When the client asks...."why doesn't my mix sound like the pros"?

[Absolute]

Originally Posted by absrec

What I then do is play them something that I did from the ground up (hopefully in a similar style to what they are doing) so that they can see that I am capable of delivering the sound they want. At that point, most rational people understand that the problem is not me after all, it's the fault of the last person to work on it.


-Aaron

BINGO..You saved me some typing

If their individual tracks suck. You pull up a mix with tracks that dont suck so they can hear the difference on those individual tracks. Forget the whole mix at first--just A/b their solo tracks against good ones.

Sounds goes farther than words.

Telling them to by a $10,000 guitar is simply lying to them. Whoever said that needs to understand the difference.

But plenty of good mixes are done with subpar tracks. Depends on what and type of music though.

[ScottTunes]

Originally Posted by CompEq

First of all, I wouldn't try to explain this to a client who has a poor understanding of the businss and what it takes to get a decent product. And as a disclaimer I have heard some stuff recorded in a garage with a handfull of 57's on a Mackie that stood up to most modern stuff these days (a tribute to the guy who did it). But here's one approach:

3 weeks at studios $52,500.00

3 weeks with tracking and mixing your album $31,500.00

3 weeks with producing your album $42,000.00

Having master your album $25,000.00

Having to recoup all this and more before making a dime

Not making excuses why your album sounds like a demo PRICELESS!

I love this answer! In short, "how much cash have you got?" For so much an hour, I can teach you this n that, and in 10 years or less we'll have pro results!

I've heard some great material recorded on crap, by shit-for-brains with bunghole equipment, that sounded incredibly good! So the magic can happen. But it's back to the material, arrangement, and performer.

I try to gently tell them BEFORE WE START, that I am simply making a record of their performance. Studio technique can only do so much. It is really dependent upon their preparedness, etc... Sometimes they get it...

Thankfully, I don't get that question (title of this thread) too much. I wish I could turn down "crap" when it comes knocking!

[Sigma]

never had that problem so no answer..my mix sounds sooo much better than what they walk in with they usually want to kiss me..

[Y-Studios]

Originally Posted by redrue

This might work:


Hand the client a 'prosumer' video camera and tell him
to go shoot some clips that look 'just like' Spiderman 3.

jejeje! Yess! thats it.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by ryst

Lately I have been getting a lot of tracks to mix that are recorded poorly and the client gets disappointed when the final mix doesn't sound as good as a modern cd. I personally think most modern cd's sound like ass but that's besides the point.

They don't seem to understand the "garbage in, garbage out" philosophy. They don't understand why their $100 signal chain doesn't compare to the pro's $10,000 signal chain. They don't understand that a good recording is actually necessary.


I was thinking of making a list of answers to this question and giving it to clients when they get disappointed with the final product. I don't want to offend anyone but when i try to be honest, they seem to get upset with me. What's the best way to approach this?

I think the list of answers to the question is a good idea -- but not after they're already disappointed!

Give it to them before...

Make a hand out and put it on your website... along with tips on how to avoid/minimize the associated problems. (How to's with good meta-tags draw visitors. And visitors are sales leads.)


But if you just give it to them afterwards it's going to look and feel to them as though you're making excuses and blaming them...

[Stevil]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

it's a big part of the aesthetic of recording to mask every last bit of the artifice of it all, and leave the illusion that what you're hearing is just the spontaneous flowing of the artist's inspiration.

[miqer]

Originally Posted by Midiguy

When a guitarist tells me he wants to sound like James Taylor, I tell him to go spend $10,000 on a nice acoustic guitar, then go take lessons from James himself for 10 years or so, then come back and we'll make you sound like James Taylor. Moral of the story, the instrument and the performance is key.

Tell him to also date Joni Mitchell for a while...

[rwhitney]

I usually say it doesn't sound like the pros because I'm NOT a pro. (If I were, I wouldn't be working with you!)

[colinmiller]

Originally Posted by Sigma

never had that problem so no answer..my mix sounds sooo much better than what they walk in with they usually want to kiss me..

It's either that, or they are upset that it doesn't sound as awful as the demo they came in with.

[22busy]

Tell 'em the truth . . . that major artists spend (or used to spend) big bucks on great tracking/mixing engineers and in top studios equipped with good gear for a reason. If they could've produced the same result on your client's budget, wouldn't they have done that and saved a ton of money?

[Slipperman]

Originally Posted by Sigma

never had that problem so no answer..my mix sounds sooo much better than what they walk in with they usually want to kiss me..

LMFBO.

Well... a seemingly arrogant response, but, to be fair, one which also decidedly embraces the mindset necessary to mix for a living IMHO.

Then again... I suppose there is some wisdom in considering the eventuality of working for a 'Utopian' client who simply cannot be made to grasp the linear relationship between what was tracked and what the end product will ultimately sound like.

I suspect NO ONE, even you Mike, can escape becoming embroiled in that scenario at some juncture... if you mix long enough.

Fact is: Putting aside all the western civilization "Little Engine that Could" hyperbole/mythology... Some jobs are simply UNDOABLE from a 'defensible sonics' standpoint inside of the given constraints of time and budget. The basic tracking is just too dreadful. Period.

