the sweetest converters i've ever heard... and the tracks to prove it

[WunderBro Flo]

The thing is, nobody doubts that the Burl sounds different than the Apogee. Many like the Burl better (including myself), others like the Apogee better. It does not make much sense to ask which one is better.

I think the most important and interesting questions are:
1- Which one is more true to the source? (I believe it is the Apogee is and thet the Burl colors the signal in a pleasant way)

2 - What is responsible for the Burl´s nice sound? (I believe it is the analog electronics esp. the transformer in the analog input section)

3 - Is it a cool move to pack a sound altering transformer into an expensive ADC when all most people want is the cool coloration but do not deen another ADC?

4 - Does the Burl preamp (500 format) put the same coloration on a signal, using the same Burl transformer(s)? Interesting for people like me who want the coloration but not the ADC (at least not for that price).

Rock on!
Pat

[cdkelly]

Originally Posted by WildCowboys

The thing is, nobody doubts that the Burl sounds different than the Apogee. Many like the Burl better (including myself), others like the Apogee better. It does not make much sense to ask which one is better.

I think the most important and interesting questions are:
1- Which one is more true to the source? (I believe it is the Apogee is and thet the Burl colors the signal in a pleasant way)

2 - What is responsible for the Burl´s nice sound? (I believe it is the analog electronics esp. the transformer in the analog input section)

3 - Is it a cool move to pack a sound altering transformer into an expensive ADC when all most people want is the cool coloration but do not deen another ADC?

4 - Does the Burl preamp (500 format) put the same coloration on a signal, using the same Burl transformer(s)? Interesting for people like me who want the coloration but not the ADC (at least not for that price).

Rock on!
Pat

in answer to the last one, I do know the transformers are different. They're all custom. He has the BX1, BX2, BX3 and BX4 if I'm not mistaken. The preamp has a custom mic input transformer and 2 different available options for a line output transformer. The converter has a line input transformer. I don't own the preamp but do own the converter. It's nice but I haven't used it on demanding stuff yet so I can't really write you a review. Soon... The preamp looks tempting, as does the Juggernaut and the A Designs stuff; but between my 4 channels of API and 4 channels of vintage ADM (like API but darker and hotter) I have to believe I'm close enough to covering those bases. My next pre's need to be some kind of Neve sounding thing because it's the one thing I don't have. Neve and Rupert Neve Designs are too expensive for me at this time but I've looked at Calrec, Aurora, Vintech, Chameleon, etc. Any ideas would be appreciated. It's looking rather Vintech right now.

Chad

[Djunfitforwork]

Just heard the first mp3 on the list -which I'm assuming is not the apogee -but whatever it is sounds superb -best sound from an mp3 that I have ever heard.

Phil x

[Sacalait]

I don't hear a stark difference. ...but I'm just a pro with mortal ears!...

whatevah...

[u b k]

Originally Posted by WildCowboys

It does not make much sense to ask which one is better.

asking 'which one sounds better to me' is the *only* question that makes sense.

Originally Posted by WildCowboys

1- Which one is more true to the source? (I believe it is the Apogee is and thet the Burl colors the signal in a pleasant way)

my impression, based on actually using them both extensively, is very different: they both color the source. the apogee's color is not faithful to the source, the burl's is. burl gives you the soul of what is there, but with a little sweetness. apogee makes everything sound like apogee.

respectfully, speculating on what gear sounds like is a bit absurd, and i can't see what it adds to the discussion other than to reinforce your own biases that are not grouded in actual experience.

Originally Posted by WildCowboys

Is it a cool move to pack a sound altering transformer into an expensive ADC when all most people want is the cool coloration but do not deen another ADC?

you cannot separate out the transformer from the rest of the analog circuit and say 'this is what colors the sound'; that's not how electronics work. the burl is not a clean a/d with a colored transformer slapped on to make it pleasing. the sound is a composite of every single component in the box, and is every bit as much influenced by what is not there --- ic's, stock op-amps, capacitors --- as by what is.

if it were otherwise, i'd be selling carnhill transformer pass-thru boxes and everyone could make their focusrites and millenias sound like neves.

