The Label gave us 6 g's to make the new album

[Horsemouth]

Hey Guys,
Love the board, i've been reading it for years. I'm a drummer in a somewhat national indie rock band. Hopefully I can help answer more drum related stuff in the future.

My question is this. Our label is offering us 6 g's to do whatever we want to record our next album. We want to buy some gear with it to track the majority of the album, maybe even drums. I have an 002 with a macbook pro and a few mics, but not quite enough to get much of a drum sound. I've got a beta 52, a few 57's and no overheads worth mentioning. I know great albums have been made for much less (like our first album) but we're looking to step up the sophistication of the sound on this one.

Any ideas? Thanks!

[lowfreq33]

Where do you guys live?

[Horsemouth]

Washington, DC

[lowfreq33]

Hmm. If you lived near me I was gonna make you an offer, but you're too far away for it to be cost effective.

[Chris]

You're the band not the engineer. I'll bet 6k will get you a lot better cd spent on an engineer and a producer while you play your music instead of spending it all on gear and being too pissed trying to figure out how to get the snare to crack like you want it to instead of rocking the **** out and making some kick ass music.

[idylldon]

You say that you're "looking to step up the sophistication of the sound on this one," so I'd spend that money tracking in a great room with great gear. You can get some pretty good deals on excellent rooms these days, so it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to buy a few pieces of gear and do the engineering/mixing/mastering yourself. Rehearse your tunes until they're down cold and then go into the studio. I'll bet for that kind of money you can get the whole thing done IF the band is well rehearsed and the songs are worked out before you walk in.

On the other hand, you could use a great studio to track the basic rhythm tracks and then do the overdubs somewhere less expensive. Depending on how many days it takes you to get the basic tracks done, you could have enough left over to get a decent pre and a mic or two. You'll then have that gear for the next project.

There are many paths to this waterfall. It's up to you to figure out which one is the best for this particular journey.

That's my $0.02.

Cheers,
--
Don

[Horsemouth]

Thanks for the opinions guys. It seems the rest of the band is pretty damn set on the idea that we get some gear to keep to record much of the album with. They are pretty cool with the idea of recording the drums in an actual room, but I really like the idea of having a nice simple little drum recording rig that I can keep coming back to over the recording process. I'm sure we'll also end up mixing, and definitely mastering in a real studio.

I think what we want is some stuff we can experiment with over many many months. Just a few days in a studio doesn't seem to suit this projects style. Hmmmmm...

[strat+ac30]

Originally Posted by idylldon

Rehearse your tunes until they're down cold and then go into the studio. I'll bet for that kind of money you can get the whole thing done IF the band is well rehearsed and the songs are worked out before you walk in.

On the other hand, you could use a great studio to track the basic rhythm tracks and then do the overdubs somewhere less expensive. Depending on how many days it takes you to get the basic tracks done, you could have enough left over to get a decent pre and a mic or two. You'll then have that gear for the next project.

+1

Practice, practice, practice until you can all play the same exact notes/timing/phrasing each time after time, in your sleep. Once you're that tight, THEN go to a good studio with a good engineer and lay down all the rhythm tracks. Shouldn't take more than a couple days.

Don't buy a vocal chain of your own: rent one. (Depending on what you rent, it might be cost-effective to just stay in the studio.) While you're at the studio, audition mics to find which is best for your singer. Then rent mic+preamp+a/d converters and record using the digital input on your Digi002 piece. Be sure to read everything you can about acoustics and vocal recording - the room IS important but with the mobility of a laptop you should be able to find a decent spot.

Figure $500-$1000 for a good mastering job. I've used Brad Blackwood (Euphonic Masters) before - he's absolutely world-class and it's around $1k per CD. I'm sure you can find cheaper, but as with everything quality costs $$ and mastering isn't the step to skimp on.

[RCM - Ronan]

Is any one in your band a great engineer? Or even a solidly good engineer?

Since I make my living recording and mixing bands I am obviously biased on this issue, but I have seen so many artists try and go this route with really bad outcomes. They end up spending way more than they expect they will and 10 times the amount of time they expect and the end result is usually bad to mediocre. Of course there are exceptions to this, but it usually goes badly.

