Otari MTR90mkII or MCI JH24?

[Benmrx]

So, even though there's still a few things to work out, it's looking like there's another local engineer/producer that's going to move his stuff into my space.

There's one area though where I'm not sure what to do. I've got an Otari MTR90mkII that I use, and love. However, he's got an MCI JH24. My machine (although it works great) definatly has issues. The main problem is that I need to get the supply side swing arm assembly replaced. It basically means that from time to time I've got to tweak a gain pot to keep the arms from jumping. His machine apparently runs pretty well, and he knows how to maintain it.

I've always used Otari tape machines, with the occasional Studer, but never used an MCI machine before.

Any opinions on which machine we should keep in the control room?

I'm going to push for an agreement that his gear stays here for 2 years. Part of me wants to just use his machine, and take the opportunity to sell mine and put the money towards a PTHD system. I am definately going to sell my 24 channel Soundcraft Ghost, and make room for his Neotek Series III desk. So, between the Otari and the Soundcraft, I could probably get pretty close to an HD system off ebay. It would just scare me a little to not actually own a tape machine or console of any kind.

Any thoughts?

[ecolleno]

Somebody who repair tape recorder, told me that Studer and Otari was a very good machines and they have been built very easy to repair. But, he told me a MCI tape was a hell inside.

MCI are not easy machines to repair. Probably the sounds is OK, like Studer or your Otari, but I would keep Otari mtr90.

[Kim Bjäle]

I`ve never had to operate a tape machine myself but a friend of mine told me that the MCI/Sony machines are the most reliable and sounds fat (you can still by spare parts), don`t know bout the insides though. The sound was really a killer! I mixed the material and the sound was modern to my ears./ Kim

[druhms]

What kind of music do you typically work on? The MCI is going to have that grungy fat rock sound and the Otari is going to be cleaner. The Otari is more reliable and stays up to par a little easier than the MCI. MCI's will require more maintenance. Which machine has better heads? Are you going to be tracking drums and bass to 2" then bouncing to Pro Tools or are you keeping the project on 2" the whole way through?
Druhms

[andsonic]

I would stay with the Otari. The tension arm thing is a known issue with the Mk2's. I would fix the one you have and keep an eye out for a Mk3. A studio I work in recently replaced their mk2 with a mk3. the mk3 doesn't let the tape fly off at the end of the reel. It senses the amount of tape on the reel. The transport should have a lot less wear on it.

Otari's are well laid out for tech work.

BTW... the mk3 I've used came from the studio where "The English
Patient" was mixed. Now I can say that I've recorded on "the English Patient" machine.

[Benmrx]

Thanks for the input guys.

I would stay with the Otari. The tension arm thing is a known issue with the Mk2's. I would fix the one you have and keep an eye out for a Mk3. A studio I work in recently replaced their mk2 with a mk3. the mk3 doesn't let the tape fly off at the end of the reel. It senses the amount of tape on the reel. The transport should have a lot less wear on it.

Yeah, the tension arm thing shouldn't be too big a deal, especially since I know someone with an MTR90mkII that will sell me parts, and I've already asked him if I could snag that swing arm assembly from his machine. I'd love an mk3, but too be honest, I need to fix too many weak spots in my studio before looking at purchasing another tape machine.

What kind of music do you typically work on? The MCI is going to have that grungy fat rock sound and the Otari is going to be cleaner. The Otari is more reliable and stays up to par a little easier than the MCI. MCI's will require more maintenance. Which machine has better heads? Are you going to be tracking drums and bass to 2" then bouncing to Pro Tools or are you keeping the project on 2" the whole way through?

I work on all kinds of music, but mainly indie rock stuff. No commercials, classical and very little "heavy rock" stuff. But then again, I'm not the only engineer. I do own the studio though, but try to get everyones opinion that works there on this kind of stuff before making any real decisions.

From what I've heard, the MCI is very service friendly (at least from the guy that owns it), he's definatly more tech minded than I am too.

Most (99%) of all the projects that happen here, use tape only for basic tracking. Unless it's a "writing in the studio" project, then it all goes straight to pro tools, and sometimes I'll bounce the song to tape and do a couple overdubs there, then transfer back and line things up. No sync here.

Although the guy that owns the MCI will be doing his projects here now, and he doesn't even own a computer at all. Meaning his projects are 100% analog, unless you count digital reverbs/delays. So he's used to his MCI + Neotek combo for his way of working. I'm used to the Otari + Pro Tools combo. It seems that using the MCI wouldn't affect me nearly as much as the Otari would affect him.

As far as which machine has better heads......I really don't know, and that's definatly something I'd like to find out.

