Bands who'd rather record together

[china jam]

That can't really play together - how do you approach it?

I'm used to cutting drums and having the time to have them edited / put into shape before we move on to anything else. A lot of production normally happens at this point as well, re-structuring etc.

This weekend I'll be working with a band with not much time and even less money...how do you get this sounding any where near good?

[superburtm]

if they are a band..let them roll live with no headphones. My favorite way. Capture the sound. Let it bleed!

get multiple takes and splice takes if you have to.

Originally Posted by china jam

That can't really play together - how do you approach it?

I'm used to cutting drums and having the time to have them edited / put into shape before we move on to anything else. A lot of production normally happens at this point as well, re-structuring etc.

This weekend I'll be working with a band with not much time and even less money...how do you get this sounding any where near good?

[AlexLakis]

All you can advise them to do is practice more. If they think it sounds good as it is, then either roll with it or tell them to record somewhere else. If you feel like editing it after the fact would improve their sound, tell them and see how they respond. All you can do is ask...

[Windshore]

Isolate them, spend the time to give them a headphone mix they can be comfy with. You can do miracles later, so long as the bandmates are isolated. Of course, I couldn't do it without PT. Beat Detective, or manual editing with quant can really be amazing, but not something I'd want to try in another DAW,... at least not as extensively....

[china jam]

Originally Posted by superburtm

get multiple takes and splice takes if you have to.

I've done this on pre-production demos and it's worked out ok but sometimes the timing get can get a bit iffy.

[Sigma]

put the gtr and bass amps in seperate rooms or isolate them with gobo's and blankets..

[superburtm]

Originally Posted by china jam

That can't really play together - how do you approach it?

I'm used to cutting drums and having the time to have them edited / put into shape before we move on to anything else. A lot of production normally happens at this point as well, re-structuring etc.

This weekend I'll be working with a band with not much time and even less money...how do you get this sounding any where near good?

it's like this: If they don't have alot of money. THen they don't have alot of time. SO ..make them sound like they sound and capture it. THat is how THEY sound. Chances are that is what they will like anyhow. Remember it's not always about making yourself happy..it's about making the artist happy. If they don't like that. Either A) go get more money or B) my personal favorite GO GET BETTER.

[r0ck1r0ck2]

or d.i. the amps and re-amp later.

especially the bass amp.

[rainsinvelvet]

Originally Posted by superburtm

if they are a band..let them roll live with no headphones. My favorite way. Capture the sound. Let it bleed!

get multiple takes and splice takes if you have to.

This is my preferred way to track a band. I hate having to deal with headphones and I find that the band spends more time dealing with how they sound through little headphones and less time playing rock and roll if I isolate everything.

Now, I think it helps that I'm in a room thats 36x26x13 and is big enough that I can separate the instruments a bit but let the musicians crank it up loud enough to get over the drums..

I just feel that the band loves the vibe this way and is way less pressure on the musicians (especially if they are green to the recording studio).

ERic

[Jim Williams]

I approach it by giving them the phone # of the guys down the road....

Problem solved.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

I approach it by giving them the phone # of the guys down the road....

Problem solved.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

hahahha i like you!

[warhead]

I wrapped up an album earlier this year with a local band who wanted to all track live without headphones, like they gig. We brought their whole PA in, found the lowest acceptable levels for them to monitor via the PA with, and rocked out. The band was pretty well rehearsed, we overdubbed vocals and acoustic guitars and were done.

My room was 30x30 so I was able to spread them out pretty decent anyhow. Sometimes there is surprisingly little bleed with drum tracks etc. We did put the guitar AMP in another room mic'd up, but of course ran it back through the PA to monitor it, but that way my figure 8 ribbon on the cab had zero bleed as well.

Just control what bleed you can, and embrace the rest!

War

[South Brokelyn]

Originally Posted by china jam

That can't really play together ...

as in they're not very good?

if they're not very good let them play together but use di's and cabs in other rooms so you can fix stuff afterward.

another trick if the drummer is solid let is to give only the drummer a click track to play to and the rest of the band can just rock along.

