the sweetest converters i've ever heard... and the tracks to prove it

[u b k]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

I still don't get the comparison with the Apogee. The tracks were recorded through the Burl, right? Where and how is the Apogee being used?

all the tracks went thru the burl, then were mixed thru the either the console (for the roughs in david's room) or my nicerizer (at my room). the console was multed, one feed to the burls, one to the apogees.

for those who were curious, we didn't hit the burls trafo's hard at all, in fact if you look at the waveforms of the roughs you'll see the peak to average is pretty damn close for both converters.

kriz, i figured you might recognize the stamp of the nicer on my mix...


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[Greek for "Greg"]

What's "the nicer" ?

Wow, a link to this thread is already up on the Wave Distribution website. That's a good coordinated effort!

[peeder]

Originally Posted by binarybob

I think you misunderstood me in all my politeness. Or maybe you're just agreeing. That's pretty much exactly what I'm saying.

As for your ASCIIist comment, remember, you're posting in my world. This is the mother tongue.

What is the fricken point of this anyway? It's an old trick, and not a good one........

NickCiske.com | Binary - it's digitalicious!

[peeder]

One thing I'll say is that "color" is a safe haven...the moment you embrace coloration in a converter or something along those lines, you free yourself from most rigorous testing and enter the subjective domain. This is a generally more pliable marketing angle, although the most transparent, hi-fidelity solution will always have a premium position in the market.

Even so, that coloration can still be characterized and compared to other processes. What I'm reading (I haven't had a chance to listen) is that there is xfrmr buzz and harmonics on the lowend and some reduction in the highs (whether just slower transient response or euphonic syrup or whatever).

Not sure I would want a flavor converter on every track...there's a debate there...do you go for contrast or consistency. Some people like to use different preamps for different tracks for contrast, others like to use a single console to get everything to sound alike, arguing it blends better. The same could go for mics, compressors, and if we're going to intentionally flavor our converters, them too.

The combinatorial matrix gets a bit daunting quickly...I myself am more comfortable with the idea of a maximally transparent converter that I can just ignore because I have enough to consider and would like to stay focused on the music. But I can see the appeal of adding more color options along the way if you're jaded and loaded enough to do so.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by BrianT

I want to have a listen to the Burls. Precisely because they are not neutral.

Add me to the list as well.

This thing to me sounds better than the UA2192 that i really didn't like at all.

[Nu-tra]

That sounds killer!

[melodic_disaster]

Originally Posted by GilWave

Is that what you think it is? Was UBK not clear in the opening paragraph how this all went down?

Shameless? Is the post not compelling? Do you think the comparisons are stacked in Burl's favor? Is this thread not a valid, informative exercise in showing off some high-end gear in the High End forum? Or do you truly feel it is invalid because I asked UBK to do it, and paid for the studio time?

UBK, if he didn't like the product, would not post - period. His comments are his own, and sincere and legitimate - he is not blowing smoke up your a** in exchange for compensation, which is what it seems like is being alluded to here.

Do you think Gearslutz is not a commercial entity? Do you think it operates as a charity? Look at the upper right hand corner of the site - there's the payment. Me, Chandler, Mercenary, SSL, Apogee, Audient, Neve, Dangerous Music, GC Pro, et al, etc., ad infinitum ad nauseum. We're all paying to be here. Or should I say, we're all paying FOR YOU TO BE HERE. Perhaps you didn't notice that you were not asked for a monetary subscription to become and remain a member when you signed up.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that we should therefore blast our companies everywhere and smother GS members with hyperbole. But I have strived to develop and create and execute interesting content that is worth watching or listening to, in order to expose and promote the products that I distribute, AS WELL AS PRODUCTS I DO NOT but still think are cool and relevant anyway. I have not hidden nor obfuscated my involvement in the posts.

Greg (UBK) has made his association with Wave known 100 times already, as anyone with even a casual Gearslutz perusal relationship can attest. Look at the first paragraph of his post on this thread, I think it is pretty obvious what he was doing. And duh... all the tracks are hosted on my site with my URL as part of the link.