You cannot properly present that which has never been even remotely captured in the first place.

Those are the ones we PASS on, as we get older, and hopefully wiser.

Best regards,

SM.

[slaveern]

Originally Posted by DontLetMeDrown

I've had clients that have had some pretty high expectations for their albums-- Saying they want their mixes to sound like Perfect Circle/Tool. I tell them "I'll do my best to come close, but in the end, it's still going to sound like you." Then I point out the differences in guitar&bass amps, vocal style, musical style. I explain that all of that stuff really does add up. Most people will understand when you lay it all out for them. If I ever get somebody truly hardcore about sounding like someone else, I'll do some research and give him a laundry list of gear to rent/purchase and tell him "LET'S DO IT!"

This definitely sounds like good customer service. Kudos to you.

[dbbubba]

Originally Posted by DigitMus

Part of the problem is a generation (or even 2) that have been raised in the climate of "You're special, you can be anything you want if you just try" - Entitlement is the new black, nobody's "bad" at anything, they're just misunderstood.
So sorry sunshine; 90% of everything is crap, and you haven't found your way to the other 10.

Scott

Oh so true!

This is one of the big reasons why I quit the portion of the business where I recorded and mixed anyone who rang up on the phone and could pay the hourly or day rate.
Initially I had a passion that allowed me to pour a lot of effort into every band, but after enough years I felt like the guy running the ferris wheel at the amusement park!
People would pay to ride my studio.... weeeee we're maing a record with Danny!
I acn't tell you how many times I said, "Yeah, I think you guys have a chance at getting signed."
This got especially out of hand once I had a few bands that did get signed from my demos. Still, I had to make money, so I lied a little.

The other part of the problem is that when people can record/produce music by themselves, and on their own rigs IN SECLUSION they are generally isolated from reality.
Reality translates to someone telling them that what they are working so deligently on isn't going down a very good pathway.
Often it is, "Gee, I'm making my own record! Isn't it grand to be me recording me?"

I'll be honest... I missed the "fun" of mixing stuff that was recorded at other places that sucked because I was blunt and told the people what was wrong with the tracks. I rarely had to mix stuff from other studios because of this. I didn't care. I was bokked nearly 100% and I didn't want to jack around with stuff that was awfull.
Many of these people eventually had me track and their stuff, but a few projects slipped through where I tried to resurect a bad tracking session.
I generally talked people into replaceing the crap stuff. Hopefully, the drum tracks made sense.

I mixed on band that was on an indie label that had recorded at large and very capable studio, but the tracking was a joke!
There were mistakes that were un-repairable and totally in-excuseable.
Bad punches.
Punches where the instrument (GTR) tone changed or EQ was changed.
Punches were bleed from other instruments came and went.

I mixed for about six hours and turned to the band and said, "I can't make this sound like you want! It's a wreck and you know it."
I offered to take the four days they had set aside for mixing and retrack ALL of the GTRs. We did this and I mixed it for free.
I did their next release on the label and got $12,500.00 for a project took twenty one days.

Be brutally honest and DON'T EVER GET BACKED INTO A CORNER WHERE YOU HAVE TO EVER MAKE AN EXCUSE!

[Snatchman]

I 've found that most of the younger artist, bands, etc. have no real point of reference. When they hear their " Pro" CD reference, they have been misled by todays marketing that any DAW, workstation or computer will give you these " Pro" results. That don't include learning curve time needed to get good results..They haven't been around a lot of Pro studios or even Pro project studios for that matter. That being said, I guess it goes even further than just being young and " green"..... I had a friend that just recently passed away ( RIP), that I thought as well as many others that knew him, was one hellava songwriter/producer/artist. He was convinced that expensive equipment didn't really matter, it was all about the performance. Of course, he is right about the performance being president, but good gear just makes the performance shine that much better! He could get good sounds out of low-end gear, but I finally convinced him that good gear mattered more than he thought. I actually tracked and mixed some of his songs thru my gear (( not saying that mine gear is all that but......definately a step up from what he was using...( think Alesis MMT-8 as a sequencer...).. I just tell the clients that every thing works hand in hand. Each compliments the other. Good source, good gear, good ears: = good results!..YMMV

[Kiwiburger]

Playing devils advocate for a bit ... there actually is a helluva lot you can do in a decent modern DAW to make turds all nice and shiney ...

The "pro" results that these young clients might be wanting may simply be the result of quantised, sample-replaced drums, layers of auto-tuned vocals, hyper compression and some cool effects.

Of course, they may not be prepared to pay for extensive editing and tweaking. And there are limits to what anyone can do given some material.

But even bad arrangements can be chopped around and tracks gated and muted and otherwise fixed.

If you can play and arrange and have midi skills, there is basically no reason to give anyone a track that sounds unprofessional. There may not be much you can do about a bad vocal take, but there is usually something that can be done - and if that's the only thing letting the track down, it should be obvious where the fault lies.

Quite often less is more, and much less is much more.

[razorz]

I think a good response to the original question is to tell them to pay more. We all know money solves everything. If they pay like a rock star they become rock stars.

