Share Your Snare Secrets!

[opium89]

I am involved in a mixing project at the moment and would love hear what your secrets for a great snare sound are. Mine usually involve:

Gate/Compression - Usually Floorfish as a good start.
RComp - To smooth it over
EQ - Small boost @ 200 for weight, big boost at 3k, 6k for punch, and 12k-16k for cut.
Verb - Various combinations of small plate and a room.

I wish I knew more about what reverb settings others are using and how to apply them. So let's have it!

[Annex2]

Good OH placement and good room mic sound.

[lynyrd]

I have a hard surfaced hallway that runs along the side of my modest room. I point a 57 down that hall and blend it with my drum mix. I also compress this mic and because it sounds kind of harsh on the high end I sometimes de-ss it as well. It really adds dimension to my drums, particularly snare and hihat. You might try that, and ir won't cost you a ton of money.

[flail19]

Waitress: “Would you like some reverb with your snare?”
Me: “No, no thank you”.

[Marty J]

Originally Posted by Annex2

Good OH placement and good room mic sound.

+1

All the tweaking in the world won't get you a great snare if it's not recorded well (it might you a useable snare, but that's a different thing).

I like drums which owe most of their sound to the overheads. They sound much more natural to me. Might not be appropriate for the style of music you're doing though.

[Marty J]

Originally Posted by flail19

Waitress: “Would you like some reverb with your snare?”
Me: “No, no thank you”.

LOL!

[opium89]

Me: "What's you favorite shade of green?"

Slutz: "Red!"

Me: <shaking head>

Maybe those of you that actually use reverb on a snare and know how to apply it wouldn't mind chiming in here?

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by opium89

Me: "What's you favorite shade of green?"

Slutz: "Red!"

Me: <shaking head>

Maybe those of you that actually use reverb on a snare and know how to apply it wouldn't mind chiming in here?

There are a lot of ways of approaching it.
When mixing I generally have 3 verbs going at once.
A plate, room and hall.

Plate for attack- generally 1/2 a second with no predelay.
Room for density - often a 1.0 - 1.5 sec with 10ms of predelay
Hall for natural acousticness - generally longer 1.5sec and above, 15-20ms of predelay.

I might not use lots of reverb but there will generally be a small amount of reverb return in the mix.
Same reverbs for overheads and toms (if required on toms).
I feed a tiny amount of kick, bass, guitar and vocal in as well, not enough to hear it but I think it helps everything sit together better.

I generally compress the plate verb if it is a plugin to enhance the attack and maybe play around with the attack and release or use a transient designer on the reverb return.
I automate the hell out of the verb returns, in line with the emotional intensity of the song. When the singers gets into the shouty/screamy bit the plate goes up and the rest go down (enhancing the smash of the snare but not getting so wet as to make the song cloudy.)
It changes all the time though.

I also augment snares quite a lot with the bob clearmountain sample library.
Often I'll take two complimentary but different snare sounds (one short, one longer and darker) and put them in behind the original.
I line the hits up one by one in line with the snare top mic. It takes bloody ages but sounds great.

[Bang]

Here's a few:

The sound of the actual snare comes first. If you want it big and fat, dampen it and tune it lower, maybe use a maple shell. If you want it tight and cracky, tighten it and leave it open, try a brass shell. Know your snares.

Throw a bunch of mics on it. Give yourself some options.

Don't be a pussy with eq.

Put a little bit of mono reverb, like a Lexicon chamber, on the under snare mic to give it a bit more legnth and sizzle if you want that sound.

Compress with slow attack fast release for crack. medium attack and medium release for more thwack. Don't compress more then 3db or its going to start sounding choked.

Don't be a pussy with eq.

Reference in the mix, stop hitting the solo all the time.

and last but not least... don't be a pussy with eq.

[opium89]

I was reviewing the MILAR vid recently where Charles makes a copy of the existing snare and basically EQ's one dark and the other bright. Anyone employing this technique and what kind of settings and balance between the two are you using? He doesn't go in to too much detail about that particular detail.