It is the cynicism with which he is being treated that I object to - he is not doing this for the money, nor is he overstating his reaction or enthusiasm. What he posts is truly what he feels and believes, and is not influenced by the fact that I asked him to do it.

That's why I took issue with the Billy Mays comment - not UBK at all.

Yup. and we disclosed that, time and time again.

Nauseating? This from someone who insists on using 1s and 0s when he writes a post?

Huh? Really? Wouldn't that be assembly language?

When Rufus comes and posts here from Berlin, should he use High German? That was originally his Mother Tongue (or, in the case of Deutschland, Father Tongue?) Should we be communicating in Latin, then?

really, Bob - we are all on here as a community - communicating in English for the sake of sharing and expressing ourselves and being understood, regardless of our country (or language) of origin. Your insistence on posting in Binary is not just trite and cute, but pretentious and frustrating as hell.

01001101011110010010000001110100011101110110111100100000011000110110010101101110011101000111001100100000001011010010000001011001010011010100110101010110

-g

my last post. count it to the right. GS is now oficially a magazine to me ala Mix or EM. They shove those down my cake hole for free and I throw them out when I get them. Gear Slutz has died and Gear Pimps has taken over. C YA!

[andrewj]

Originally Posted by beats workin'

Kick- RE20--TAB V78
Snare- RE16 or Beyer Soundstar Mk3--TAB V78
KIT 44- RCA 44BX-- Neve 1066 (no eq)
KIT 67- U67-- Neve 1066 (no eq)
Bass- DI into TAB V78 (bass is an old Jazz bass with flatwounds)
EG - Royer 121- TG2
AG- U67--1066
Perc.- U67--1066
Prophet/Rhodes- DI-- V78
Melodica- RCA 44 into 1066 into IVP PRV-1
Vox- U67 --1066

in other words: no instruments were harmed by a beringer device !!!

sounds real nice! already like them a lot!

pricing and german distributor please???

[norman_nomad]

Well I'm not sure if it was the Burl converters, but I found the raw tracks a pleasure to work with. Great job with tracking.

For fun I put together a quicky ITB mix with a more "radio" styled production flavor. I'm sure UBK will hear it as a bastardization of his song, but it was fun to do!

[Pyxis360]

It's not a HUGE, MASSIVE, COLLOSSAL difference but it's a little nicer on the ears.

I dig it.

[Koed]

hmm ..$3000 .. for a pair of transformers?
Wouldn't any converter sound better after going through a $3000 piece of outboard gear with some really nicely wound trannies?

[Pyxis360]

Originally Posted by Koed

Wouldn't any converter sound better after going through a $3000 piece of outboard gear with some really nicely wound trannies?

yeah

but maybe this is way to skip getting extra transformers and stuff, you just plug it in and you get all that stuff in one

[jayman]

Originally Posted by melodic_disaster

my last post. count it to the right. GS is now oficially a magazine to me ala Mix or EM. They shove those down my cake hole for free and I throw them out when I get them. Gear Slutz has died and Gear Pimps has taken over. C YA!

Yeah right.... I bet you'll stick around

[Andreas G]

Interesting shootout! I think I could live with either one but what me really distracts in this comparison is the out of tune e-guitar. Perhaps my hearing is just wired today as nobody seems to hear this.

Andreas

[Pyxis360]

How can Gearslutz be shoving adverts down your throat when you choose to click, read, and respond to a thread?

I thought that was like, your responsibility?

Just curious.

But really, this isn't life and death stuff, just a bunch of us audio nerds, reading and writing about equipment. Just think, something like 1000 people just died of starvation in the time it took me to write this...I wonder how they would feel about a sales peeps on GS.

Perspective man.

Oh yes and back to the Burl, I want one with 4 Ch In/Out please make one pleeeaseeeeeeeeeee.

[lakeshorephatty]

I really enjoyed the song UBK.. Keep on keepin on.

Thanks very much for the comparrison. After the initial reading I was feeling a bit woozy having just gotten into 16x's last year, however after comparing the two I'm glad i think its spitting distance and that you would learn to work with either converter.

