PLEASE CRITIQUE MY MIX - mp3 sample included

[Rockman]

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Note: The mp3 sample has now been removed from post originator. Thanks for all those of you who helped on this thread.


Hi everyone,

Well.. this is a first for me. I've never posted a sample of my work on this forum previously. But I could sure use some valuable feedback from you pros out there (particularly those who do a lot of pop/rock). I eventually will post a few comments (and specific concerns I have) about the quality of my mixes. But first, I wanted to simply get your input up front.

I have created an mp3 (about 3 minutes long), which contains snippets of 4 songs. Each snippet starts around the pre-chorus, and goes through the chorus (or in one case, the bridge).

Thanks for listening, and for offering me your opinion. Please feel free to be brutally frank, and tell me what you think could use some improvement.



Rockman

[travisbrown]

The first thing that popped out to me (on my Macbook Pro speakers), was the snare in snippet two sounded a little outside the mix, esp. compared to the other tracks.

Everything else sounds pretty good (again, on my Macbook Pro speakers).

[Rockman]

Thanks for the input Travis. I agree with you about the snare. I'll have to fix that.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

[BLueROom]

All very well done man! Excellent work. Great performances and recording.

If I was going to get REALLY picky, I'd say the crash on the third song needs some work to get it to wash or blend better.

Nice!

[FreeToMIX]

not my style of music but it was mixed so good i listined to the whole thing i have nothing to say except for what the others said.. and maybe add a little low end to the snare imo thats it case closed Ill be in my study

[barryjohns]

Great Songs, Great Arrangement, Great Recording, Great Mixing, the only thing I would say is that the Snare is too loud in the 3rd song, it's too dominant. The singer could have benefited from some different Pre's on the vox, they all sound like the same pre, same mic. That's very subjective though.

[Rockman]

Thanks guys. I appreciate the input.

Barry, thanks for the kind words. Yea, I have a tendency to have the snare kinda loud... maybe a bit too much. I've been told that before. I like big drums (although they're not in style these days). Also, yea, the vocals were recorded using the same vocal chain. (limited budget reasons)

Freetomix... thanks for the tip about the snr. I will definitely consider beefing up the low end on it.

Blueroom.. thanks to you also. I'll take a listen to that crash.

Please keep the feedback coming. Thanks.

[barryjohns]

Tell us what your recording chain was.

What DAW?

Which Converters?

What Plugs?

What Outboard?

You get the idea.

Thanks,

Barry

[True North]

Those mixes sound very good.

There is nothing "wrong" with them per say - anything from me would really only be opinion as all the fundamentals are in place and the rest is all a matter of taste.

Case in point, I'm a drummer, snare level sounds good to me

Good work

[Daniel Antix]

wow great mixes, nice songs too... not my style but i can appriciate it.

i think the snare sounds great maybe turn it down only a touch. i'd also make the kick a little more present... just a little.

[Rockman]

Thanks True North and Daniel.. It's nice to know that even if the music isn't your "cuppa tea".. you can still listen objectively and offer your opinion.

Barry, the songs were recorded to Pro Tools Mix Plus (44.1 Khz), on OS 9. Those mixes are entirely ITB (except the lead vocal, which I'm running through a vintage LA-3A limiter).

The converter is an Apogee Rosetta 800.

Every instrument was recorded through the same Brent Averill 1084 mic pres (once again, limited budget, so no additional pres available). The vocal was recorded with a Neumann M149 tube mic (then into the Brent Averill, then into the LA-3A, then into the Apogee).

The drums, bass and gtrs also ran through a Distressor (after the mic pre).

Plugs are mostly Waves Renaissance EQs and compressors (including on the 2 bus). I also used the Cranesong Phoenix plug on several tracks.

The only reverb used was a hardware Lexicon 300.

One of my concerns regarding these mixes is that they sound a little too "clean" to my ears. Not enough of that "grainy" rock sound. Also, I don't think the stereo image is quite wide enough (although I have some of the guitars panned hard left and right).

I have been comtemplating investing in an Alan Smart C1 compressor for my 2 buss (to replace the Waves Renn Comp). Does anyone have one of those? or have any experience with them? Do you think that the C1 will give me that grainy glue, and somewhat "finished record" sound that I"m looking for?