[slaves666]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

I approach it by giving them the phone # of the guys down the road....

Problem solved.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

I want to live down the road from you.......more work makes me happy....

But seriously......Bands have a hard time discerning between a bad "sounding" demo and bad "songs". They realize that they aren't on par with Metallica, but they think they are close, when they aren't in the same zip code. I prefer to take the time arranging the song so it makes sense......recording with a click, editing the crap out of the drums until they are near perfect, then tracking the rest, even if it means me playing guitar and bass.....then vocals, well, autotune everything.....When they hear the final product they are amazed....and your studio and work is well represented. The flip side is mediocre, get what you pay for, which is fine, but it won't increase your business, and definitly won't get many of them back for another session.

[John Suitcase]

A lot depends on the band's sound, what they're trying to do. A sloppy live recording of a garage blues band will work a lot better than a sloppy recording of a blink 182 type thing.

I tend to agree that if they're not ready to record, you should probably do a little preproduction recording, and give them pointers on what to work on. You can have them put some money into a deposit, and add to it every week until they have enough to do a 'real' recording. This way, you know they're not going to distribute the little preproduction demo, and you can keep in contact with them, to make sure they're getting somewhere.

At the end of the day, I like to record live, except vocals, though I'll do that, too, if necessary. I like to set up with the amps facing the drummer from out front. Turn them up enough for the drummer to hear them, and go for it. I think the approach of putting the amps farther away in a big room can be ok, but watch out for issues with low frequencies. I find that if you put the bass amp and the kick pretty close together, it can work well. A click in the drummer's ear can help if tempo is a problem, but make sure to have the drummer practice with a click for a few weeks before hand.

It's all about the end product, and keeping the artist happy.

[TheArchitect]

Originally Posted by slaves666

I want to live down the road from you.......more work makes me happy....

But seriously......Bands have a hard time discerning between a bad "sounding" demo and bad "songs". They realize that they aren't on par with Metallica, but they think they are close, when they aren't in the same zip code. I prefer to take the time arranging the song so it makes sense......recording with a click, editing the crap out of the drums until they are near perfect, then tracking the rest, even if it means me playing guitar and bass.....then vocals, well, autotune everything.....When they hear the final product they are amazed....and your studio and work is well represented. The flip side is mediocre, get what you pay for, which is fine, but it won't increase your business, and definitly won't get many of them back for another session.

Why is it necessary to edit he crap out of the drums? Wouldn't another dozen takes take a lot less time and get you 80% there while maintaining the bands identity?

I'm pretty sure playing the bands parts for them won't be getting you good word of mouth. Most bands aren't too thrilled about paying other people to play their instruments for them. Particularly if its coming out of their pocket.

I find it really disconcerting that engineers / producers A) feel the need for perfection even if it means replacing the entire band and B) that there is so little regard for a band that has a sound that is not exactly what is on the charts. Isn't that kind of the point?

Why buy this record when it sounds exactly like the one I bought yesterday?

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by TheArchitect

Why buy this record when it sounds exactly like the one I bought yesterday?

Thank you!

-R

[china jam]

I think I'll see how they sound together, giving the drummer the click track..they'd maybe get away with sounding a bit trashy.

You've all made some good points - re-amping is a possibility as they'll probably be using the studios amps.

I'm used to producing songs from the ground up, a lot of time goes into making the drums make sense, re-structuring the song to control the dynamics etc..I suppose I'll have to go back to the garage band ethos and let them do their thing though I'm retty sure they came to us to be fixed up!

[superburtm]

Originally Posted by china jam

I think I'll see how they sound together, giving the drummer the click track..they'd maybe get away with sounding a bit trashy.

You've all made some good points - re-amping is a possibility as they'll probably be using the studios amps.