[samwinston123]

Tell the drummer to hit it like it's a 2 dollar hooker.

[mixman499]

ayotte wood hoop snare or keplinger steel.

non-wimpy drummer

a few mics close the the drums...a few more farther away (one with an 1176 pegged...adjust release time to the track)

in the mix...make it LOUD.

finis.

[bdunard]

I have a problem with close mic'ing snares. They never almost sound natural, too tubby and usually not enough snare.

The next problem is that sometimes (if I'm just mixing) the only other tracks are OH's and they are a bit distant sounding.

I recommend taking a LDC and placing it to the the left of the drummers left shoulder pointed at the snare drum. This is usually 2' feet from point of stick contact. This gives you the sound as the drummer would hear it and the LDC usually gives it enough bite. However, be careful as to the off axis sounds of the HH they can really mess with your other sounds...and you are going to have HH bleed.

Blend this to taste.

However if a close top mic'd snare is all you got then I agree with Bang...don't be a pussy with the eq.

And most of all try to hear the snare sound you are going after and pick the closest available.

Oh yeah, and one more thing don't be afraid to tell the drummer you don't want rim shots. This seems very common amongst drummers today as they learn it helps cut through a mix. It does work but sometimes just a hit in the sweet spot is all the eq you need.

[peat]

definitely having a concrete hallway of some sort
chucking a mic in there and adding a bit in, along with room mics
really makes your snare stand out


another trick i use is to give the snare its own ambient signature
try giving it a delay of about 15 ms, just one delay
and then a small room reverb, make sure the pre-delay of the verb is more than 15 ms, otherwise it will mask your delay

the delay is like an early reflection, and the verb gives it some room
this gives the snare its own 'space'

this is also great for kick, vocal, anything that you want to stand out
make sure you use different delays for everything but, otherwise they will all have the same ambient signature.

[octatonic]

After my novel above I reaslise I have a question.

My way of mixing often means that I end up with a nice drum sound that takes up 70% of the sound field and then I have to go about whittling it down so the other instruments fit properly.

Anyone else have this problem?

It ends up being a balancing act between the size of the drums vs the size of everything else (especially the layered guitars).
Not trying to thread-jack but maybe we can talk about it as well.

[bogus]

I record drums in a _very_ dry and isolated room.. This tends to make the sound dull, but it helps me to control the drum sound better in a mixing situation.

As for the theories about getting the snare sound from the OH's there's a neat trick you could do. I like to eq my OH's to enrich the cymbals and pretty much cut below the cymbal's core frequencies.

BUT one trick I use quite often is: make a duplicate of the OH tracks, compress it to taste and tweak the eq to whatever settings make the snare come out. I sometimes add a little verb as an insert on this besides my auxed verb on the snare track.
I then gate the track and trigger it via sidechain with the existing snare signal.

This also works fine for room mics, especially if you got a decent sounding room (there's your predelay with ambience!)

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by opium89

I am involved in a mixing project at the moment and would love hear what your secrets for a great snare sound are. Mine usually involve:

Gate/Compression - Usually Floorfish as a good start.
RComp - To smooth it over
EQ - Small boost @ 200 for weight, big boost at 3k, 6k for punch, and 12k-16k for cut.
Verb - Various combinations of small plate and a room.

I wish I knew more about what reverb settings others are using and how to apply them. So let's have it!

It depends on the snare sound you've got, and the snare sound you want.

If you're in Pro Tools, try using the Digi Expander III with one of the snare presets. They're actually quite good.