It's a hard decision for sure, although I'm leaning much more towards the MCI, simply because it means I could still have a 2" machine here to use, and I could sell mine to put towards an HD system. And that if/when the time comes for him to pull his gear out, I can look for a newer tape machine. Not sure if I mentioned it, but my Otari is a "B-Lot" machine, so it's a very early model mk2.

BTW: did MCI make 2" 16 track headstacks for these machines

Thanks again, and please keep the opinions/info comin'

[analogtodd]

I'm sure I've seen a JH24 with a 2" 16 track head...

[RedWallStudio]

Wow, there is quite a bit of info here... and mis-info too.

First of all, Otari's can be tough if not tougher to get parts for. MCI's were built here in the U.S. and were built with non-proprietary parts. Otari's on the other hand were built in Japan and if you need a genuine Otari part, good luck. I have a two track MTR10 that I had to pay 125.00 for a single IC chip from Otari... I also waited 5 weeks for the part.

My MCI JH 16/24 has had issues as well, but all were easy to fix with parts that were readily available.

As far as sound, Im not quite sure what "cleaner" means, but my MCI has a totally fat, round and smooth sound.... not harsh at all. I've tracked on a MTR II 90 before and I thought that machine had a much narrower sound. The Otari's also have a crazy amount of IC's. My 16/24 has some IC's but its transformer in and out.

What it really boils down to is that you can get a great MCI or a great Otari, but odds are that you will get one that needs work. They aren't making these any more, and the people that have good ones (like me) are not going to part with them for the world.

[idylldon]

To reinforce what RedWallStudio said,

Originally Posted by ecolleno

Somebody who repair tape recorder, told me that Studer and Otari was a very good machines and they have been built very easy to repair. But, he told me a MCI tape was a hell inside.

MCI machines aren't "hell inside." There are a few known areas that need some attention, but they are easy to work on and the parts are readily available, and many of the parts are standard stuff that can be easily obtained from Mouser, Digikey, etc.

MCI are not easy machines to repair. Probably the sounds is OK, like Studer or your Otari, but I would keep Otari mtr90.

Sorry, but I don't agree at all. I just finished recapping my entire JH24 and found it to be a breeze to work on. All the channel cards, daughter boards, and motherboards are easy to remove and work on. Also, for a small yearly fee, Steve Sadler, perhaps the most knowledgeable MCI tech in the world, offers unlimited email and phone support. With his help, I've learned to set up the transport and do many other adjustments.

All of these older decks will have issues that'll need to be dealt with. I haven't heard of any, including Studer (price any Studer parts lately?), that don't have problems occasionally. Part of owning one of these "relics" is either learning to work on them yourself or have deep enough pockets to hire someone to do it for you. Personally, with Steve's help, I haven't found anything on my MCI that requires, as Fletcher would say, "rocket surgery" to repair.

YMMV.

Cheers,
--
Don

[RedWallStudio]

I couldn't agree more.

Steve Sadler should pay me a commission for the amount of free pub he gets from me. He is absolutely the best there is when it comes to MCI tape machines and consoles.

Yeah, you need to know how these machines work to appreciate them, and to not have your life be a total living hell. This ain't the world of tapping the space bar, so if you are afraid to get your hands dirty or cringe at the idea of banging on the side of a piece of gear to get it to go into transport mode, take a pass now....and have fun with your narrow digital world.

[drBill]

The reason I chose MCI when I bought a deck back in the day was for the fat (phat? ) sound. I much prefered them over the otari, and even over the studer - although if I could have afforded a studer, I probably would have opted that direction. The MCI is kind of a tank compared to a studer, but the sound is great. I've passed the torch and Idylldon now has my machine but I miss her sometimes.....

[RedWallStudio]

And YES, there are definitely 2" headstacks for MCI's. Talk to John French at JRF, I'm sure he can hook you up.

[Drumsound]

I gotta agree with the floks above. MCIs are simple machines and most things that go wrong with them are pretty well known and often fixed cheaply.

They also sound great. I've got a JH24 from the last porduction run and it's only had 2 problems in about 3.5 years and one of them was because I did something stupid, I fogot to plug the PSU fan back in after doing the monthly PSU vacume. My guy who really knows the JH fixed the PSU and had it back to me in 4 days, including shipping to and from.

[numrologst]

??? to some of the posts

The JH24 is one of the most easily serviceable machines. Parts are readily available in a pinch.

Yes there were some JH machines that were problematic, but they were eventually redesigned and a lot of the problem machines were updated. The problem machines had red sockets that connected the IC's... I believe the problem years were 77-79 or something like that.

I'm no electronics buff, but I can fix my Jh24 when a problem arises. I still think if you do a lot of tape tracking, you shouldn't rely on just one machine to full the load of your work.

The JH24 has a great sound to it. Some audiophile engineers dis the JH24 because of its funky response curve. The Otari MTR-100 and Studer A8** have much flatter responses and to some extent the MTR-90.