Originally Posted by WildCowboys

Does the Burl preamp (500 format) put the same coloration on a signal, using the same Burl transformer(s)?

different trafo's, but more importantly, different circuits. very different sound.

really, the burl is not hard to find, you can demo the thing if for no other reason than to put to bed any speculations you might have about what it does, how it does it, and whether you find it useful.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[lucey]

In tracking, nothing is true to the source. The source is the source, it's in 3d, it's real. So it's a matter of presenting the source. The Burl has a musical transformer color that gives what you'd want to hear from a transformer in the low end and the midrange, and in so doing can help to present a lot of sources for a lot of styles of music in a really good light. Particularly the rock/pop, folk, blues, jazz camp ... the world where distortion is not the enemy and transformers are often the remedy to 20-20k and third order harmonic smear.

For smooth jazz or classical music best to look elsewhere for your 'perfect' converter. Similarly, as a mastering converter it's too colored for most things as it's transformer density clouds dense program material. But for most recording it's a strong contender as a front end AD. You can't get some sources presented the same via processing, and this is one of those cases IMO.

[Astromann]

To me $3500 is WAAAYY too much to ask for a set of ADC with some high quality caps and transformers...RIDICULOUS!!

[lucey]

Originally Posted by Astromann

To me $3500 is WAAAYY too much to ask for a set of ADC with some high quality caps and transformers...RIDICULOUS!!

I agree it seems a lot of money .... then again, it's a boutique product, hand made in the US one at a time. If you look at Lavry Gold, Prism, Weiss, or other high end ADs, it's actually not a lot of money. Maybe you can design something as good, make it in China, and sell it for less! An 8 CH. version for around that price would sell very well I'd think.

[GilWave]

Originally Posted by Astromann

To me $3500 is WAAAYY too much to ask for a set of ADC with some high quality caps and transformers...RIDICULOUS!!

Compared to what - $8500 for a U47?

Remember, $3500 is MSRP (List Price) - it is not what the B2 Bomber sells for.

There are cheaper ADCs, and there are more expensive ADCs - I believe the Burl is reasonably priced, comparatively speaking.

[Duardo]

To me $3500 is WAAAYY too much to ask for a set of ADC with some high quality caps and transformers...RIDICULOUS!!

If you've found a converter you like as much as, or more than, this one, then sure, for you it probably is too much.

But if you like the sound of it and can't get that sound with any cheaper combination of components, then it may well be worth it. It's certainly not out of line with other high-end converters pricewise.

[WunderBro Flo]

ubk,
my thoughts are not based on 100% speculation as I owned a Rosetta800 for a long time. It´s color is not as evident as the pretty huge difference between the burl and the apogee files here. I am pretty sure if I ran a signal through the rosetta and post original and the extra DAAD version, most would not be able to tell them apart. the burl vs the apogee however is easy to point out. hence my assumption that the burl adds more of it´s own sound to the source. makes sense to you?

in addition I find it my speculations no more absurd than some of yours, like that all the components are responsible for the burls evident coloration. how would you know? did you take it apart, exchange all the parts and listen to the results to find out? I doubt it. maybe there are 2 or three key components (among those the transformer) that are responsible for "that" sound....there is a good chance that those components could be isolated without the digital part of the unit to build a pass-through coloration unit at a lower price.

and about the "biased" part, yeah, maybe I am biased, but I think someone who got paid by the manufacturer is not in the best position to call others biased

best,
pat

[Astromann]

Originally Posted by lucey

I agree it seems a lot of money .... then again, it's a boutique product, hand made in the US one at a time. If you look at Lavry Gold, Prism, Weiss, or other high end ADs, it's actually not a lot of money. Maybe you can design something as good, make it in China, and sell it for less! An 8 CH. version for around that price would sell very well I'd think.