For compression, I'd try something other than the Rcomp; I find it over-does the "warm" thing on snares, and makes them sound a bit dark and dull. Try either a really clean compressor (the Focusrite plug works, as will most DAW's built-in comps), or go the other way and get something REALLY aggressive. VCA-type stuff a la dbx or SSL (plugs can be had by the likes of Waves, URS, and others), or even FET-type 1176 stuff if you wanna really thicken the snare up (not usually my cup of tea, but I'm currently working on a record with a very famous producer who seems to really dig it). If you have any access to hardware (though it doesn't sound like you do), you'll have WAAAY better luck making snare compression happen. I like Distressors, dbx 165s and 165As, SSL channel comps, Al Smart C2s, Chandler TG-1s, and dbx 160Xs and 160XTs. The 160X and 160XT are the same thing, only the XT has the option of installing a transformer, though I've never seen one that actually uses one. They're really cheap (I've bought em for $150, and even as low as $100), and completely blow away most plug ins. I'd suggest you pick one up for your studio/home rig.

For plug in EQs, I really like the URS S and A series. The Waves R EQ can be really nice too. I generally use plugs to do the surgical thing (pre compressor), and use my desk to shape the tone a bit (usually post compressor), but not always. When I mix at home, where I have no outboard EQ, I tend to use the aforementioned plugs to boost 150-200, using a shelf, boost 2.5 - 3k with a bell, and boost 8 - 12k with a shelf using a very wide Q (to bring up a little 5 or 6k). The cuts I make depend largely on context. I should mention, I'm talking about either a top snare mic only, or a summed top and bottom snare, or a summed top and shell. I like to compress bottom snare mics to bring up as much rattle and fuzz and other "detail" as possible, and I brigthen the shit outta them!! Lot's of "air", 12 or 16k high shelf. Shell mics are great for making midrange boosts in the 500 to 800 range, and adding some snape in the 2-3 k area. Often when I do this, I find myself EQing the top snare mic way less. I also like to compress shell mics post-EQ, and use a really short attack and release time to create some sustain and body to blend under the top mic.

My preferred hardware EQs include actual Pultecs and the Tube Tech imitation Pultec, API 550s and 560s, Neve 1081s, Daking, and (my secret weapon) Wunder Audio. I forget the Wunder Audio's model number, but it's the one that mounts in a Neve rack. That thing KILLS on snare, as well as bass guitar. Trident channels are cool for snare EQing, and can be found for not too much money. I've got one (the S40) in my home rig and it works great.

Once I've conquered the compression/EQ thing, a little light limiting can really help to keep inconsistent playing under control and in-your-face, if that's the thing you're looking for (I do a lotta rock and metal so that's generally the case with me).

For ambience, I prefer a good-sounding room mic, but if that's unavailable, I use the same sort of approach you do. In plug in world, TL Space is cool for plates, and the UAD plate really rocks. Rverb is decent enough for rooms, but I prefer my trusty PCM 60 or even my Lexi 500. If I'm at the studio, the PCM 70 is obviously classic, and I really dig the 480L's "Snare Plate" program for the classic, big-rock snare sound. I also like "Medium Ambience" for putting a little air around things, but creating the illusion of a really dry snare (something a poster above expressed a preference for). I've also got a really cool old outboard spring reverb that can do wonders on a snare, when the time is right.

Last of all, if things still aren't rocking, a little parallel compression goes a long way. I've been spoiled by hardware lately, so I really like C2s (if I'm looking for snap), TG-1s (for weight), Manley Vari-mu (for power), and Distressors and 165s (for dirt). In the case of plugs, I've had really good luck with Bomb Factory's Fairchild, Digi's SMACK!, the Focusrite comp (I think it's called D3 or D2), and McDSP compressor bank in it's various incarnations.

Speaking of McDSP, the Analog Channel can be really helpful for tone shaping before you reach for an EQ.

Last of all, Digi's Reel Tape plugin is the ****ing bomb! I've been playing with that at the studio the last few mixes I've done and it really rocks. If you've got some peaky, "digital"-sounding snare tracks (usually the fault of poor mic choice/placement, NOT the medium!!!), the tape compression emulator can really smooth things out nicely.