I'm used to producing songs from the ground up, a lot of time goes into making the drums make sense, re-structuring the song to control the dynamics etc..I suppose I'll have to go back to the garage band ethos and let them do their thing though I'm retty sure they came to us to be fixed up!

sounds like planthumbsup

p.s.
Don't be afraid to fly without a click. Clicks slow production and usually mess with the drummers head

[FossilTooth]

Originally Posted by slaves666

I prefer to take the time arranging the song so it makes sense......recording with a click, editing the crap out of the drums until they are near perfect, then tracking the rest, even if it means me playing guitar and bass.....then vocals, well, autotune everything.....When they hear the final product they are amazed....and your studio and work is well represented. The flip side is mediocre, get what you pay for, which is fine, but it won't increase your business, and definitly won't get many of them back for another session.

Sounds like a great way to make a boring record, and help perpetuate the current notion among new musicians that it's OK to suck.

Not trying to rag on you. I really understand where your motivations come from. But at the end of the day, it's quite possible that this kind of approach is doing ireperable harm to modern music.

On the other hand, I have to admit that I'm guilty of doing the same, time and time again. I've decided to put a leash on it though. I think it's high time bands started sounding as good or bad as they are, and we should stay the F* out of the way of synthesizing something listenable from their messes, or diluting their natural beauty, whatever the case may be.

I miss music. So do the consumers. I think this is why they're buying fewer and fewer records.

For now I think I'll take Jim's advice and give those types your number. If that means I have to do another night or two of live sound this month to pay the bills, then so be it!

[superburtm]

Originally Posted by slaves666

I want to live down the road from you.......more work makes me happy....

But seriously......Bands have a hard time discerning between a bad "sounding" demo and bad "songs". They realize that they aren't on par with Metallica, but they think they are close, when they aren't in the same zip code. I prefer to take the time arranging the song so it makes sense......recording with a click, editing the crap out of the drums until they are near perfect, then tracking the rest, even if it means me playing guitar and bass.....then vocals, well, autotune everything.....When they hear the final product they are amazed....and your studio and work is well represented. The flip side is mediocre, get what you pay for, which is fine, but it won't increase your business, and definitly won't get many of them back for another session.

and everything sounds the same. THis does not excite me in the least.

[u b k]

i'm with the grumps on this one. if they can't play well together, i can only imagine how lifeless it will sound if they multitrack. if you do nothing else, at least preserve a little authenticity.

i think you're on the right track when you say it's time to get back to the garage band ethos. resist the urge to project onto them a desire to be 'polished up'. from what you've described, it doesn't sound like that's what they're after in the least.

besides, we need more bands that can pull it off together. an honest snapshot of where they're at is a tremendous help in hearing how they can pull it together better.

and you know, you might actually *enjoy* banging out a guerilla-style recording. you think they want you to button them up, i think maybe they've come to loosen your tie.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[uncle duncan]

Can you isolate the singer? Trying to track vocal songs with no vocal is a really good way to kill the music. Ideally, you can isolate the amps too, which allows the players the option to overdub if they screw up. This eliminates the pressure for a 'perfect' performance. You want the players to loosen up and have fun, not stand there all tense, worrying about muffing a note. You should also have a seperate headphone mix for each player. This is all stuff that is encompassed in the definition of a 'recording studio'. Or, at least, it used to be.

The live-in-one-room concept is great, but what are the chances of a mediocre band making it all the way through a song without a screwup? And doing multiple takes of the same song is a really good way to burn everybody out. I've found, after two or three takes, they're ready to move on, and running the song into the ground is just going to be wasted time. Especially if they're on a budget. The more takes there are, the more time must be spent sifting through them.

That being said, I think tracking the whole band live is the best way to go, in the sense that the music will have the magic that's missing from so much of what you hear these days.

The click track is a whole other topic. If the drummer is used to a click track, great. If not, it's going to totally ruin the music, because everytime he comes out of a fill, he's going to have to re-sync with the click, and the groove is going to go out the window.

This scenario is the perfect example of why full-featured recording studios exist. If this project isn't suited to your space, or your gear, the band needs to be made aware of the compromises involved in their decision to work with you.

[oudplayer]

Originally Posted by TheArchitect

Why is it necessary to edit he crap out of the drums? Wouldn't another dozen takes take a lot less time and get you 80% there while maintaining the bands identity?

That's assuming that with 12 more takes there will be progress towards that 80% goal. Often the opposite is the case. You edit the drums since it seems like the only likely way to do the project. You do the project to avoid being a homeless street person.