[ryst]

Originally Posted by theblue1

I think the list of answers to the question is a good idea -- but not after they're already disappointed!

Give it to them before...

Make a hand out and put it on your website... along with tips on how to avoid/minimize the associated problems. (How to's with good meta-tags draw visitors. And visitors are sales leads.)


But if you just give it to them afterwards it's going to look and feel to them as though you're making excuses and blaming them...

Very good point. Thanks. thumbsup

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by Midiguy

When a guitarist tells me he wants to sound like James Taylor, I tell him to go spend $10,000 on a nice acoustic guitar, then go take lessons from James himself for 10 years or so, then come back and we'll make you sound like James Taylor. Moral of the story, the instrument and the performance is key.

$10,000 ? thats a bit much. You can get great acoustic sounds with a $500 gtr
I doubt James Taylor used $10,000 on any of his classic records. He played Gibsons back in the day.

[ryst]

Originally Posted by Kiwiburger

Playing devils advocate for a bit ... there actually is a helluva lot you can do in a decent modern DAW to make turds all nice and shiney ...

I agree with your post. But I had a recent experience that lead me to making this thread. There was no comparison to the tracks he gave me to what he wanted them to sound like. In any way shape or form. It was just bad. I have heard much better from the same budget this guy had.

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by slipperman

LMFBO.

Well... a seemingly arrogant response, but, to be fair, one which also decidedly embraces the mindset necessary to mix for a living IMHO.

Then again... I suppose there is some wisdom in considering the eventuality of working for a 'Utopian' client who simply cannot be made to grasp the linear relationship between what was tracked and what the end product will ultimately sound like.

I suspect NO ONE, even you Mike, can escape becoming embroiled in that scenario at some juncture... if you mix long enough.

Fact is: Putting aside all the western civilization "Little Engine that Could" hyperbole/mythology... Some jobs are simply UNDOABLE from a 'defensible sonics' standpoint inside of the given constraints of time and budget. The basic tracking is just too dreadful. Period.

You cannot properly present that which has never been even remotely captured in the first place.

Those are the ones we PASS on, as we get older, and hopefully wiser.

Best regards,

SM.

i always let my clients hear what they did before they start with me up against what i ask them to bring in as a "mix guide" for me ..

they approved it to the point where i got it to mix..i look like a saint when i fix it as well as can be done and i edujmakate them for their future endeavors

it is all psychology..no magic there
i think i like doing what i am doing now better than what i did before except for getting all the awards as it's music I CHOOSE and I LIKE

i started working directly with major bands and producers in the early 80's no ramp up..i work with local people alot now which i never did before [ i was too busy when i was young] i admit it can be a PIA just because they never really have a objective concept of their work or a producer to facilitate that perspective so i ultimately wind up wearing the hat without the extra denaro

sometimes what they tracked before i get it sounds like sheit but that never stopped a great song from being great [96 tears, wooly bully. kick out the jams,the whole court of crimson king album etc etc] if the groove and vibe are mixed right people [the buying public] feel it and it works ..i never heard anyone say oh i hate that song because the snare drum is muddy

i really never had the issue spoken of come up except years ago at the studio mixing for my fathers project [who was a pro] when one mix was great and the other blew..i had to play him the samples of the sucky stuff to show him if the bottom or top just isn't their no eq can make it magically appear..but he was old by that time and didn't know how bad samples could be as he cut all real instruments during his career

AND YES..if you don't think your great at what you do then how can you instill confidence in your cients?

[lane thaw]

There is no substitute for Tracking in a Pro Studio with a seasoned engineer who cares.

[kats]

You guys are light weight, and have nothing on me

I'll be honest... I missed the "fun" of mixing stuff that was recorded at other places that sucked because I was blunt and told the people what was wrong with the tracks

Yeah yeah...you know I said the same thing to a band last week, but here's the kicker-----------> I recorded the original effen tracks to begin with

Hahaha, dead serious - you try that one and get away with it....

Please please sit down, the applause is embarressing me - and there's a little more to THAT story

[Bob Yordan]

Originally Posted by Y-Studios

Originally Posted by redrue
This might work:


Hand the client a 'prosumer' video camera and tell him
to go shoot some clips that look 'just like' Spiderman 3

jejeje! Yess! thats it.

+1

[andsonic]

I am coming out of a situation that the OP stated. The irony is that I'm the one who did much of the initial recording on my client's prosumer rig. The client was much more comfortable in their living room and was quite happy to be only paying me. Weeellll, during the first day of mixing, *all* of the little mistakes/pitch issues came to the for, when we listened on the significantly superior monitoring in the studio. Out went the schedule, in came hours pitch correction and micro-edits. Out went the "live-sounding" production goals, in came Pop-dum.

To cut to the chase: the client is now much more aware/educated on what it takes to do album quality work. There's going to be more pre-production done for the next production.
I've been educated too. I need to be way more up-front about the expectations of what can happen with home-brewed tracks.

A point to be made to potential home-recording clients. Don't make the trip to the studio until your tracks/performances sound exactly how you want them to.