Recording with Amp Sims..

[Tunes 666]

Now I have heard some people talk about some pretty successful jobs using just amp sims... but in general allot of people think you cant beat the real thing...

I kind of agree but I was thinking ..

When people say, "you cant beat the real thing" ..that could be true i guess... But I feel only if you have the time and equipment...

I have been doing some songs with amp sims and it sounds cool... Ok I still would like to get that added warm texture that makes it sound a little more rounded, but at the same time I think unless I was to go into studio with some really good gear and a good room with of course a great sounding amp, then maybe I would not get a better sound than what I have even though it would be a real amp...

So I think the real thing is better yeah, but only when you actually do get a great guitar sound for the song you are doing... with amp sims you can also be much more flexible when it comes to mixing...

What do you guys think??

[smy1]

I am a big fan of recording direct to harddisc (with an ampsim inserted into the playback channel) and then later reamping through a proper amp (with cab or good cab impulses) at mixtime. Makes everything so much easier (especially when using the impulses) ... Depending on the project, you might get away with a good ampsim like Wagner Sharp, but stuff like Guitar Rig usually doesn't cut it for me ...

[Tunes 666]

when you say cab impulses... you mean like putting it through a normal amp head and then putting it through a channel with something like SIR on it with the Cab impulses?

[Empire Prod]

Originally Posted by The Super Dead

What do you guys think??

I think you got dropped on your head as a child.

[Tunes 666]

Originally Posted by Empire Prod

I think you got dropped on your head as a child.

actually I did get a nasty knock when 3, but I did not know anything about Amp Sims back then so I guess it still works

[5down1up]

Originally Posted by The Super Dead

What do you guys think??

Well, actually it has nothing to do with thinking
Both things are good for some tasks. Of course theres a lot more options clicking through a zillion of presets in f.ex guitar rig than setting all those gear up in the real world.
So having those tools to play around and work with is really nice.
Nevertheless a real amp and a real guitar are unbeatable imo. the dynamic response is difference, it has a lot more " high resolution " interaction, its moving air, it looks better, eats more power and makes the people who like it, HAPPY !

I heard killer tones with sampled drums and digital guitar processors, besides that, its not fun working this way for me.
I like it real compared to the photoshop action. And using mics in a recording is the most fun compared to seeking 12 days for some samples. Just a matter how you wanna waste your time. I like it quick & dirty !

So i hook up the redeye, feed 2 amps, record the d.i signal and put some ampfarm on, maybe a palmer d.i out in between the head & the cab, some mics on the speakers some mics in the room ...

and thats what i think, basically

[studiotte]

Getting good sounds from the amp is crucial, but it's nice to have guitar rig or some sort of amp simulator if your not 100% happy with the tones. I find it very helpful to mix in a Guitar rig track with the original track, adds some extra punch to the tracks.

[RCM - Ronan]

If we are talking about digital amp modelers, I think it will result in sub par guitar sounds that fight with the other elements in the mix and make all the the other instruments and vocals sound worse.

[sekim]

Originally Posted by smy1

I am a big fan of recording direct to harddisc (with an ampsim inserted into the playback channel) and then later reamping through a proper amp (with cab or good cab impulses) at mixtime. Makes everything so much easier (especially when using the impulses) ... Depending on the project, you might get away with a good ampsim like Wagner Sharp, but stuff like Guitar Rig usually doesn't cut it for me ...

ditto.

[Jaguar Dreams]

Well, if you only have some POS crate amp or something, then yeah, the amp sim might do better. But really, the thing that amp sims do not do well is translate the emotion of the playing. It's like the difference between a "good" pre on vocals and a "great" pre. The great ones will drive the emotion of the vocal straight into you in a way that a mid-line pre won't.

Amp modeling can work "ok" in situations where you are using it essentially as an extra eq to fill out a certain frequency range on a rhythm track, which is what some of the other posters have mentioned. The Ampeg SVX plugin, also, can work well for rounding out bass sounds in the mix. But for any lead piece that you want to stand out, forget about it.

The deceptive thing is, when you're sitting in your studio, and trying it out, you may be thinking, "well this sounds alright, yeah that sounds like a Fender Bassman would". But when you mix it, and send it out to people, the emotion of the music, which is supposed to grab and capture the listener will not happen in the same way.

There is a lot of marketing muscle behind amp simulators, but if you have a good amp, SM57s, Sennheiser 906s are not that expensive, and if you're up on the grill, the room isn't a huge factor.

I own a number of simulators, hardware and software. Aside from the Ampeg SVX, I don't use any of them aside from headphone mix during tracking.

-Jaguar

[Jack Ruston]

I often use amp sims at the tracking stage and then reamp to the real thing later. I do this because it allows the player to get going a bit faster and I dont need to worry about spending time isolating and micing amps on sounds that will often be guides and that I can reamp anyway.

I usually find that the reaction to the amp sim is 'wow that doesn't sound half bad' followed by the reaction to the reamp which is 'wow I can't believe I liked that amp sim sound'

J

[Tunes 666]

Thanks for the feed back guys..