And also... while we're at it... where could I find a C1 these days? Do they still make 'em? (I'm located in greater Los Angeles).

I look forward to more feedback.

[Absolute]

Cant believe no one mentioned how utterly destroyed the drums are by bad compression

Its not like the're just compressed too hard.....they are just so small

The bass is also in the same boat. There is no power there. You have just limited the bandwidth too much

The vocals sound great. The freq balance sounds good(execpt for bass). To me, your only a few moves away from a real nice mix.

[peeder]

Without reading any of the other comments...

The bus compressor(s) is set to give great fullness and presence on the quieter sections and then starts clamping down too much in the louder choruses. This is so common a mix flaw that many people might not even think of it as a flaw! But if you clamp down that much, when it goes out on radio you will just bleach out and have nothing pleasant to hear.

The cure for that isn't to get rid of the nice compression on the quieter sections but instead to, one way or another, keep the compressor from clamping down too much anywhere. ITB you can automate, OTB you might have a volume leveler either before your main compressor or on its sidechain, or you could even "ride fader" (e.g. threshold/makeup or send level) if you're deft. You can also splice, getting each section sounding right and then assembling.

The voice is also up high enough that it's pulling everything else down, creating an audible ducking effect. This is helping intelligibility but it's at the cost of blend.

Compression is to the 00's what reverb was to the 80's. People can't get enough of it but at least I have had enough by now thank you.

In general I find there's too much information in the upper mids, there is decent lowend but it seems you're terrified of the "mud" frequencies and are avoiding them too much. The result lacks body and is a bit fatiguing and unsatisfying to me.

The production is excellent, although not particularly innovative. I think you're right to ask because these deserve a bit of tweaking on the mix.

[Rockman]

Absolute and Peeder, I appreciate your frank opinions. That's why I'm here (on this post) after all... to try and learn what I might have missed in my mixes, being too close to them and all... I'm still in the learning process, and I hope to learn a few valuable things here...

Yes, there is a certain amount of compression on these mixes. I guess I might have to re-visit my settings, and make sure it's not over-done.

Also, I agree that the vocal might be a bit too loud in the mix. I struggle with that as well... trying to get it to sit in the mix properly. I gotta work on that.

Thanks again. Please keep the feedback coming guys!

[peeder]

We're all in the learning process.

[Andreas G]

I think it's a really nice work! But I have to agree with peeder, overall it sounds a bit to squashed and the upper mids are a bit annoying. Just out of curiosity, where are your levels peaking... say from vocals, snare and kick? Perhaps you drive all a bit too hot?

Andreas

[Mike Caffrey]

My first reaction is that they all sound pretty good and that you know what you're doing to the point where there aren't any real fundamental flaws, jsut taste differences - this is from listening on laptop speakers though.

The only comment I have is that the snare sounds like it's compressed too fast. It's got decent girth/width and there's enough high end to hear the snares, but it's rouded to the point where there's no crack. I bet if you make the attack time 2-3 times as slow, maybe more, it will have far more of an edge. It will probably need to come down a little too.

Beyond that, there were a couple of distored guitars and an organ that I would have likde to hear more of - volume, not EQ.

That might affect it's feeling of being too clean that you mention. It strikes me that the genera of the music dictacts that it shold be kikd of clean, but if you feel that texturally and sonicalls it's too clean, then try bringing chanign that through bringing up some of the dirtier instruments. Or maybe slow down or get rid of your stereo buss compression or increase the threshold. On these laptop speakers, I'm not hearin it react to the band at all, making me think it's super fast or being triggered by the vocals.

