tom sound... mostly from over heads or close mic?

[sadworld]

just wondered what the ratio is in general from overheads to close mics on the toms.... in the final mix where does most of your toms sound come from? overheads or the close mics?

[LTA]

With a good drummer, a well-tuned kit, appropriate cymbal selection, and a good enough room, (teamed with mic selection and fine-tuned positioning) you can get excellent results with using 100% overheads.

Now, if this mostly works out, but there is a deficiency (or you just want fuller tom/snare), you can start putting in small amounts of the appropriate close mic. Just a little bit, till it sounds more like what you are looking for. There should be more overhead than close mic though.

Or you can approach it from the other realm, and get a "good" sound from the close mics, and then gradually add the overheads to get some cymbal sound and some other fun buzz-phrases engineers use, like "air" or "room" or whatever.

The more close mics you use, and the louder (relative to overheads) they are, the more you can manipulate the sound. It is far easier and better to change the sound of a drumset through tuning, head selection, and rearranging the kit from a "stereo" perspective, but the combination of drummers being locked into their kit and their sound, and engineers being locked into their sound and their method, creates this conflict that is often resolved using eq's and compression.

That said, try both approaches. They are both important to be able to do, depending on the situation. Overheads first requires a bit more thought and tweaking during the tracking phase, but you will never get that big overproduced drum sound of the 80's using just overheads. And both (all) drum sounds are valid if they are appropriate to the situation.

[cdog]

Tuning and playing techniques are key. You have to hit the drums with some force to get the proper bloom.

This is even more important if you want to capture a nice room sound.

[sphereman]

Nice ribbon mics out front or behind the drums provide better tom sound than any where else. Maybe 25% comes from the close mics.

[DirkB]

In the rock mixes I'm working on at the moment it's about 50-50...

Greetings,
Dirk

[Drumsound]

I always think of recording drum-set starting from the top. First overheads, then room then BD then SD then toms. I find if the instrumentation is more open, with less things, and less heavily saturated guitar, a lot can come from the overheads and BD mic. As I get more things happening I use more of the close mics. Some tunes I have just the OH and room in the verse, but when the chorus kicks in the rest of the mics will be opened. Or sometimes the bridge can come down to less mics. It's kind of like have a stomp box for the drums.

[Waylon]

I am big on close mics for toms... they are probablly 75% of the sound come mix, if not more.... espically is we are talking R&R or anything that is dry...

[Waylon]

I am big on close mics for toms... they are probablly 75% of the sound come mix, if not more.... espically is we are talking R&R or anything that is dry...

[NathanEldred]

I like the sound of close mic'ed toms also. Even when the drummer is technically excellent with well tuned drums, not close mic'ing the toms still can sound a little 'distant' to my ears. Especially for a very dense mix with a lot of distorted guitars. If it's folk rock, basic bluesy type of stuff or jazz with one or two guitar tracks with primarily acoustic instruments, it's much easier to get away with a basic 3 or 4 mic technique and most likely not necessary to close mic anything except kick and snare. But even in a thick mix, I'd still say that around 50% of the sound comes from overheads.

[DirkB]

What Nathan said.

What I don't like about close tom mics is the leakage of the cymbals. So I edit the in between leakage out of the tracks, works great, better than gating . So the majority of the track in dense mixes is only kick, snare, overheads (and sometimes some room); toms kick in when hit .

Greetings,
Dirk

[sadworld]

seems like that would sound un natural, dirk.... like the same effect as a gate, they would be all chopped off, maybe you just don't have them up too much in the mix... i too hate the cymbal bleed. seems like it's worse in the overheads though. i don't understand how some people can get most of their tom sound from the overheads and not have too much cymbals?

[cdog]

Originally posted by sadworld
i don't understand how some people can get most of their tom sound from the overheads and not have too much cymbals?

Its all about the player. You have to hit the skins like a man and the metal like a little boy.

[mdbeh]

Originally posted by sadworld
seems like that would sound un natural, dirk.... like the same effect as a gate, they would be all chopped off, maybe you just don't have them up too much in the mix...

It sounds natural if you don't cut too close. You let the toms decay all the way when they're hit, but you scrub the sections where they're not playing at all.

i too hate the cymbal bleed. seems like it's worse in the overheads though. i don't understand how some people can get most of their tom sound from the overheads and not have too much cymbals?

A lot of it is placement, finding a balance front-to-back. As you get closer to the player's head and farther from the cymbals, you'll start to hear more toms and snare. That said, I like close mics for toms, particularly for denser rock stuff.

[LTA]

Originally posted by cdog
You have to hit the skins like a man and the metal like a little boy.

Make a poster out of this and stick it on the wall of every drum practice room (and studio) like those inspirational posters they had back in highschool. Something like "Drumming is 5% inspiration and 95% persperation."