But of course, we can't only rely on freq response curves to make gear decisions.

I like to use the jh24 on some things, but sometimes I prefer the sound of our studer 820.

The answer to your question is easy: Keep the MTR and buy the JH24. Fix up both machines and give them even wear... You don't want to rock the heads of one machine all the time... Eventually you will be without a machine for a month or two because you have to have them relapped... Then eventually you are buying new heads. Keep the 2 machines with even work when it makes sense

[Drumsound]

It does not take 2 months to get heads relapped. I believe JRF can do it within a week.

[numrologst]

last relap i had was 2 week turnaround.

1 week to JRF
2 weeks for them to get to it
1 weeks back to me

[sleestack]

Question: How do you ship an mci jh24? Lots of bubble wrap? Specially made shipping container? etc.. thanks

[RedWallStudio]

Pesonally, I woudn't ship them at all. I would go and pick it up. They are far too fragile to be put in the hands of some gorilla fork-lift or truck driver.

[numrologst]

When I got my JH24 in 2000, I used roadrunner. NY to Texas was $500.

It was wrapped up in bubble, on a palette w/ wood supports. It arrived fine, but it was risky.

Now that I know better, when I bought the studer I had Atlas special care division take care of it.

They bubbled it, then crated it.. Thats cost $500... Then it was a $1000 destination shipping charge. So $1500 in total. It arrived perfectly too.

[sleestack]

So you can forget sending a machine to a tech somewhere. It would be better to move to a city with a good tech. God what if you are in an area with no tech and little things go wrong every once in a while? I guess you'd have to take EE classes from your local Community college

[drBill]

I wouldn't ship a JH. Back in the day when A&M used to have probably a dozen of them, wheeling them from room to room would sometimes cause problems. The IC sockets were often the gremlin, but the machines are just not meant for a lot of bumpiing up and down abuse. Especially not to get it fixed. It would need maintainence again by the time it got back.

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by drBill

I wouldn't ship a JH. Back in the day when A&M used to have probably a dozen of them, wheeling them from room to room would sometimes cause problems. The IC sockets were often the gremlin, but the machines are just not meant for a lot of bumpiing up and down abuse. Especially not to get it fixed. It would need maintainence again by the time it got back.

the truth! my JH 16 (which is 24trk btw) don't like to be moved around at all so that may be an issue. I find the JH16 to be fatter than just about any tape machine due to the transformers (in and out for each track). It prolly has more to do with the sound than the actual "tape" path, ie, even if you just ran sound through it without hitting tape you notice a difference! Even better with tape tho', esp at 30 ips with no SR card nonsense.....

[numrologst]

if you don't live in an area where there is a good tech, and you can't fix it yourself... You just fly a good tech out... And it is usually cheaper than shipping the machine.

When I flew out a tech to do some work on my desk... It cost me $350 plane ticket round trip, $1500 in labor, and $200 in meals and transportation.

It really isn't hard to fix alot of what can go wrong with a JH24.

I've noticed that moving my JH24 around will kick it out of alignment, but it has never ever had a problem after being moved... I had it shipped NY to Texas... Then moved it 350 miles in texas 7 years later... 2 moves and nothing ever went wrong because it was moved.

Mine is a 1987 Sony Badged Jh24 for what its worth

[Benmrx]

Thanks for all the input. Luckily, there isn't any shipping of any tape machines going on here. Basically, another local engineer that had a nice set-up in his garage is moving all his stuff into my studio. Might have to rent a truck, but that's about it.

Originally Posted by numrologst

??? to some of the posts

The JH24 is one of the most easily serviceable machines. Parts are readily available in a pinch.

This goes with what I've been told. Which is obviously very good news.

The answer to your question is easy: Keep the MTR and buy the JH24. Fix up both machines and give them even wear... You don't want to rock the heads of one machine all the time... Eventually you will be without a machine for a month or two because you have to have them relapped... Then eventually you are buying new heads. Keep the 2 machines with even work when it makes sense

I wish we could, but there's just not enough room to keep both machines around.

I know what you mean about being without a machine though. I believe it was a little over a year ago that the power supply died on my MTR90mkII. I had to ship the power supply to Chicago to get fixed. It was about a month before the machine was back up and running. Which was indeed a shitty month, but I still got by.

I'm really looking forward to changing things up a bit too.

[Soundmanluke]

The studio I work in has a JH-24 and so far I haven't tried it out. Apparently it works fine but I've been a live soundguy for about 15 years and still pretty new to the studio thing. I have a good knowledge of Pro Tools but not of the tape machine. I wanna start using BAD though!
Can someone tell me how to get a hold of Steve Sadler?

[mcijh]

Try 615-242-0599......SS