clients beating down prices - how low do you go?

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by WildCowboys

here is the situation...
been asked to make an offer to write/produce/engineer & master 4 songs for a company. on top they want the rights to use if for almost anything except advertising spots, meaning they will use it for telephone, web, events and cd mailings.

i made them an offer that included studio time (4 days per song), my work as a composer&producer plus a fee for the rights.

they say thanks for the offer, but the maximum they have is about 45% less than what I was asking for. I told them that if I agree to their offer, they would pay a standard rental fee for each studio day. my work as a composer and producer, as well as the rights would be free, no money for that whatsoever. and yeahm forgot the mastering. free as well. Have not heard back from them yet, but let´s see...


I was wondering how much this is a common practice these days. clienst pay a normal per-day rental fee and expect you to throw in all your other skills and work for free? it seems like a pity that I can do more than just rent out and operate a studio. my skills as a writer&producer are taken for granted (and for free if I agree to do it for what they offer)....

what are your experiences & how do you usually react in such a situation?

Rock on!
Pat

I usually quote a price and if they counter offer I'll come back with a
price inbetween. If they reject that I'll just take the their original counter offer.
Unless I'm too busy and I would just pass on the job which is rare. Only happened twice for me. There is so much competition in my area you can't get greedy.

For the job you described I would charge about 2 grand if there is creative writing invloved. If it was just straight production/enginnering I'd charge about a grand for four days work. If I have to bring in musicians it would be higher of course. If I can play all the insrtuments I don't try to price gouge

Maybe your price is high?

[5down1up]

those lowballer jobs suck ! but sometimes you gotta do it, sadly ! giving the rights away is kinda like blackmailing. no serious company would ask you to do so, cause theres a LOT of money in those rights.

if you dont need the money ( which most often isnt the case ) turn em down. the problem is, if you did it one time for that amount they will come back and start the same shit again. its better than nothing, i hear ya !

the attitude that they want to have everything and not paying anything for it, is going on my nervs. but probably its just a poker game and you have to play a lil bit to suite your financial interrests.

the only thing thats fair, is that you treat it the same way they do it. just drag & drop and dont worry about your personal vision or the reputation of your name.
tell em a number and do every piece in 4 hours. thats what they want, thats what they should get and working this way, you make o.k money.

good luck !

[WunderBro Flo]

Originally Posted by allencollins

For the job you described I would charge about 2 grand if there is creative writing invloved.
Maybe your price is high?

Thanks for your input! 4 Songs for 2 grand? You would really charge that little?
How long does it take you to write, pre-produce, record vocals and mix and master one song? I am not talking about 30 second jingles, I am talking about real songs, intro, verses, choruses, bridges...under 4 full studio days per song is not possible if it is supposed to sound like something professional, at least in my opinion. 2 grand would mean 500.- per song, divided though 4 days that´s 125.- per day for studio, creative fee and rights. that´s not even paying my bills...
maybe I misinterpreted your reply and you meant 2 grand per song....
otherwise you are right, compared to such a price I am expensive

Rock on!
Pat

[5down1up]

what " kind " of songs are you talking about ?

[WunderBro Flo]

popsongs with an electronic/loungy/house flavor...the songs are supposed to be 4 minute pieces each...one female vocalist is going to sing in each track, so I planned 2 days for writing and producing the music for one tune, 1 day for recording and editing the vocals and another one to finish the production and mix...times 4 for four songs...
rock on!
Pat

[wehateyourhate]

why not write and produce the music element at home? cutting your studio costs for two days per song would certainly help you save some cash. you still get paid for your work but don't have to cover any costs to do so. just my .02

[WunderBro Flo]

Originally Posted by wehateyourhate

why not write and produce the music element at home? cutting your studio costs for two days per song would certainly help you save some cash. you still get paid for your work but don't have to cover any costs to do so. just my .02

doing work at home does not save me cash, it just leaves my studio empty and me without my tools that I need for writing and producing...it is my studio afterall, I do not have to pay an external studio (then it would make sense) for the job.

Rock on!
Pat

[sahiaman]

A huge part of this business is about the art of negotiating. Its all about getting a win-win contract so you never have to devalue your services.

Check out Effective Negotiating by Dr. Chester Karrass. I urge everyone here to attend one of this seminars. I think he is in San Deigo on the 9th and 10th.

If you do, not only do you get some invaluable strategies but you also get books and cds when you attend. I still have my cds and sometimes pop them in before negotiating to refresh.