I would suggest that you practice like mad so the songs are super tight, and find a local engineer you really dig, with an OK studio and go bang out the record in 3 weeks or even less. Lots of classic albums were made in less than two weeks.

[BJohnston]

I'd definitely look at booking a couple of days at a mid to upper level studio with a quality engineer to do the drum tracks. Ideally you should find an engineer and/or producer who will do your project justice. I'd say that's your major ingredient. You need somebody who knows tones and the quality of performance. Believe me sometimes producing/engineering your own stuff can end up in a disaster. It's hard to keep objectivity...especially when your trying to capture a moment while worrying about technical difficulties...etc.
Budgetting is the name of the game. In this day and age there a million ways to skin a cat.

B

[Horsemouth]

I'm the best engineer in my band, and I'm a pretty good one. I have a degree in audio/video production with a pretty good amount of experience blah blah and I've engineered/produced a few other bands. But I have serious doubts about maintaining my sanity/creative energy while being the head engineer on the whole thing.

Should I just take on being the drummer engineer as a challenge I should be excited for, or am I just asking for trouble? I'm not prone to freakouts or anything, but I will run my brain into the ground if I'm not careful.

[Michael_Joly]

Originally Posted by Horsemouth

Thanks for the opinions guys. It seems the rest of the band is pretty damn set on the idea that we get some gear to keep to record much of the album with...I think what we want is some stuff we can experiment with over many many months. Just a few days in a studio doesn't seem to suit this projects style. Hmmmmm...

you know, since I started this OktavaMod thing I haven't made more than two licks of my own music in my studio. And since you asked about gear, not recording methods...

...I'd be willing to spot you a whole mess of modified ribbon mics and small and large diaphragm OktavaMod condensers if you'd be willing to blog about the process of using them on your project.

[chandlersonic]

Originally Posted by lowfreq33

Hmm. If you lived near me I was gonna make you an offer, but you're too far away for it to be cost effective.

I love your sig!! That was the funniest thing ever

Btw I agree with everyone who said that you should just go to a real studio unless one of you is a good engineer.

Just rehearse a lot so you're tight and record the thing live.

[Caleb m]

The band that I'm in had a few really bad experiences in Studios...so I went the route of buying a bunch of gear...I'm talking about 30k on gear. The guys are right...it takes a while to get the sounds you hear...even when you have the gear...as far as vocals...we lucked out...first mic we borrowed was it...and we got it...But drums are hard. You have to have the kit/ room/pres/mics and mood. We had to go to a VERY well know studio to get the sounds we wanted...rented a kit and about 10 snares. But looking back...I realize..you have to know what you want and be able to articulate it in the realm of audio...that takes some time with new equipment. I'm glad I got the gear, but it took about 2 years getting used to it. Well, that's my 2 cents...good luck!!!

[Paul Hammond]

I know Brian McTear from Miner Street, Cycle Sound, is pretty booked up but it sounds like you should track with him, overdub on your own, and master with us! That seems to be the winning combination in the indie world these days. All the Best, Paul Hammond

[strat+ac30]

Just saw your above post. In this case, here's what I'd do:
- Apogee Mini-Me ($800) or similar 2-channel ADC/DAC. This will provide you with two high-quality channels of I/O - enough to monitor and record a stereo source.
- ADAM A7 Monitors or Dynaudio BM5A Monitors ($1000). Do a search here to find out opinions.
- Seventh Circle Audio chassis with one N72 and one A12 built by Rob Wolford ($1250)
- Mics: you'll want a solid dynamics, a good ribbon, and one dynamite LDC. Given that you have a D112 and some 57's, here's what I'd choose: Shure SM7B ($325), Crowley & Tripp Naked Eye or AEA R92 ($825), used Soundelux U195 ($800).

TOTAL COST: $5000

This should give you at least 6 mic preamps (Digi has 4, right?) which is enough to demo drums at your place. Just about everything else will end up being 1-2 channels at a time, in which case you use your A+ path of N72/A12-->MiniMe and listening on Adam A7s.

