Is the M160 very different from the MD441 on electric guitar?

[TapeOp]

Hello guys...
I would appreciate your comments on the following...

Some people say the Beyerdynamic M160 does wonders on electric guitar cabinets.
As a guitarist who records quite some stuff at my home studio (and then take the tracks to mix at a pro facility) I've been considering to buy one, but money is always an issue.

I have a Sennheiser MD441, which I find softer than say an SM57, and sometimes use when I'm looking for a mellower sound.

I already have a nice collection of LDC that I usually place further apart from the cabinets, so I'm talking about close up miking now...

Would I get a considerably different sound with the M160?

[acca]

I read an article in which Eddie Kramer reported that an M160 was used on almost every Hendrix session.
Unfortunately I've never tried one, but I know for sure that chandlersonic owns one.
You'll better ask him!

[drBill]

Originally Posted by TapeOp

Would I get a considerably different sound with the M160?

Considerably is in the "ear" of the beholder. Some would say the difference would be huge. Others would look at you funny and say it still sounds like a guitar. It's a ribbon mic. It sounds different than a dynamic. How much so is up to you. Give it a listen.

[chandlersonic]

Originally Posted by drBill

Considerably is in the "ear" of the beholder. Some would say the difference would be huge. Others would look at you funny and say it still sounds like a guitar. It's a ribbon mic. It sounds different than a dynamic. How much so is up to you. Give it a listen.

+1

Also keep in mind the 160 will not handle high SPL well, so you can't turn the amp way way up.

[Jay Kahrs]

To answer the "base" question... YES.

441 & 160 are radically different microphones.

I would never EVER put a 160 right on the grille of an amp either...

It'll sound amazing for about .5718 seconds before the ribbon folds in half.

[ryanojohn]

totally different microphones... I love the M160 on high gain guitars, just got to be careful about volume level.

http://ryanojohn.com/mp3/Burmecia%20M1.mp3
was an only one M160 on the guitar cab (marshall 1960A 2x12, Peavey 5150 Head), no mixing on this track yet, this is the rough 'off the mics' mix.

[warhead]

Originally Posted by chandlersonic

+1

Also keep in mind the 160 will not handle high SPL well, so you can't turn the amp way way up.

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

I would never EVER put a 160 right on the grille of an amp either...

It'll sound amazing for about .5718 seconds before the ribbon folds in half.

Now how come I get yelled at when I say the M160 craps out on guitar amps too easy? I'm glad I'm not the only one!

War

[Nu-tra]

I put a vocal pop stopper in front of my close miced ribbons.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by warhead

Now how come I get yelled at when I say the M160 craps out on guitar amps too easy? I'm glad I'm not the only one!

War

Must be the difference between armchair warriors & those who wield the microphones....

[Sounds Great]

I haven't compared them, but it seems that they would be radically different sounding. Or maybe not so different sounding, depending on how much high end was dialed in on the guitar set up.

[cgarges]

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

Must be the difference between armchair warriors & those who wield the microphones....

I will say that although I am the proud owner of two blown-up M160s right now, I have been using them on guitar amps for years. Neither of mine died an instant death.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by chandlersonic

Also keep in mind the 160 will not handle high SPL well, so you can't turn the amp way way up.

I never had a problem with M160s on a 4x12 cabinet + 100W Marshall Super Lead. But maybe you guys are recording WAY louder than I am.

Also, there's no need to put them right on the grille. Back it off a little bit and you might find that you like the sound even more.
Since the M160 is one of my fave mics in general (acoustic guitars/Percussion/OHs espeically) I will take into account that I might need to re-ribbon them at some point. I'm careful not to abuse them but like anything that you use a lot is prone to wear out a some point.


I find the M160 to be fantastic for overdriven guitar sounds, especially when paired with a Chandler TG-2 but then again it might not be a 'modern rock sound' so find out for yourself.

The M160 surely is very different from the MD-441 and so is the MD-421 but I find all 3 mics to be great for guitar amps and will also often combine them. As much as I like the SM 57 for a lot of things, I haven't really used it on guitar amps for a long while.

[chandlersonic]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

I never had a problem with M160s on a 4x12 cabinet + 100W Marshall Super Lead. But maybe you guys are recording WAY louder than I am.

Yes I am talking about very very loud guitar cabs.
For some tones, you just have to crank it up on 11, no way around it and that's were 121s come in really handy 'cause they never crap out.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by chandlersonic

Yes I am talking about very very loud guitar cabs.
For some tones, you just have to crank it up on 11, no way around it and that's were 121s come in really handy 'cause they never crap out.

Could you give me a rough SPL number to know what levels were talking here? I'd like to check for myself wter....

[Chris]

I'm confused. Are we talking ribbon mics in general, or just the m160 that can't handle being right up on a guitar cab?

Because I see royer 121's in front of cabs all the time...

[TapeOp]

Originally Posted by drBill

Considerably is in the "ear" of the beholder. Some would say the difference would be huge. Others would look at you funny and say it still sounds like a guitar. It's a ribbon mic. It sounds different than a dynamic. How much so is up to you. Give it a listen..