Negotiation seminars and negotiating skills training programs from Karrass

[lowfreq33]

You can't let people talk you down from your rate just because they're cheap. Your rate is your rate. Period. If they don't want to pay it they should find someone who's not as good. I doubt you'd be able to make a living if you were overcharging, obviously your clients are by and large satisfied and feel they got their money's worth. Occasionally I might give someone a discount if they're going to be giving me a lot of work, like a few months worth. For 4 songs it just isn't worth it, especially if it's a work for hire. Because then they're going to expect the same thing every time. Then other people are going to expect a similar deal. Anytime you take this sort of deal you're effectively lowering the perceived value of your services. Maybe there's a compromise somewhere? Like maybe you take the amount they're offering, but they only get two songs. Really what they're doing is trying to haggle with you, and you're not selling used cars here. Lowball offers like this usually get the standard "Well, I have other clients vying for my time right now, and they're willing to pay me my full rate, so I'm going to have to decline." You have to let them know that they really don't have much bargaining power here, and that you don't really need their business (even if it isn't true). It's all about their perception. When I was starting out I worked with a bunch of bands for little or no money, and while the experience was valuable, none of those artists ever showed any appreciation for my work, or for the great deal I gave them. How can someone value something that was given to them for free? You set the value for your services, not the client.

Of course, if turning this down means that you'll miss a mortgage payment, you might have to bite the bullet and do it. If you do I'd get them to sign a confidentiality agreement as to the rate. You don't need them running around town shooting their mouth off about what a great deal they got, and then everyone else thinks they can lowball you too.

[deuc647]

if you NEED the work just try to get the most out of it, if you dont, fuk em, everyone wants more for less today. The only thing that sux is that if you do this job, you might think you work is worth what you were paid and start low balling yourself in the future.

[tidepool]

If a client says your rate (for whatever you do) is too high by 45%, you need to either re-think your rates or look for better-paying customers. If you're truly working your rear off to supply the goods at your stated rate, it sounds like they are low-balling you.

[5down1up]

if you got the balls and nothing to lose & a sense of humour which i dont doubt that you have those skills :

sell those morons some reason demo songs ! worth a try

[psycho_monkey]

I think allencollins said $2k for ONE song - he mentioned 4 days work (or $1k for production/engineering).

I once got paid £1k for 8 seconds of music buyout...that's possibly the most I've ever been paid....it did take about 2 days of revisions though!

[sahiaman]

Originally Posted by lowfreq33

If you do I'd get them to sign a confidentiality agreement as to the rate. You don't need them running around town shooting their mouth off about what a great deal they got, and then everyone else thinks they can lowball you too.

I did that with one director who had a movie I absolutely loved but didn't have the funds for my full rate. I even looked at his budget and saw that he had no room to go higher. I had him sign a confidentiality agreement as to not disclose the rate and I told him why. His next movie I charged him my full rate and he didn't have a problem with it. Since then I have done several jobs for him and have been reccomened by him to other directors.

[jindrich]

get the job for what they pay and do the 4 songs in an afternoon with Apple's Soundtrack Pro 2 and all its billion GBs of bed tracks, loops, sampled instruments and phrases.
those guys wont tell the difference.

dont tell anybody though

PS: if you dont, somebody else will do it -on a Macbookpro in some cafeteria in a sunny afternoon, and will run happy to the bank with the check.

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by WildCowboys

Thanks for your input! 4 Songs for 2 grand? You would really charge that little?
How long does it take you to write, pre-produce, record vocals and mix and master one song? I am not talking about 30 second jingles, I am talking about real songs, intro, verses, choruses, bridges...under 4 full studio days per song is not possible if it is supposed to sound like something professional, at least in my opinion. 2 grand would mean 500.- per song, divided though 4 days that´s 125.- per day for studio, creative fee and rights. that´s not even paying my bills...
maybe I misinterpreted your reply and you meant 2 grand per song....
otherwise you are right, compared to such a price I am expensive

Rock on!
Pat

I can do a song in one day if it's a jingle or a simple 'theme' type of tune and the client developed the concept. It depends. If they want massive string arrangements it takes an extra day. It depends I guess. I spoke too soon I'm not sure what the true scope of your paticular project is.

[wehateyourhate]

Originally Posted by WildCowboys

doing work at home does not save me cash, it just leaves my studio empty and me without my tools that I need for writing and producing...it is my studio afterall, I do not have to pay an external studio (then it would make sense) for the job.

Rock on!
Pat

missed that point...

[Dopamine]

Based on my experiences recently, and on recent threads, it seems our craft is getting more devalued by the day. I'm in a bad mood--- sick of dealing with these lowball clients.

Vent over.

[videoteque]

I bet if you had ask twice or half what you asked, they would have come out with the same 45% discount...

I try to ask twice what I would be confortable receiving, they are always happy when you make discounts!!!