I agree that relatively speaking its not a lot more expensive than some competing products.
But my point is most of them are WAAAYY overpriced, simply because they are able to do it and people pay it...it's like real estate in a sense...an inflated and hyped market...until something brings it crashing down.
Its not a matter of getting it built in China either, many mics that are supposed to be USA assembled have chinese capsules (the same ones they use in cheaper mics) and they sell for a couple of thousand which is at the very least...not very honest.
Maybe the shell or something like that could be made in China... but the cost of transformers, caps and labour etc...would be way below the asking price...even probably factoring in R&D...they could still make a great profit at half the price.
But as someone said ...people are prepared to pay that...so they ask these over the top prices.
I still think its ridiculous tho!! a good tech could build something with gold plated caps and a frigging platinum transformer for that price...but hey people pay it, they even argue in favor of paying it...so who am I to say anything different?

Originally Posted by GilWave

Compared to what - $8500 for a U47?

Well one of the problems with the U47 thing is the mics that compete (newer ones) like the Wagner, Wunder etc...have shells made in Slovakia (or somewhere like that) that cost a lot...a real lot, ...thereby inflating the prices, then the mic itself sells for almost the same money as a U47.
BUT if they used Chinese metal shells (custom made) they could sell for a LOT LESS!!
But anyway as far as the vintage market goes...it has always been more than a bit silly.
BTW as many would know the vintage guitar market is even worse...a 59 Les Paul sells for any amount of money, there is no limit to it ...$40,000 upwards and more (I used to own one of those when they didn't cost the price of a house) Now you can buy a Japanese Edwards sprayed in nitro for a $1,000 that is immaculately built and very very close to the real thing and put in some Lollars or a set of Wolfetones, rewire it and have a great guitar that is on the same platform..(quality wise) but people still buy the Les Pauls for $100,000 or whatever...so good luck to them, but at the end of the day those guitars are not really worth anywhere near that much money...what to speak of an A to D convertor with some good caps and stuff in it.

Cheers
Cheers

[lucey]

Well, it's truly all relative. What's worth it to you is yours to call. The whole converters-are-overpriced line is Jim Williams, and it's true, sorta kinda. My Pacific Micro was $17,000 in the mid 90s and it's not overpriced at all to me. Then again it's class A discrete all the way. The Burl has design time and parts and all manner of expenses.

I'm a very inexpensive mastering guy so I'm not about to say price is more than fashion in many cases, but not all .... and it's all still relative to you. In these times everything is seeming a little more money than it used to, that's for sure!

[Trakworx]

It bothers me when honest gear manufacturers get accused of price gouging by people who are just guessing what it costs to research, design, build, test, re-research, redesign, rebuild, retest, and market a new product.

When someone goes through all the trouble to bring me a truly musical product like the B2, I am grateful for their efforts. I do not believe they are making huge profits, but they do deserve to be rewarded for what they have created - something that helps others to create better.

If they build a product of value and sell enough to stay in business long enough to turn a profit, then that is a profit earned.

If you can do it for half the price, then you should.

[u b k]

hey pat, rereading my words i think i came across edgy and that wasn't my intention, i apologize for that. sometimes what feels like matter-of-factness in my head, when i view it later, looks somehow aggressive. lousy words!

the thing about feeding a signal thru a rosetta d/a--> a/d loop is that the source has already been digitized; the finest nuances are lost already. where i find the coloration of apogee to be marked is in comparing it what's coming off the board or, better still, off of tape. this is where the burl shines to me and most other converters fall (literally) flat to my ears. the burl 'feels' like the source; like almost every othrr converter on the planet it shifts the tone, but unlike most others it carries 100% of the weight, depth, and soul of the sound. it doesn't sound identical, but it doesn't sound like a digital capture. apogee does, mytek does, lavry does.

so the question for me is not what's more colored, the units in this thread are equally guilty of lacking utter transparency. for me it's what kind of color am i dealing with, and what are the ramifications of subjecting every sound in a mix, plus the final mix itself, to that filter?

fwiw, i never meant to imply you are any more biased than i. now that this thread is 6000 days dead i'll just say that i was 'paid' a rev 1 iPhone in exchange for spending a day in the studio, writing and recording a song, and posting my honest, psyched, and *extremely* biased opinion on what i thought of the burls. either i'm a horrible businessman who severely undervalues his time and gifts, or i had other motivations for putting forth the considerable time and effort involved in presenting the sounds and opinions i did.

