headphone mixing?

[Disjointed]

just a quick question...

so if i have my mics all coming into my rack pres...
what is the best way to get a zero latency headphone mix out?? (they will A/D into Layla 24's after the pres)

would a splitter after the pres (1 into A/D.. 1 into headphone mixer) work?

signal loss?

thx in adv

[Chris]

I was actually wondering the same thing, but mine would be on a mixer and with me wanting to give different headphone mixes. Do people just use aux sends? Does that mean they're just sending mono mixes?

[TheRealRoach]

would a splitter after the pres (1 into A/D.. 1 into headphone mixer) work?

I think this "splitter" that you're talking about is a mixing console. You've just described what a good console will do for you.

Do people just use aux sends? Does that mean they're just sending mono mixes?

Aux Sends? Yes they are used for that a lot. You can also just send the whole stereo buss to the headphones. I personally like working this way and I know lots of engineers that like this as well (basically, what you hear in the control room, the talent hears in the headphones). But back to the aux sends... A lot of times this does mean that you are sending a mono mix, but it's dependent on the console. Some consoles have stereo aux sends.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by TheRealRoach

Aux Sends? Yes they are used for that a lot. You can also just send the whole stereo buss to the headphones. I personally like working this way and I know lots of engineers that like this as well (basically, what you hear in the control room, the talent hears in the headphones). But back to the aux sends... A lot of times this does mean that you are sending a mono mix, but it's dependent on the console. Some consoles have stereo aux sends.

What I do now is just send the main out, but my problem is with if the different members want different mixes. IE guitarist wants more of him, etc.

[TheRealRoach]

Then I would say keep everyone on the main bus and create a HP mix from one of the aux's. In my experience most musicians don't really care about mono/stereo headphone mix. Especially since a lot of guys i know only keep one headphone on and keep the other off so they can hear the room.

[andygomez]

yes all mono headphone mix's here from aux's 1-4 they usually dont care for stereo
hell some dont even know what stereo is.

[vaka]

When I'm recording as a musician, getting good levels is about a gazillion times more important than mono/stereo. I think most musicians feel the same way.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Disjointed

would a splitter after the pres (1 into A/D.. 1 into headphone mixer) work?

Yes, as Roach said you need a simple mixer. Here's how I do it:

Using a Mixer With a DAW

--Ethan

[Roy Harter]

Can anyone recommend a high-quality splitter, if your using external preamps, and monitoring through a console?
For example using a rack mounted 1073 as your pre, and monitoring through a Toft ATB. Recording into ProTools.

[TheRealRoach]

Ummmm maybe I didn't quite understand you properly but you wouldn't need a splitter (splitters are RARELY if at all needed EVER).

Check out Ethan Winer's post first of all because the link is quite informative. But just to summarize:

Microphone -> Mic Pre -> A/D Converter -> DAW -> D/A Converter -> Console monitor input.

BUT since we're talking about sending headphones mixes that must be zero-latency via the console, this isn't quite the case. In order to achieve zero-latency monitoring, the signal must be derived BEFORE the A/D-D/A conversion (since that is the point at which latency comes from).

Rather than explain how it might work on the ATB (I don't have one..) I will tell you how it works in an ideal situation on a large format console. Let's take the SSL4000 series. In this picture you can clearly see that there is a BIG fader, and a shorter fader just above it on EACH channel. For simplicities sake we'll ignore the many different routing options that the SSL provides and just stick with one: The big fader controls the level to Tape/DAW and the small fader controls the level FROM Tape/DAW (i.e. control room monitoring). SO, with this console, the headphone cues would get their signal before heading to tape.
Mic -> Mic Pre (Neve 1073)-> SSL Console Line In -> SSL Channel (EQs, Comps, AuxSends (for headphones)), Big Channel Fader (channel output to tape/DAW) -> A/D -> DAW -> D/A -> Little Channel Fader (monitor input).

So it's easy to see why large format consoles are killer. Endless routing possibilities. This in-line console format saves a lot of space too. If you wanted to do this on a console without two faders per channel, you would pretty much need two mixing boards of near equal size... yikes.

[Roy Harter]

Thanks Mike for your clarity. Ethan, your article is wonderful as well.

[Disjointed]

i appreciate all of your replies.. but it hasnt really answered my question....

my previous setup was a little mixer with 2 aux sends.. worked great for sending 2 zero-latency headphone mixes out..

now i am transitioning to rack based pres, in conjunction with a new older mixer (1 aux send).. problem is i need at least 2 headphone mixes (all, drums).. and i need to incorporate the rack pre signal as well...

even though the Layla (ADA) does in theory have 0 latency (stereo) monitoring, it is not, as far as i know, possible to mix this as 2 separate mixes... let alone easily combine the 2 laylas monitor signals..

i would really like to have some kind of cheap-o 16 channel mixer as a multi headphone mix box... though i believe i cannot go into this first without horrible signal degradation...

i thought a splitter post pre would be the best solution, but i am open to any ideas (besides selling my soul for a SSL 4000)

thx

[TheRealRoach]

Hah, Sorry we got off on a bit of tangent there. Any opportunity to talk about an SSL is taken. [I would sell my soul for an SSL]

Anyway, I'm afraid that if you don't have enough sends then you don't have enough sends and you'll be forced to conjure up some Frankenstein approach (nothing wrong with that at all, but I won't be able to help ya with that).

If you DO want to split the signal, you need to do it properly to avoid degradation in sound through changing the load to the mic as you plug it into different destinations at the same time (load being measured in "ohms"). The company called WhirlWind has the largest selection of tools to do this.

Depend on how many mics you need to split, it may just be easier for you to get a mixing console that suits your needs.

[psycho_monkey]

I'd be wary of using splitters.

two options I can think of:

have a mixer for monitoring, that the Laylas run into 1-1 (ie kick goes to input 1 and comes out of output 1 into desk), and use that to derive monitor mixes, using 2 or more mixes.

change the laylas for something that has a cuemix system built in (like MOTU hardware), so you can use say outputs 1+2 for control room, 3+4 for cuemix one etc and you can balance the levels using the cuemix software.

As someone who occasionally steps across to the other side of the glass, a short spell in the vocal booth reminds you how much a headphone mix can improve or destroy a performance.