew it. I smelled a rat and a rat came out.
Fab, Thanks a ton for giving us the other side of the story. I know the G and S story and I'm glad you printed it.
cheers,
Jim Chap (another beta tester)

[RKrizman]

Just to try to squeeze a little more useful information from this thread, is there any reason not to just go with the D2B LT instead of the big bruddah? Does the bigger one have more potential for analog crunch or something? Is there some sonic reward for pushing the levels on this thing or is it just clean, colorless summing? I have to admit that up to now I thought a lot of this was snake oil, but now I'm intrigued enough to try it.

-R

[RKrizman]

double post

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by RKrizman
Just to try to squeeze a little more useful information from this thread, is there any reason not to just go with the D2B LT instead of the big bruddah? Does the bigger one have more potential for analog crunch or something? Is there some sonic reward for pushing the levels on this thing or is it just clean, colorless summing? I have to admit that up to now I thought a lot of this was snake oil, but now I'm intrigued enough to try it.

-R

IIRC, and someone please correct me if i'm wrong, but the circuits in the D2B and D2B LE are the same. Difference is the output gain control, i/o, and some frontpanel functions. I don't think the LE has the +6 feature per input pair. Been a while since i've seen one though.

[fab]

Hey,

I personally couldn't hear any difference between the two D2BUS Senior and LT, when I beta tested the boxes.

Here are the differences, as far as I know:

-The senior has +6DB of gain available on every pair via front panel button, not the LT.

-The Senior has a stepped, ridiculously expensive, gain knob on the master, not the LT which sports a regular knob.

-The Senior has dedicated XLR connectors, the LT has D-Subs (Like the Digi 192).

-The Senior has a linear power supply, the LT has a switching power supply.

-The Senior is entirely hand made in NYC, the LT is surface mounted in Germany, then finalized in NYC.

-The sound is the same says Chris Muth, ZE designer, over and over again.

-The Senior makes a mean cup of Cappuccino, the LT can only brew Lattes.

The D2BUS is not a color piece in itself. It's designed to take anything you throw at it, and it's transparent to my ears.
When I need color, I strap a FATSO or a TubeTech accross the final mix before I go to the converters, that way I don't get the same color on every mix. Neat.

Ciao,

Fab

[Jesse Skeens]

Anyone here who uses the D2B and who has also heard the DAWSUM cd? I didn't notice anything other than some hi freq loss from the D2B on said cd.

Any ideas on why the positive effects of this unit didn't show up on this test?

Jesse