the implication many seem to make, and you are implicitly invoking, is that the mere fact of my compensation calls into question the integrity and plausibility of my position. to which i can only say that ime people tend to believe of and condemn in others what they fear to be true of themselves. that this thread somehow became the tempest in a teapot that it did speaks volumes on the smallness of some of the egos involved. it was in many ways a low point in my experience of this community.

it is disappointing to have you so casually play on that suspicious perspective when i simply called you out for theorizing the tonal character of a piece of gear you've never used. that your logic has an internal bootstrapping coherence does not mitigate the fact that you have, and still continue, to speculate on that which you do not know for yourself. and what is most perplexing to me is that i cannot begin to fathom why you choose to do so.


gregory scott - 'ubk'

[Astromann]

Originally Posted by jdub

It bothers me when honest gear manufacturers get accused of price gouging by people who are just guessing what it costs to research, design, build, test, re-research, redesign, rebuild, retest, and market a new product.

When someone goes through all the trouble to bring me a truly musical product like the B2, I am grateful for their efforts. I do not believe they are making huge profits, but they do deserve to be rewarded for what they have created - something that helps others to create better.
If they build a product of value and sell enough to stay in business long enough to turn a profit, then that is a profit earned.

Yes thats probably true, I am not really going to argue this with anyone.
But I do know a lot about R&D and sales cause I design and sell 3d stuff as well...and the amount of sales you generate make it very possible to sell items a LOT CHEAPER...despite extensive researching and development, building and finally marketing.
It's a bit of a catch 22 tho...cause if an item is more on the expensive side , then they will sell a lot less, therefore having to ask more per item, but if its cheaper they will sell more and probably make more money in the long run...profit is relative in other words.
You can often make a lot more profit by cutting your margins a bit and selling an item more cheaply to a lot more people...thats a fact of business (any business)....I am not guessing about that at all.
Its a question of how many they want to sell really...and that has a bearing on total profit more than anything else, but maybe they just want to sell fewer items and more elitely to keep the pro image of the product.
Cheers
Astro

[GilWave]

Originally Posted by Astromann

Its a question of how many they want to sell really...and that has a bearing on total profit more than anything else, but maybe they just want to sell fewer items and more elitely to keep the pro image of the product.

The costing of the Burl B2 has nothing to do with keeping the pro image of the product.

Rather, the price of the Burl was determined by totaling up the Bill of Materials (BOM), adding in the labor and utilities required to build the product and coming up with the Cost of Goods Sold (COGS).

A multiplier is used to derive a MSRP, from which all dealer and distributor discounts are calculated. The dealers and distributors then set the prices based on their cost of doing business. This path is usual and customary in the pro audio industry - the margins are much less than in the MI (Musical Instrument) business.

All of the parts in the Burl B2 Bomber (and the B1 Mic Pre) are of the highest caliber, and great care is taken in their selection and implementation. No one is getting rich off of the products, everyone is just trying to earn a living.

Burl is one of the few manufacturers who are happy to show their product with the top off, so that the components and build quality are visible for all to see. Keep in mind that Rich Williams, the lead designer and founder of Burl Audio is also a musician and recording engineer. As a customer of pro audio products, he is very sensitive to the pricing issue and wants them to be as afordable as possible.

As Burl adds and sells more products as time goes on, if economies of scale result in cost reductions I would expect they will pass them along to the audio public.

-gil

[Astromann]

Originally Posted by GilWave

The costing of the Burl B2 has nothing to do with keeping the pro image of the product.

Rather, the price of the Burl was determined by totaling up the Bill of Materials (BOM), adding in the labor and utilities required to build the product and coming up with the Cost of Goods Sold (COGS).

A multiplier is used to derive a MSRP, from which all dealer and distributor discounts are calculated. The dealers and distributors then set the prices based on their cost of doing business. This path is usual and customary in the pro audio industry - the margins are much less than in the MI (Musical Instrument) business.

All of the parts in the Burl B2 Bomber (and the B1 Mic Pre) are of the highest caliber, and great care is taken in their selection and implementation. No one is getting rich off of the products, everyone is just trying to earn a living.

