Publishers - Good? Bad?

[Baderup99]

So I'm in school and I was learning about publishers and all that. I know people like Dave Matthews owns like 95% of his own music, and makes so much fricken money! His kids',kids',kids', kids will never have to work.

And Gomez, when they first started off got what, a $250,000 publishing deal, and at that time they were young and broke, hell yeah they are going to to take that, yet they are now just starting to see money come in from that publishing deal, and that happened what almost 10 years ago?

But now Gomez, with ATO records, our their own publishers and will begin to make more money than they ever have.

So whats the deal with publishers? Something you should do when you are new? Yet once you establish yourself get out of it and become your own publisher?

[Kenny Gioia]

Definitely do it.

Very few own their own because publishers always want to give you those huge advances.

Do you want to make $100,000 per quarter or do you want 5 million right now?

Your manager and lawyer will convince you to take the latter.

So would I.

[matt thomas]

Bigger advance = worse percentage and vice versa typically

Only go with an established publishing company, they have contacts.

narco

[Baderup99]

I was talking to someone about this who believes for most people, that it's all about short term money. and thats what publishers can provide with advancements

[ZenKen]

I think the rule of thumb used to be "If you don't need the money to live on NOW, don't sign a pub deal." (which DMB probably didn't need because they had a big live following/marketing plan etc. before they ever had a deal)

BUT, a lot of people say publishers have the connections to get your songs placed etc...

And another BUT: they usually don't give attention to new writers anyway.

SO, IMHO, the newish way is to get an awsome manager with either connections to get your stuff placed or a hungry and brilliant one to make the connections and sell you and your songs to the powers that be (TV and Flim and Advertising music supervisors etc...).

Once you place something, it will probably lubricate the whole process (so to speak)

[mix-it-well]

Originally Posted by ZenKen

And another BUT: they usually don't give attention to new writers anyway.

SO, IMHO, the newish way is to get an awsome manager with either connections to get your stuff placed or a hungry and brilliant one to make the connections and sell you and your songs to the powers that be (TV and Flim and Advertising music supervisors etc...).

Once you place something, it will probably lubricate the whole process (so to speak)

+1
that's the way to go.

[Protools Guy]

Most publishing deal are for a 3/4 rate of mechanicals.
If you can, try to negotiate your deal to be for a full mechanical rate.
I'm with Kenny, if the advance is 5 mil, you'll probably want to take the deal.

[mohthom]

There is more than money to consider.

Imagine you'd just given $5m (or $250k, or even $5!) to some guy because you thought he could play, and that you could make money off him. The way for you to get that back is to make that guy famous, sell lots of records, and generally get him to be a rock'n'roll star.

In this situation, you can guarantee there's someone fighting your corner, and trying as hard as you are to make you the big thing you feel you deserve to be. It may be your life, but it's HIS $5m - so he's gonna try and get it back (and more)!

MohThoM

[Blue May]

Like others have mentioned, if you need to money upfront to allow you to work on music full time and to invest in equipment then unfortunately signing a publishing is a necessary evil. however if you are earning enough money to hold off you will definitely see a better return in the long run!

personally i am holding out... either to be in a position to collect my own or have enough bargaining power to negotiate a great deal. I have a great manager who already placed my songs for me so i dont need a publisher to do that right now and to be totally honest, as someone else mentioned, publishers dont really push songs from the new writers..

remember if you are an unknown you are always going to be on a back foot.. my lawyers advice is to try and get a good few cuts before you even think about publishing!

the good thing about being a producer/writer is that i can earn enough money right now from production fees and remixes. that allows me to hold out for my writing money.

however if someone was to offer me 1,000,000 tomorrow in exchange for 50% of my publishing.. i would be hard pressed to say no! especially with my appetite for more compressors d a console!!

--------------

on the other hand entirely, i do think it can be good for artists to sign their publishing early and holding out on their record deals.. but thats another entire thread!

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by mohthom

There is more than money to consider.

Imagine you'd just given $5m (or $250k, or even $5!) to some guy because you thought he could play, and that you could make money off him. The way for you to get that back is to make that guy famous, sell lots of records, and generally get him to be a rock'n'roll star.

In this situation, you can guarantee there's someone fighting your corner, and trying as hard as you are to make you the big thing you feel you deserve to be. It may be your life, but it's HIS $5m - so he's gonna try and get it back (and more)!