I think starting with the burls you would always end up with something really analog but I like things about the apogee mix too. That transient detail that is smoothed by the burls you may sometimes want. It all depends who you are recording and what they go for.

Bottom line I'm still happy with my apogees but then again i've never recorded anything but digital so my opinion may not count :P

[greatgreatriver]

Thanks for the audio files -

[ddageek]

First discloseure since some seam to be big on that the dealer I once worked for sold products that Gil Distributes as well as a manufacture he once worked for and well about 700 others!

gregiorie Great review nice tracks and I can't believe the difference using 2 diffeent converters as 2 tracks night and day!

Now the goal of trancperancy in audio is a good on but its like the quest for the Holy Grail good luck with that one. Everything distorts everything is colered there is no transparent piece of audio equipment! Now there are degrees of audio transparency and if you step over to the remote forum you will find a group expounding upon a more transparent heard of gear than you will in this the highend country of gearslutz.

I like this converter I wan't one not sure I can justify the price for what it is but If your using or lusting after a German LDC debateing which Neve Clone is best don't knok this thing because its going to fit ight in with your sonic signature and maybe just maybe its going to be that piece of euphonic nirvana (not the band) that makes your music work!

[FreeDanny]

Originally Posted by u b k

the burl, with the new circuit and new transformers, sounded so much richer, deeper, smoother, and more analog than the apogees we were using for comparison (the ad16's)

Originally Posted by MicSlut666

@ u b k

Did you use the old Apogee AD16 or the new Apogee AD16x with the built in Big Ben Wordclock? There is supposed to be a BIG diference.

good question

[heyman]

So, the individual tracks hit the Burl for conversion...

Then you gave us a stereo mix with the Burl and the Apogee's..

Like I said in my previous post, I like the burl's and I heard a diffrence.

How wide would that gap be if we heard one version of everything tracked and mixed thru the apogees and one tracked and mixed thru the Burl?

I would say the gap would be even wider..

very interesting..

[Plush]

In my type of work, I do not require, nor do I want, the converter to change the sound in any way.

We chose dCS for this reason.

Burl may be highly valuable for others who require its "sound."
However, why should a designer decide what sound the customer requires?

[beats workin']

there's a bit of confusion to clear up- the Apogees are NOT the AD16, as stated, but the Rosetta 800 series. So keep in mind that the Rosetta 800 is indeed a fine converter and a fraction of the cost of the Burl.
-David

[GYang]

Originally Posted by GilWave

We're all paying to be here. Or should I say, we're all paying FOR YOU TO BE HERE. Perhaps you didn't notice that you were not asked for a monetary subscription to become and remain a member when you signed up.

We are paying, too. By contributing our time in the process of finding kind of consensus what is impartially good, great or junk.
Let imagine that average post takes 5 minutes of member's time (incl. reading thread, short contemplating, writing, posting, Internet delays etc.). 1000 posts would mean at least 90 hours of intellectual activity (and even in developing countries such hour would cost at least 100 $). Even if we discount it several times we talk about valued contribution anyway.
Now, what is valuable here dealer's or gearslutz's opinion?
Right upper angle should be place where dealers should post their message.
All other posts should be only focused to technical explanations and clarifications of functional capabilities (if asked).
Promotion and pimping on GS no matter how nicely (and even unbiased) done, with good intentions and honest targets is different type of activity than experience sharing.
GS owners should decide should we move toward commercialization and advertising or volunteer info sharing.

[???]

Originally Posted by GilWave

Do you think Gearslutz is not a commercial entity? Do you think it operates as a charity? Look at the upper right hand corner of the site - there's the payment. Me, Chandler, Mercenary, SSL, Apogee, Audient, Neve, Dangerous Music, GC Pro, et al, etc., ad infinitum ad nauseum. We're all paying to be here. Or should I say, we're all paying FOR YOU TO BE HERE. Perhaps you didn't notice that you were not asked for a monetary subscription to become and remain a member when you signed up.