Whew. That was the longest post ever. Hope it helps!

Off to work...

[bgrotto]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot:

I sometimes like to cheat a little bit by using a (gasp! moan! boo! hiss!)

SNARE SAMPLE!!!!

underneath the original.

Take a moment to compose yourself, now hear me out:

there's some really nice sounding roomy snares in the Bob Clearmountain sample collection, and if you compress the snare attack portion out of them, the ambience can add great power to drums recorded in a small or bad-sounding room, or drums recorded without a room mic. You're basically using the sample in place of a reverb.

There, now was that so bad?

[Akoppenheffer]

Anyone use a Transient Designer on snare? Or is that more of a tom thing?

[allencollins]

a room mic shot 7-8 feet away, about foot higher than the snare

[TheRealRoach]

Gate/Compression - Usually Floorfish as a good start.
RComp - To smooth it over
EQ - Small boost @ 200 for weight, big boost at 3k, 6k for punch, and 12k-16k for cut.
Verb - Various combinations of small plate and a room.

I never use gates on anything. But I do compress first in the chain. I think the Kjaerhus GCO-1 is one of the best in the box compressors (I don't use it to smooth it over but rather give it some smack).
EQ - I do always use it but it's never the same twice. Depends on the drum/player/song too much. I usually experiment with flipping phase around the kit to get the snare's tone in the right place.
Verb - I generally mix on the dry side of things. But i do like using delays a lot more than verb. Finding a good delay time and then a good EQ on the Delay's return can do some really cool things for the presence and bit of the kit. On the return I usually highpass at about 400-600 to avoid getting a tubby sound.

[opium89]

Originally Posted by octatonic

After my novel above I reaslise I have a question.

My way of mixing often means that I end up with a nice drum sound that takes up 70% of the sound field and then I have to go about whittling it down so the other instruments fit properly.

Anyone else have this problem?

It ends up being a balancing act between the size of the drums vs the size of everything else (especially the layered guitars).
Not trying to thread-jack but maybe we can talk about it as well.

For me it's all in how you EQ. I make huge scoops in the 200-1k range at times for various drums. This leaves a nice hole in the mix for everything else. I also make use of a spectrum analyzer to find what frequencies are being used by the various drums. This helps to isolate certain parts of the frequencies for cutting and boosting. Also, I never ignore my ears and gut instinct about what actually sounds right =)

[Musiclab]

for mixing some compression and eq. Generally I'm tracking using 2 mics on the snare one poking over the top of the rim and the other micing the shell. So they get, obviously different eq. I have a pair of these John Musgrave modded V series compressors that are great on snare drum so one for each. Eq wise I use either an amek 9098 or Daking 52270's on the snare. I dont use gates except as a send. The amount of room I use strictly depends on the track. If I want my room to be much bigger I will use transient designer on the room mics into a pair of compressors and eq to taste

[indie]

Originally Posted by Akoppenheffer

Anyone use a Transient Designer on snare? Or is that more of a tom thing?

YES. kills on snr.

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by opium89

I am involved in a mixing project at the moment and would love hear what your secrets for a great snare sound are. Mine usually involve:

Gate/Compression - Usually Floorfish as a good start.
RComp - To smooth it over
EQ - Small boost @ 200 for weight, big boost at 3k, 6k for punch, and 12k-16k for cut.
Verb - Various combinations of small plate and a room.

I wish I knew more about what reverb settings others are using and how to apply them. So let's have it!

Maybe stating the obvious, but sometimes tuning the snare to the song makes life so much more pleasant.

[opium89]

Originally Posted by travisbrown

Maybe stating the obvious, but sometime tuning the snare to the song makes life so much more pleasant.

What kind of tuning are you doing and what tools are you using to do it?

[scotty-o]

I hope I'm not stating the obvious but :

polarity, polarity, polarity

the push of a phase button can change your life

-Scotty

[Todd24]

Originally Posted by Akoppenheffer