But yeah, right on. Something i see far too often is people hitting the cymbals far harder than they hit their toms (or even snare, what a bunch of sissies). Add to that the cymbals are like 2 inches away from, and covering, the toms, it is no reason all you hear is cymbals and cymbal bleed. And they (the cymbals) don't sound that good when they get hit that hard (unless they are Z customs, which begin to sound "okay" at that point). Overheads or close mics, it will be a problem.

[Remoteness]

When it comes to drum overheads, I go for the whole kit.

Mic choice and positioning is everything. I slip in the tom mics when necessary as needed.

[heinz]

Most drummers who spend their time playing live in clubs usually get a kik & snare mike on stage, then have to bash the shit out of the cymbals so they'll make it past the guitar amps and over the monitors.

Hitting the drums firmly in a way that projects a huge sound is an art form that doesn't seem to be taught much anymore these days. Time to get out the Tony Thompson and Chester Thompson records.

[TML]

I find that going for the whole kit overhead for modern rock, metal and emo bands where the kids are riding on the crash doesn't work for me. The stuff doesn't translate to radio unless the drummer had a great sense of balance and a killer headphone mix. That said...how can you cut through 2 tracks of marshall and mesa without using 70 percent close micing on the toms or more. They don't have the impact that I like to hear. Sure..I'll bring in the room for depth during a quiet uncluttered passage...but I've had no luck with this technique. Would love to understand it more.
TIm

[Remoteness]

My secret weapon is a pair beyer M160's pointing straight down over the kit. I bring in the close mics when the toms are played.

But, I hear you loud and clear... when a drummer's cymbals are louder then their toms it's murder. Sometimes the cymbals can be much too loud in the close mics. Ouch!

[matskull]

I know this is an old thread but I see no point to start a new thread.

I was suposed to record a band this weekend but the session has been reported to next week cause the leader was sick.

So I did some test anyway, it's a rock band and we'd like to get a 50/50 modern/vintage type of sound.
The punch of the modern productions with the tone of a vintage drum recording.

Anyway, the kick sounds good, the snare is ok, I'll work on it a bit more, the toms even though they sound clear aren't "fat" enough and they have too much cymbals to be used without gating.

I'm using 3 MD421, they're at 2-3 inches from the top head and they point to where the sticks hits.
What I like about that distance is that the toms don't sound muddy but they pick more bleed, a bit too much to make they punchy enough.

Should I get the mic closer and raise the cymbals?

[Remoteness]

Some of my best drum sounds were captured by using properly placed overheads.
These days I rarely use close mics to get my sound.

I do my best to get the sound I'm looking for during the origination.
No "plug-ins" were harmed in the making of my sounds.

[matskull]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Some of my best drum sounds were captured by using properly placed overheads.
These days I rarely use close mics to get my sound.

I do my best to get the sound I'm looking for during the origination.
No "plug-ins" were harmed in the making of my sounds.

I got some great tom sounds using the recorderman technique.
This time I'm trying a different approach, using overheads that are more for the cymbals and using close mics.

[PlayRadioPlay]

I don't even use close mics most of the time for toms.

[Watty]

All of the overhead only techniques talked about above totally fall apart when faced with rubbish drummers (which are in plentiful supply.) If you have a good drummer playing a good, well tuned kit, you'll be able to do pretty much what you want and it'll sound great. On the other hand, if you have a not so good drummer on a good, well tuned kit, hammering away on the cymbals and ticking the drums you'll probably be reaching for the triggers in seconds!

[BLueROom]

Originally Posted by Watty

All of the overhead only techniques talked about above totally fall apart when faced with rubbish drummers (which are in plentiful supply.) If you have a good drummer playing a good, well tuned kit, you'll be able to do pretty much what you want and it'll sound great. On the other hand, if you have a not so good drummer on a good, well tuned kit, hammering away on the cymbals and ticking the drums you'll probably be reaching for the triggers in seconds!

[PlayRadioPlay]

Originally Posted by Watty

All of the overhead only techniques talked about above totally fall apart when faced with rubbish drummers (which are in plentiful supply.) If you have a good drummer playing a good, well tuned kit, you'll be able to do pretty much what you want and it'll sound great. On the other hand, if you have a not so good drummer on a good, well tuned kit, hammering away on the cymbals and ticking the drums you'll probably be reaching for the triggers in seconds!

This is true, unfortunately. But with a great sounding kit and a great drummer, good sounding overheads can be 85% of the drum sound. I remember the first time I heard some Cole 4038s on a drum kit, I said to the engineer "Holy shit. Don't unmute anything else. We're done." We did unmute other things, of course, but for that song in particular, I think the Coles were most of the drum sound, with a mic outside of the kick head and a few other things mixed in minimally.