Burl is one of the few manufacturers who are happy to show their product with the top off, so that the components and build quality are visible for all to see. Keep in mind that Rich Williams, the lead designer and founder of Burl Audio is also a musician and recording engineer. As a customer of pro audio products, he is very sensitive to the pricing issue and wants them to be as afordable as possible.

As Burl adds and sells more products as time goes on, if economies of scale result in cost reductions I would expect they will pass them along to the audio public.

-gil

OK That sounds fair enough, there are many other manufacturers that charge like wounded bulls for their products...and from what you are saying Burl Audio is not one of them.
I accept that
BTW I am not against anyone "getting rich" it's just that it can also be done with fair pricing...and from what you have described Burl Audio does have fair pricing relative to their products.
Cheers
Astro

[lucey]

Originally Posted by Astromann

OK That sounds fair enough, there are many other manufacturers that charge like wounded bulls for their products...and from what you are saying Burl Audio is not one of them.
I accept that
Cheers
Astro

Very nice.


As far as "other manufacturers" I think it's important to remember that everything seems "too expensive" when we can't manage to afford it! If you can DIY, then go for it.

[GilWave]

Originally Posted by lucey

As far as "other manufacturers" I think it's important to remember that everything seems "too expensive" when we can't manage to afford it! If you can DIY, then go for it.

I know what you mean Brian - that Ferrari I've been trying to build from the ground up just doesn't seem to compare to the real thing...

[lucey]

Originally Posted by GilWave

I know what you mean Brian - that Ferrari I've been trying to build from the ground up just doesn't seem to compare to the real thing...

Damn kit cars!

DIY is more often GNTTL .... got no time to live.

[Astromann]

Originally Posted by lucey

Very nice.


As far as "other manufacturers" I think it's important to remember that everything seems "too expensive" when we can't manage to afford it! If you can DIY, then go for it.

Yes I know what you mean and I agree with that.
However (and I wont say who) but there are name manufacturers out there that definitely fit into the category of "Charging like wounded bulls" using Chinese parts and falsely advertising their products as using USA built electronics etc...while using cheap caps etc...
I have seen this first hand and its pretty disheartening to see this practice going on.
It makes the honest ones jobs a lot harder.

[WunderBro Flo]

ubk,
sorry it seems we both come across more agressive as we were intending, I was not trying to run an attack on you, the bias thing was meant with a grin, no more, no less! I am not trying to mark you as a bad guy here, not at all, just showing that we are both prone to bias and that most probably in this thread, both our opinions will have lots of probability to carry lotsa "wrongness"....we simply will never find out!
peace man

Best,
Pat

[JCRockit]

UBK thanks for the demo, like the Burly brown sound. UR tune has a Neil Young vibe. Why not snap it to a Cripple Creek Ferry groove and throw some harp in it. Go retro folk , Gretches through Fender Vibros. HA

[imaginaryday]

Originally Posted by binarybob

00100010 01010101 01000010 01001011 00100010 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01000010 01101001 01101100 01101100 01111001 00100000 01001101 01100001 01111001 01110011 00100000 01101111 01100110 00100000 01000111 01100101 01100001 01110010 01110011 01101100 01110101 01110100 01111010 00101110 00100000

may he rest in peace

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by u b k

NICE! alright, i've decided to list my most favorite and least favorite things about each mix. the cool thing is that every mix gave me cues to how i would approach something differently because the treatment strikes me as particularly creative, or effective, or both. every mix was in some way inspiring.

bcgood, well, on first blush i thought your mix sounded extremely similar to mine. but a moment into it i realized that you actually nailed it in a way i didn't. you made sure every single moment was dialed, every placement came and went in exactly the way it wanted. my hat is off to you, i bow to your superior kung fu. if i had to come up with something i like least, it'd be the fact that i like your mix better than mine.

well done everyone!


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[JCRockit]

Originally Posted by imaginaryday

may he rest in peace

May who rest in peace ???

[rectifier]

B. Mays.

[JCRockit]

Oh the Oxyclean guy ? ok

[billyindonesia]

Originally Posted by WildCowboys

4 - Interesting for people like me who want the coloration but not the ADC (at least not for that price).
Pat

thumbsup im with you thumbsup