I think it's arrogant and presumptuous of you to state the nature of Jules' forum. Not that I disagree. It has become a defacto commercial entity, but did not start as one. When I signed up (my original account), there were no banners, no advertising, no monetary subscription, and a feeling of how cool it was that this was the case. It was a nice online community of peers and colleagues, very generously created and hosted by Jules. I would return your presumption with my presumption that Jules still has a muscle-fiber or two that cringes when he sees threads like this one. Not because the content isn't "cool", but because it is planted advertising, dressed up in the fashion of 'early-Gearslutz' collegial information exchange.

Originally Posted by GilWave

Greg (UBK) has made his association with Wave known 100 times already, as anyone with even a casual Gearslutz perusal relationship can attest. Look at the first paragraph of his post on this thread, I think it is pretty obvious what he was doing. And duh... all the tracks are hosted on my site with my URL as part of the link.

Well, he said: "i was recently asked to run the new converters from burl audio thru their paces and give some feedback to the designer before he ramped up production."

Well, I sure think it would avoid all this if it was more explicit. I think it's disingenuous to put out a compensated endorsement on a community-type-forum in this way. It really wouldn't take much to clarify, and doing so would probably engender more respect for you and the companies you represent.

Originally Posted by GilWave

Shameless? Is the post not compelling? Do you think the comparisons are stacked in Burl's favor? Is this thread not a valid, informative exercise in showing off some high-end gear in the High End forum? Or do you truly feel it is invalid because I asked UBK to do it, and paid for the studio time?

UBK, if he didn't like the product, would not post - period. His comments are his own, and sincere and legitimate - he is not blowing smoke up your a** in exchange for compensation, which is what it seems like is being alluded to here.

Originally Posted by GilWave

It is the cynicism with which he is being treated that I object to - he is not doing this for the money, nor is he overstating his reaction or enthusiasm. What he posts is truly what he feels and believes, and is not influenced by the fact that I asked him to do it.

I'm certain that Dan Marino was sincere when he thanked NutriSystem for getting him back to his playing weight™, but just as certain he wouldn't be telling me so enthusiastically without the paycheck. Magazines like ProSoundNews are full of "articles" that are simply press-releases written by the company whose products the "article" is about! There's a fine line here, with that on the other side.

Greg's veracity is not so much in question here, and he does a good job with this stuff. It's more just a distaste for this subversive style of marketing, your apparent outlook on Gearslutz as fish-in-a-barrel customer base, and your sense of entitlement to pimp things this way because you buy banner ads. It's the leadership, not the soldier.

Finally, while I agree that Binary Bob's posts are a pain in the ass to have to cut, paste, and decode, I do think he's making some good points, and the whole binary thing is funny enough to lighten the discussion a bit.

[heyman]

UBK /Beats ...

What do you guys think of my previous post.. ?

[Pyxis360]

daym ???, that's what I call a first post!

[norman_nomad]

Yep. Question marks is pretty much spot on.

[Pyxis360]

01010001 01110101 01100101 01110011 01110100 01101001 01101111 01101110 00100000 01001101 01100001 01110010 01101011 01110011 00111111 00111111 00100000 00100000 01001111 01110010 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01101001 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01010010 01101001 01100100 01100100 01101100 01100101 01110010 00111111

[Halfmoon]

U B K, Gil etc..

Thanks for the posts and info. I appreciate your time and effort and it does sound good and does wet the whistle (another converter for me to consider)

Gil, is it exit 55 or 57?

Rich

[u b k]

Originally Posted by heyman

How wide would that gap be if we heard one version of everything tracked and mixed thru the apogees and one tracked and mixed thru the Burl?

I would say the gap would be even wider..

imo the gap would be vast. i've recorded very similar songs with david many times over the last year, and while i loved the organic nature of the music we made (typically unplanned, freeform jams with 3-5 musicians on sweet instruments) i've always felt the tones we got were somehow one layer removed from the sounds of the instruments themselves. i've never quite liked the top end on cymbals and snare, but i was never totally sure conversion was the issue.

after this session, i am completely sure my gripes were with the conversion. tracking with the burls made a gigantic difference, every sound we laid down i got more and more jazzed with how things were accumulating.

all i need now is 8 tracks of tape, then my vision of creating a newer, better 1976 for music will at last be complete, muahahahaa!


gregoire
del
ubk
.