[u b k]

Originally Posted by Rockman

Please feel free to be brutally frank, and tell me what you think could use some improvement.

well, i'll be frank but hopefully not brutal.

frankly, it sounds like every other mix that's popular right now and for the last 8 years or so. the mix does nothing to distinguish the song from a million other such songs, nothing to make it in any way remarkable or unique, and imo that's a bummer. you're clearly a gifted engineer, and a lot of talent is behind that whole production.

so by modern pop standards they're great mixes, and they rest firmly in the middle of a sea of equally great, equally safe, risk-free mixes.

i'm with peeder, the use of compression has reached a place that bores me to tears. instruments, sounds, they have a life, they breathe. all this compression, it sucks that life right out and the result is, for me at least, uninspiring.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[bcgood]

Overall those mixes sound pretty good. One thing that I miss in these mixes is more air. Also the highs sound kind of crispy and undefined, (Listening through my Sennheiser HD 280 headphones). I would like to hear smoother, cleaner sounding highs. I do think the mixes would benefit from less compression. The bass frequencies also don't sound beefy enough to me. I'm sure a good ME could bring these up to the next level though. this sounds like a pretty talented artist so obviously that helps... Keep up the great work!

[Koed]

..great mix. It does however sound like you use compression and limiting on allmost every single track and buss. I know this is considered a 'style' by some, but I'm not too fond of it. It makes the mix sound small(er) because of the lack of dynamics.
My 2 cents would be; compress less and later, watch your gain staging and try to create 'room' for the lead vocal. Again, this might be a matter of taste.

[Rockman]

Originally Posted by Andreas G

I think it's a really nice work! But I have to agree with peeder, overall it sounds a bit to squashed and the upper mids are a bit annoying. Just out of curiosity, where are your levels peaking... say from vocals, snare and kick? Perhaps you drive all a bit too hot?

Andreas

Thanks for your input Andreas. Yea, I also struggle a bit with the high mids (they used to be much worse)... so maybe I need to tame those down a bit. Or maybe that can be done overall in mastering?

Regarding my levels, generally I apply what I've learned from Paul Frindle. I record as hot as I can without clipping... and then, I insert a trim plug and decrease the level by a good 10 dB or so (depends on what plugs I use, etc). So I think my levels are "safe" from harshness, if I did the job right.

[Rockman]

Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey

My first reaction is that they all sound pretty good and that you know what you're doing to the point where there aren't any real fundamental flaws, jsut taste differences - this is from listening on laptop speakers though.

The only comment I have is that the snare sounds like it's compressed too fast. It's got decent girth/width and there's enough high end to hear the snares, but it's rouded to the point where there's no crack. I bet if you make the attack time 2-3 times as slow, maybe more, it will have far more of an edge. It will probably need to come down a little too.

Beyond that, there were a couple of distored guitars and an organ that I would have likde to hear more of - volume, not EQ.

That might affect it's feeling of being too clean that you mention. It strikes me that the genera of the music dictacts that it shold be kikd of clean, but if you feel that texturally and sonicalls it's too clean, then try bringing chanign that through bringing up some of the dirtier instruments. Or maybe slow down or get rid of your stereo buss compression or increase the threshold. On these laptop speakers, I'm not hearin it react to the band at all, making me think it's super fast or being triggered by the vocals.

P.S. I don't know how to use quotes from multiple posts and paste them into my own post... so sorry for the several back-to-back posts from me...



Mike,

Thanks for your comments as well. I"ll definitely look at my attack settings and see what's going on there. In regard to raising the level of some of the distorted instruments... that's something I struggle with as well... because as much as I like louder guitars in the mix, I feel they take away from the impact of the drums. So it's a delicate balance... unless I'm doing something very wrong.

Cheers

[Rockman]

Originally Posted by u b k

well, i'll be frank but hopefully not brutal.

frankly, it sounds like every other mix that's popular right now and for the last 8 years or so. the mix does nothing to distinguish the song from a million other such songs, nothing to make it in any way remarkable or unique, and imo that's a bummer. you're clearly a gifted engineer, and a lot of talent is behind that whole production.

so by modern pop standards they're great mixes, and they rest firmly in the middle of a sea of equally great, equally safe, risk-free mixes.

i'm with peeder, the use of compression has reached a place that bores me to tears. instruments, sounds, they have a life, they breathe. all this compression, it sucks that life right out and the result is, for me at least, uninspiring.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

Ubk, your input is appreciated as well. I understand what you're saying about the somewhat generic sound of my mixes. Honestly, I wasn't trying to re-invent the wheel. I just wanted to make a good sounding pop/rock record. To be more precise, I was trying to find a delicate balance between a sound that is considered "current" by today's radio standards... yet a sound that is also a bit more dynamic, in terms of having more drums in the mix. I dunno, maybe I failed at that (since quite a few people commented that the compression was over-done).