My situation is I cant really make to much noise when in my home studio.... I can crank it up a bit but I don't like rushing it and feeling pushed ....

So Amp sims seem to be a good way out.... sometimes I get the sound I want no probs... but other times it just sounds to flat sounding.

I like the idea of using a pre amp with some Cab inpulses and am also thinking about getting an attachment for my EMU 1616m interface so i can use it on my lap top...book into a room somewhere and crank out some sounds....

it would be great if they did manage to get some amp sims which could totally do the job... would speed things up so much!

just for the record I understand that the first "Rooster" Record was all amp farm!

[Stiff]

I think people should stop being so concerned about if Amplitube, Guitar Rig or whatever sounds like the real deal or not, and instead focus on the sounds that can be produced by them. So what if it's not a perfect Marshall? Since when should electric guitars sound the same anyway? Electric pianos sounded nothing like the real deal but they turned out to be something else, something that people appreciate for what they are, and not for what they are not.

[Stiff]

Originally Posted by The Super Dead

it would be great if they did manage to get some amp sims which could totally do the job... would speed things up so much!

just for the record I understand that the first "Rooster" Record was all amp farm!

BTW, if you want conformation about amp modelers work in songs, then I'll let you know that several bands use them for final recordings. Pop productions for sure, metal bands as well... And they can be quite picky about guitar sounds.

In the end, if it sounds good, it is good, regardless if it has tubes or not.

[Ironklad Audio]

i've managed to get pretty good results with the original amplitube...you just have to spend a fair amount of time tweaking it if you're trying to get close to the sound of a real amp

i've found that it also helps to dirty up the signal on the way in with a tube preamp, OD pedal, or whatever else you might have in a regular guitar chain before it hits the amp

[feyshay]

It really is so easy working with a decent preamp, Shure SM57 on the grill. Adding some reverb if necessary. Adding a room mic if you want.
A couple of decent amps is a must for any guitar player.
I still find amp sims (my favorite is Guitar Rig 3) useful especially for clean sounds. I'll use pedals for distortion if needed. Some of the sims provide some good variation with which I am usually pleased with some tweaking.

[lowfreq33]

I find those useful for addinf some kind of differeny texture in the back of a mix, but I'd never use them on their own for distorted guitars. I just think there's something about the inherent non-linearities in good amps that the software fails to capture. For beefing up clean sounds they can be good, albeit with a lot of tweaking.

The one I've actually been impressed with is Ampeg SVX. Pretty convincing, and I've owned 3 of the 5 amps that thing models. The effects suck though.

[MickeySmid]

there is a new plug out: vintage amp room... quite good, with only 3 amps: marshall, vox and fender... I think it's the best one yet...

Still, the punch and dynamics are not there... a tone played soft sounds the same as a tone played a bit louder... so for a good guitarist (and perhaps you are not I know
I'm not, well sometimes I have a moment) it is a no no...

But I'm into old blues style playing that, needs an amp that grouwls in de lows and whails in the highs... an old small 15wat gibson at 10 does wonders...



m.

[Tunes 666]

Originally Posted by Stiff

I think people should stop being so concerned about if Amplitube, Guitar Rig or whatever sounds like the real deal or not, and instead focus on the sounds that can be produced by them. So what if it's not a perfect Marshall? Since when should electric guitars sound the same anyway? Electric pianos sounded nothing like the real deal but they turned out to be something else, something that people appreciate for what they are, and not for what they are not.

well said... I have kind of thought that my self... at the end of the day they are all tools and its about making some good sounds... dont have to be a rule book...

thanks again guys!

[Kiwiburger]

I find the latency (however small) of monitoring through a DAW is too disturbing. Especially on bass, but there is just some sort of emotional disconnect.

I much prefer to monitor through a real amp - even a battery pignose or those Fender or marshal plastic toy amps.

I think battery amps are very under-rated for tracking guitar parts. Because they don't need ac power or ground, they are immune from PSU and ground loop hum, and they don't radiate EMI for miles. They are low volume, for late night tracking sessions. And yet they can squeal with real feedback better than some full stacks.

I would love to make a real battery powered tube amp. It would take a lot of rechargable batteries to get a decent voltage - but the noise floor would be stunning.

[chrisj]

I had to make my amp AND cab sims zero latency because tracking with any latency was too disturbing to me... and I don't find that speaker cabinet impulses are really the answer. They're too static, like a fake reverb or a ride cymbal sample. I did mine differently (but still using elements of convolution) and got it better to my ear but it's still not really the same as a live speaker. Does okay at letting the emotion through but doesn't ADD anything.

[razorz]

Check out waves gtr3 and digidesign eleven. They are not perfect but sound pretty darn good, and with tdm the latency is nill.

[Tunes 666]

I think the best results I have had have been from my Line 6 amp.... but it does not always do it.... when the sound works it can sound really warm and good...but not always gets the sound you want.... a find Amplitube 2 to be the same....

What I might try next is go into my line 6 with the cab sim turned off.... and then stick some cab impulses on it..... this might sound interesting...