I'm pretty sure playing the bands parts for them won't be getting you good word of mouth. Most bands aren't too thrilled about paying other people to play their instruments for them. Particularly if its coming out of their pocket.

Depends if they are really into the music for music's sake, or if they're one of the countless, useless bands who seem to think they'll get "chicks" from their feeble efforts. If the latter, that should clue you in as to how likely it is you'll get a decent performance out of the band (and, the relative merit/worth of the band in the grander scheme of things).

I find it really disconcerting that engineers / producers A) feel the need for perfection even if it means replacing the entire band and B) that there is so little regard for a band that has a sound that is not exactly what is on the charts. Isn't that kind of the point?

Don't assume that the bands coming in A) can play together B) have a sound worth capturing. If they do (on either count), I think the majority of good professional engineers or producers would be totally in agreement with you. I get real excited when a band actually has, uh, songs... a sound... a vision... makes it possible to *really* start engineering.

[jeronimo]

I did some pretty decent demos and enven records live in my small place.
Drums in one room, 1 or 2 guitar amps on the small room and singer, bass player and guitar player(s) on the control room.
The bleed from the amps on the same small room is very reasonable and the bleed of everything into the vocal mic (SM7) into the control room is pretty OK too.

My line of thought on "modern overproducing" is:
If the band sux too much to the point where my work will be "damaged", then I can either edit the crap out of it, autotune everything, etc, OR send them home.
If the band make some little mistakes that could damage their "perfect" record but what it's really doing is adding some life to the project, then I leave it the way it is.
In the end, is just a matter of judgment, and your part on the project will pretty much leave you with the final decision in your hands.

[Cujo]

What is the best way to use wedge monitors instead of headphones? Is there a way to flip the monitors phase to cancel it out more?
I am recording a large band "live" in a few weeks and I'd love to avoid headpones,

By the way this band can play, they are a super group of some of Boston's best "Alternative" (I hate that term) rock musicians from some of the biggest club acts from years past. Now they've tones it down a bit, and this is a country style band now, with upright, fiddle and steel.

Thanks for suggestions

[Jules]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

I approach it by giving them the phone # of the guys down the road....

Problem solved.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Ditto, I have passed a ton of crappy or crazy bands on.. getting a trainee engineer to work with em is another good use for them..

If you are charitable, a lecture / moderate ass kicking on how rehearsing is perhaps a good thing(???) is always good but not a requirement.

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by Jules

Ditto, I have passed a ton of crappy or crazy bands on.. getting a trainee engineer to work with em is another good use for them..

If you are charitable, a lecture / moderate ass kicking on how rehearsing is perhaps a good thing(???) is always good but not a requirement.

I like the "what are you doing here wasting my time and your money" lecture.

The alternative here is if they hear themselves through my gear they will know they suck. I don't have a bunch of puff gear to mask their inabilites. It's all right on the table, naked as hell. Good or bad, it is what it is. No autotune or autosuck's here.

That's enough for them to go down the road or give it up, depending on their level of depression.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by Jules

Ditto, I have passed a ton of crappy or crazy bands on.. getting a trainee engineer to work with em is another good use for them..

If you are charitable, a lecture / moderate ass kicking on how rehearsing is perhaps a good thing(???) is always good but not a requirement.

yeah i did that with PINK..the label sent her to our studio to do a demo to see if they were gonna sign her

she couldn't sing and looked like #%##^ [ i had 2 criteria ..ya sing good or ya look good or even better both] so i gave the session to my assistant

nedless to say if i worked with her she probably would have liked me and i would have had my foot in the door to do her work

[simonv]

If they don't pay proper money for edition, then don't do it.
When I began a couple years ago, I was the king of rapid edition to the eyes of the clients, and they really went too far sometimes...

I remember composing trumpet solos with individual notes taken over 10 takes.
NEVER AGAIN!

If they suck, they suck.
If they pay me 30$/h to edit, fine, I will.

Don't waste your time and make them think that you're their little edit-pussy that they can use all day long.