MohThoM

Sorry. I can't agree there. In my experience publishing companies are merely banks trying to ride on your back because they believe that you will be successful. Sure. They'll send out your songs to everyone who's looking but they're not running around in those artist's and producer's faces trying to get them to cut your songs. Making it hard for them to say no. That's your job and all the best have had that ability.

If you find yourself wondering why a really bad song is on the radio, it's partly because the songwriter was a better cheerleader than a composer.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Blue May

Like others have mentioned, if you need to money upfront to allow you to work on music full time and to invest in equipment then unfortunately signing a publishing is a necessary evil. however if you are earning enough money to hold off you will definitely see a better return in the long run!

I agree except for that one word in Red.

You will definitely see a better return if the song is successful.

What about the failures?

I know a dozen or so NYX songwriters who got huge advance and have never come close to making that money back for the publisher. The publisher took a risk. Do you want to? No way.

I don't care how good a record is, there's always a good chance that somehow it will fail.

If there's a lot of hype around a signing, the publishers will be offering really good money for your publishing. You can wait until it hits and possibly make even more or grab the cash now and put the risk on them.

Jerry McGuire was a movie. Betting on one number in Roulette usually leaves you on the losing side.

[mac black]

It’s a tough call.

My first publishing deal was an exclusive deal and I got paid a nice amount although after two years I ran out of cash and then the publishers wouldn't pick up the phone...

I managed to get out of the deal after 3 years of fighting and all my publishing deals ever since were NON EXCLUSIVE, meaning, they would only sign one project at a time, it proved to be the best decision I ever made, every time I had a hit record, I got paid shit loads of cash, without the commitment.

If you're starting out, make sure you're not signing your life away; publishers can stretch you over 12-15 years without paying any proper advances.

Now I have my own publishing company that collects for me.

Publishers are like banks (except, you don't have to pay back the money if things go wrong)

Never believe a word a major publisher says, they're only interested in market share.

If you can, always insist on 'non exclusive' deals.

Take as much as you can upfront without giving too much in return (first rule of any business)

If a publisher promises cuts on films/ads/TV then they are lying, unless its in the contract (publisher would never sign a clause like that).

I had cuts on 'The matrix' (and a few more blockbuster films) and the main sound bites for one of the big news channels but that's only because THEY called and asked for it, the publishers did nothing to get me the cuts.

50/50 deals are 1950's style; you should never agree to that, most publishing deals are between 70/30 and 80/20 (in your favour), anything below that is a rip off IMO.

Also, never give rights for more then 7-15 years if you can (Life of copyright is out of the question, no matter what)


Just my humble opinion.

[narcoman]

my EMI publishing deal was 80/20 in my favour for £150,000. This was nine years ago. Im free now...!!

As soon as the advance was repaid I earned money from publishing. I earned EXACTLY the same money through EMI regardless of the advance. The concession was giving EMI 20% of the publishers share - actually equates to 10% of publishing revenue since the royalty collection agencies pay 50% direct to writers. Without the concession i wouldnt have got he expoure I had and wouldnt have made the money i did.

The ONLY reason Gomez didnt make loads of money out of publishing is because they didnt sell loads of records or other media or do any valuable sync licenses. It has nothing to do with signing a bad deal - they had a similar deal to me, yet i made money. You earn from the first penny in publishing after you pay back the advance. Its all fair. Its not like a record deal where you get 12 - 15% of the PPD (although i think thats fine too in the early days)

[indie]

Take the deal if you get at least 250k...but go for a nice reversion clause in a short period of time. But, realize that you'd be one of MANY writers in the company and that you'll have to make a lot of noise to get attention. Squeaky wheel and all..

[Blue May]

Originally Posted by Produceher

I agree except for that one word in Red.

You will definitely see a better return if the song is successful.

What about the failures?

I know a dozen or so NYX songwriters who got huge advance and have never come close to making that money back for the publisher. The publisher took a risk. Do you want to? No way.

I don't care how good a record is, there's always a good chance that somehow it will fail.

If there's a lot of hype around a signing, the publishers will be offering really good money for your publishing. You can wait until it hits and possibly make even more or grab the cash now and put the risk on them.

Jerry McGuire was a movie. Betting on one number in Roulette usually leaves you on the losing side.

I see your point. my mentality tells me not to ever use the fact that i might fail as reason to cash in on something early if you get my drift..