You now have three different world-class microphones, and each of them have sound-shaping options for flexibility. The SM7B has a presence boost available; the ribbons have two sides with differing responses (back side is brighter); the U195 has a fat/normal switch.

If you have the cash or credit to swing it: also check out AT 40-series mics (4047, 4050, 4060) and the Shure KSM44. Same price ballpark, but I've used the U195 and know it sounds awesome. If you have a couple to audition on your singer's voice, that'd be best.

Save the extra $1000 to record drums in a nice studio once you're exactly sure of what you want. This might be cutting it close, you'll have to bring your A-game.

Once you've tracked drums, go back and re-record any tracks you need. Once you're done tracking, it's time to (and this will be the hard part) sell some/most of the gear you just bought. All of the above should hold value pretty well...you'll take a loss but it'll be less than if you rented the same thing.

You'll need the money to pay for mixing/mastering, so you have the question: use cheaper gear throughout and keep it, or use nicer gear but sell it at the end? (Hint: you can always buy cheaper gear afterwords - or, better yet, wait until your album is selling like hotcakes and use that money to buy your studio back.)

Never ever ever skimp on mixing or mastering for any serious record.

If you're dead-set on recording stuff yourself (and I understand this, but beware the dark side!) then this is the most cost-efficient way to do it that I know of.

Dave

[Tony Shepperd]

6 grand to do a record?
What exactly is your label bringing to the table?
IMO, you might be signing away a lot of future income, for a little bit of money now.

[Drumsound]

Originally Posted by Horsemouth

I'm the best engineer in my band, and I'm a pretty good one. I have a degree in audio/video production with a pretty good amount of experience blah blah and I've engineered/produced a few other bands. But I have serious doubts about maintaining my sanity/creative energy while being the head engineer on the whole thing.

Should I just take on being the drummer engineer as a challenge I should be excited for, or am I just asking for trouble? I'm not prone to freakouts or anything, but I will run my brain into the ground if I'm not careful.

This post really hits the nail on the head to what others are suggesting. Often when my band records in my pro room I try to get a friend to help me get the drums happening (I'm the drummer).

Do the basics elsewhere, then you'll be able to engineer the rest without playing and engineering at the same time. You said you're in D.C. check out Inner Ear.

[Windtaken]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

6 grand to do a record?
What exactly is your label bringing to the table?
IMO, you might be signing away a lot of future income, for a little bit of money now.

I am thinking the same thing...what is the cost of you getting $6k?

[Switchcraft]

I agree with Tony. Six grand to do a record is a bit cheap, even by todays standards. If you already had a private studio and some deep experience, it might work, but I am afraid you might end up with a mediocre recording if you try to do it all alone.

either way, I am sure you reviewed your contract thoroughly so that is not my business.

I would track drums and guitars in a 60-80$ an hour room. 12 songs, 36 hours...

Buy an apia2d and a 1K bock audio mic (the old U195?), sm57 and record bass (DI), additional guitars and vocals at home.

That would seem to be the option that would get you the best results.

best of luck.


ooops, I forgot about mixing and mastering...
ouch.

[KEL]

Originally Posted by rcm

Is any one in your band a great engineer? Or even a solidly good engineer?

Since I make my living recording and mixing bands I am obviously biased on this issue, but I have seen so many artists try and go this route with really bad outcomes. They end up spending way more than they expect they will and 10 times the amount of time they expect and the end result is usually bad to mediocre. Of course there are exceptions to this, but it usually goes badly.

I would suggest that you practice like mad so the songs are super tight, and find a local engineer you really dig, with an OK studio and go bang out the record in 3 weeks or even less. Lots of classic albums were made in less than two weeks.

I'll add to this good advice that in addition to engineering, someone to produce the project is super valuable. I don't know a lot of bands/artists that are good at self editing and quality control. The results of self producing(sans experience doing so) are generally lots of questionable notes, phrasing and rhythmic issues.