I'm not asking you about my opinion, I'm asking you about "your" opinion - if it sounds considerably different "to you". Did I really have to specify that...?



Thanks you ALL for the input!

I found the following posts particularly enlightening:

Originally Posted by acca

I read an article in which Eddie Kramer reported that an M160 was used on almost every Hendrix session.

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

To answer the "base" question... YES.
441 & 160 are radically different microphones.

Originally Posted by doorknocker

The M160 surely is very different from the MD-441 and so is the MD-421 but I find all 3 mics to be great for guitar amps and will also often combine them. As much as I like the SM 57 for a lot of things, I haven't really used it on guitar amps for a long while.

So I'm buying one... let's see how it goes...

thumbsup

[drBill]

Originally Posted by TapeOp

I'm not asking you about my opinion, I'm asking you about "your" opinion - if it sounds considerably different "to you". Did I really have to specify that...?

Yes that would have helped. I can put up two 441's and get a bunch of engineers to tell me how much different they sound from each other. And I can get another group and put up a ribbon and a 441 and be pretty confident that they pretty much couldn't tell the difference. So, it's all a moot point. Without knowing you and your tastes and skill level and ears, my opinion is useless for you. AS far as your question is concerned, yes, they sound different to me.

[TapeOp]

Originally Posted by drBill

I can put up two 441's and get a bunch of engineers to tell me how much different they sound from each other. And I can get another group and put up a ribbon and a 441 and be pretty confident that they pretty much couldn't tell the difference.

That's right.

Originally Posted by drBill

Without knowing you and your tastes and skill level and ears, my opinion is useless for you.

No, it's not. I appreciate it, especially if you complement your words with some context.
In fact, I got the answers I wanted just like that.

If I were to tell you that I have a fantastic pair of ears, what makes you believe that I'm able to evaluate myself?

[drBill]

Originally Posted by TapeOp

If I were to tell you that I have a fantastic pair of ears, what makes you believe that I'm able to evaluate myself?

Whatever dude. I was just trying to tell you that there's a subjective difference that's unquantifiable. There is no black or white as much as you'd like to hear there is. Your best bet is to listen and see if you dig it. If not, you can sell the mic.

[TapeOp]

As much as I'd like to hear there is...?

Never mind...
I'm sorry if I upset you with any of my comments. I had no intention.

Now, this thread was not meant to be about our different ways of posting on web foruns, let alone stumbling on plain ground.
Let's take it back to the M160, should someone else wish...

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by TapeOp

Let's take it back to the M160, should someone else wish...

Generally, a ribbon should have a different (maybe much different) sound to a dynamic. Which are both different than a condensor, of course. I have used many condensors and dynamics on the guitar cabinet. I had a ribbon, the M500 but never recorded the guitar with it. I found the high end to be lacking for vocals for my use, and sold it. But it depends how bright the source is and how much you want to tame it if it is bright. That's why the ribbon is often good for brass, to tame the brassness.

So I don't know what your (source) guitar sounds like and how it must fit in your mix, and that leaves me unable to know which mic (I) think might be best. I have gravitated to condensors on all my electric guitars but I like the tone coming out of my speakers just as is, much of it from my 6550 (hifi) power tubes in my Marshall. My all time favorite is still the Gefell M900, but it is at least 1000 bucks. Right now I settle for the AT 4047, a close 2nd. thumbsup

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

Generally, a ribbon should have a different (maybe much different) sound to a dynamic. Which are both different than a condensor, of course. I have used many condensors and dynamics on the guitar cabinet. I had a ribbon, the M500 but never recorded the guitar with it. I found the high end to be lacking for vocals for my use, and sold it. But it depends how bright the source is and how much you want to tame it if it is bright. That's why the ribbon is often good for brass, to tame the brassness.

So I don't know what your (source) guitar sounds like and how it must fit in your mix, and that leaves me unable to know which mic (I) think might be best. I have gravitated to condensors on all my electric guitars but I like the tone coming out of my speakers just as is, much of it from my 6550 (hifi) power tubes in my Marshall. My all time favorite is still the Gefell M910, but it is at least 1000 bucks. Right now I settle for the AT 4047, a close 2nd. thumbsup

TapeOp - I still don't get it. Must have not had my coffee this AM. I thought saying something like : "yeah dude! Beyer ribbons totally rock my world, dude!!!" - or some similar typical internet responce would have been doing you a dis-service in actually figuring out how they sound. Hence my responce(s). Sorry they didn't work for you. It's all good....

Sounds great - if you like the Gefell, try a M71S. Great on Gtr Cabs, and significantly cheaper, although it may take awhile to find one. I like the non "T" version - with transformer.

[Sounds Great]

Oops, that was a typo. I meant the M900. The M910 is the hyper-cardioid version I haven't tried.

[rob S]

i've used 160's for years on gtr cabs.
and i've never had them crap out.
its one of the things that i liked about them.
royers crapped out long before i've ever heard the 160 buckle.
and i'm not saying anything bad about royers, they're great.