In any case, I appreciate your opinion.

bcgood and koed... I appreciate your as well. I'm taking notes here.

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[Jake Dempsey]

Sounds great. Recording and production quality are top 40. Really nice.

[RinnyTin]

Other than the balance on the drum kit, the mixes are fine in terms of balances and imaging, arrangements, it sounds like you have everything nearly in place.

I know some people think vocals beaten to death with AT = contemporary sound, but to my ears your pitch correction is heavy handed in places.

Not sure what you mean by current, but you might think about more a more open and ambient sound from the drums and less long reverbs and echo-y out of phase strats, to me it sounds dated.

Sorry if this seems harsh all just IMO re: the last 5% of your production process. First 95% sounds very well done.

[Farout]

I think you did a good job on the mix of these tunes.
The tunes are cool, too. Nice vocals, and instruments.
Thanks for sharing with us.

[Rockman]

Originally Posted by Jake Dempsey

Sounds great. Recording and production quality are top 40. Really nice.

Thanks Jake!

Originally Posted by RinnyTin

Other than the balance on the drum kit, the mixes are fine in terms of balances and imaging, arrangements, it sounds like you have everything nearly in place.

I know some people think vocals beaten to death with AT = contemporary sound, but to my ears your pitch correction is heavy handed in places.

Not sure what you mean by current, but you might think about more a more open and ambient sound from the drums and less long reverbs and echo-y out of phase strats, to me it sounds dated.

Sorry if this seems harsh all just IMO re: the last 5% of your production process. First 95% sounds very well done.

RinnyTin... not harsh at all. I appreciate your input. Yea, some of the vocals were definitely tuned... maybe a little too much. I'll have to have another listen.

Originally Posted by Farout

I think you did a good job on the mix of these tunes.
The tunes are cool, too. Nice vocals, and instruments.
Thanks for sharing with us.

Thanks Farout!

Thanks for all the feedback guys. Keep it coming! I'm learning a lot here.

[Trev@Circle]

First of all I should say I'm listening to this in the studio (it's relevant because it's a much more critical environment). I have to say up front that I'm personally somewhere between Mike Caffrey and UBK. To be more precise (and hopefully this will help you to pick it up yourself if you haven't already) the compression effect can probably heard at its worst on the snare and cymbals on the 2nd track (where the vox are "there's something deep inside when the going gets's grim...[up to] the strong survive")

That said there's a fat chance that Joe Public would even notice this on his ipod or his macbook speakers... It's absolutely right that you should be taking advice and improving your mixes but if these ones have already gone out... don't sweat it.

[True North]

Originally Posted by Rockman

Ubk, your input is appreciated as well. I understand what you're saying about the somewhat generic sound of my mixes. Honestly, I wasn't trying to re-invent the wheel. I just wanted to make a good sounding pop/rock record. To be more precise, I was trying to find a delicate balance between a sound that is considered "current" by today's radio standards... yet a sound that is also a bit more dynamic, in terms of having more drums in the mix. I dunno, maybe I failed at that (since quite a few people commented that the compression was over-done).

In any case, I appreciate your opinion.

bcgood and koed... I appreciate your as well. I'm taking notes here.

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To me the songs and the arrangements, while well written ,were for lack of a better word, generic sounding.

I agree with UBK that the mixes themselves don't really impart any individuality or signature to the music but that wasn't what you were going for. Judging by the instrumentation and the arrangements I am not so sure that the writer/performers (is it you ?) were looking for that type of mix.

They are good and professional sounding Rock/Pop mixes, goal accomplished.

[norman_nomad]

I'm generally with UBK on this one.

If you're going to drum replace I'd prefer more velocity layers for better dynamics..

You could stoke the low mids on the bass to fill up the hole and give the mixes a bit more energy.

I'd also love to hear an analog buss compressor on this mix...

All-in-all. Good work. Not everyone can do the modern sound this well. It's clean and vocal driven, which works for this kind of music.