[dropblacksky]

Even good engineers can easily lose perspective when working on their own projects. It's always best, when possible, to track the drums in a decent studio...but it sounds like you guys want to combine preproduction with production and work at a slower pace. I would definitely recommend you budget to bring an engineer in on the project...a second set of ears can be invaluable when it's your own music...plus it will allow you to focus on the important part of the process...the MUSIC.

[Sounds Great]

Yes, $6,000 really isn't very much.

What are the expectations of the label for that amount? A finished, mastered record? Or something short of that? Either way, you don't want to learn all the aspects of making a record on the fly. Spend your time getting the songs down 100%. Then hire the studio and the people to record those songs and make them sound as good as possible on the budget provided.

[forgetmeknots]

whats your band called?

[Podgorny]

Since most of us got into this by recording our own bands, we can all sympathize with your desire to acquire gear... But this is NOT the time to hone your recording skills. I mean, imagine if the label said you needed to hire a session drummer, and you had the option of hiring a professional who plays for a living, or a friend of yours who promises to use all the money you've agreed to pay him to purchase a "pro" drum kit.

Don't put you gear lust ahead of the band's career.


If I were in your situation, I'd find a producer/engineer who clicks with what you guys are doing. And if I were in the producer's seat, I'd plan on spending few days at a decent studio for drums ($2000), bring my gear to your place, and spend a few weeks tracking the rest of your album at your home studio. I would either mix at my place and send you mix refs, or mix at your place, and then budget a grand for mastering. After air-fare and meals, I'd pocket two grand, and you'd have a record that sounded like it cost a lot more than it did.

[theblue1]

I'm going against my own stubborn streak here...

Even though I'm a big fan of bands taking control of their own careers/recordings/etc, in this case, I think you should put your money into getting the best recording you can and that almost certainly -- again, in this case -- means a good studio and production team (could be a team of one, of course).

If you already had a good rig and room set up and the expertise to get quality recordings with it, that would be one thing. (Even then, not every band should probably record themselves, even when they have the skills. Sometimes it's best to let an outside party take care of that end. Every situation is a little different.)

But why not start budgeting money for getting your own demo recording rig up and work on developing the skills to get the most out of it. That way, you'll be more prepared whichever direction you go on future projects.

[peeder]

Yeah I'd just do prepro with the home studio stuff you have...maybe just add a pair of SDCs to capture the whole band at once...figure out the basic tracks live. Then when you have everything together go to a decent studio with a good engineer and cut the thing live until it cooks. Then maybe go back home and do some overdubs. Then bring it back in for mixing.

I assume this $6K will be recouped of album sales and right now that means what, 6,000 units will be sold before you see any further money? That's a lot of units to go out and move and you're going to need a radio-impressive product and you're going to need to have the songs tight live. Both of those are helped by this formula.

[Janesaid2me]

All Im gonna say is dont produce and engineer your own band....ive been recording for about 8 years now and playing in bands for 10+ years and my best work recording wise has been when I produce other peoples projects. I go insane doing my own stuff...it never sounds as good...For 6k id use that money and go to a nice mid level studio with some guys that know their stuff....i know a place in NJ that has done plenty of indie rock albums for labels and they charge 40/hr. Im sure you could get a whole album done if your rehearsed.

[tidepool]

Hmmm, $6k? Since you are “looking to step up the sophistication of the sound on this one” my gut instinct is to agree with the majority of posters (so far) and get thee to a studio.

If the studio is worth their salt, they will have skrimped and saved for really, really good tools (and know how to fully exploit them), and will have at least one or two great sounding spaces. The sound quality of their rooms should not be underestimated; how good does your space sound in comparison? Here in Portland, you can find very good studios, run by very capable (and nice) people, for $450-750 per day.

Alternately, assuming you’ve got a really good-sounding space to record in, you could buy the following hardware in the neighborhood of $4k:

Bock 195, Crowley & Tripp Studio Vocalist or Peluso 2247LE – main vocal mic and/or mono drum overhead
Peluso CEMC6 stereo kit mics – for your overheads, acoustic guitars, piano, percussion
Neve Portico 5016 – single channel mic pre w/ d.i. or
Neve Portico 5012 – two channel mic pre so you can do some nice stereo tracking
Adam BM5A or Adam A7 monitors – so you can hear what you’ve recorded

And rent:
Apogee Rosetta 800 – you’ll want more than 2 channels for killer drums
True Precision 8 or API 3124 - eight or four channels of mic pre for drums
Chandler Germanium comp – if you want to compress while tracking or
Neve Portico 5043 comp – to compress two tracks & with a dif flav than the Germ

And then:
Book one or two days in a studio (with an engineer you gel with) so you can play back & mix all your killer tracks through their converters, console, & outboard (in their great-sounding control room).

Good luck!

[bannerj]

Originally Posted by Horsemouth

Hey Guys,
Love the board, i've been reading it for years. I'm a drummer in a somewhat national indie rock band. Hopefully I can help answer more drum related stuff in the future.

My question is this. Our label is offering us 6 g's to do whatever we want to record our next album. We want to buy some gear with it to track the majority of the album, maybe even drums. I have an 002 with a macbook pro and a few mics, but not quite enough to get much of a drum sound. I've got a beta 52, a few 57's and no overheads worth mentioning. I know great albums have been made for much less (like our first album) but we're looking to step up the sophistication of the sound on this one.

Any ideas? Thanks!

I'm going to tell you something closer to what I think you probably want to hear....do what you want....record yourself. I love gearslutz. This community has been a great help, BUT...I think you might be better off over in TapeOp land. If you don't get the magazine already, it is free and that community is a whole lot more inclined to talk low end gear, DIY all the way and self recording. Most of the guys here on GS are making a living as recording engineers or hoping to. There is a lot of overlap between the GS and TO communities, but as a general rule the standards around here are more inclined towards higher end facilities and higher end gear etc. PLEASE GS peeps. I'm not trying to offend anyone here. I'm just guessing this guy is being backed by a much smaller label than what many of the GS people are used to working. This is conjecture and generalization of course........anyway.

I have some friends who recorded a whole record with two 57s and mixed it with Audacity on an older PC through PA speakers. They are not a national act. They don't have label support. But it is one of my favorite records.

Eliot Smith recorded his own tracks and even mixed a lot of them.

Chris Walla started with some pretty raw record sounds. Listen back to Death Cabs earliest stuff.

Sufjan records most of his stuff on one of those Roland VS stations.

Another friend is working on a record for Asthmatic Kitty and all he has got is an mbox, a pair of Alesis monitors, a 57 and a one groove tubes mic.

And I'm sure there are many people on GS who could name all kinds of people who are successful at recording themselves. All these guys who have already posted are saying is that recording yourself is tough. It shouldn't be taken lightly. It is a whole nother learning curve and therefore it is a gamble.

Anyway, if I were you and I really wanted to give this a shot...here is what I'd do with $6000:

$800-$1000 on good monitors
$800 sytek preamp...or if somebody in you band is good with a soldering iron...get into the Seventh Circle preamps
$400-$500 oktava MC-012 get the omni capsules especially for OHs
$800-$1500 one solid all around large diaphragm mic that will work primarily for your lead vox, as an additional mono mic on the drums, on bass cabs, in a pair with the oktava on ac guitars etc...
$800-$1000 on some good plugins I'm a big fan of Sonalksis and URS

That should leave you some money left to buy mic cables, some headphones, some lines for running headphones, a small monitor mixer, some mic stands.

They of this setup is learning to record your drums with just four mics: kick, snare and two overheads. Some of my favorite drums sounds are with omni overheads. If you are able to find an interesting sounding room, the omnis make it easier to deal with phase issues etc.

If you can pull another $1500-$2000 together, you should consider a good stereo compressor. I'm about to buy the Drawmer 1968 and am getting it for $1500. You can use that for tracking and also on your 2buss when you go to mix.

I'm very sure that the people on GS could come up with a better setup. I just wanted to show you an example of what you could do with $6000 if you wanted. That is a lot of money to most people and it can be stretched even further if you have the time to do lots of research and look for used gear and even DIY some yourself.

Your macbook pro is plenty of power.