Mono- mixing in and checking for reference

[dnaflr2]

I have read several references preaching that mixing in mono, or often just using as a reference point can do wonders for balancing a mix. How technically are you all doing this?

I have read that just flicking the mono button on the console is not they way to go about this. Do you all have an actual single mono speaker that is fed by another output on your console??

Could I get by if I hit mono, and only listened to 1 speaker. Obviously I would be leaning over to the left or right monitor, but I often shift positions somewhat when mixing to here the effects of the room etc.

[smoke]

I have read this a few times referring to checking your mix in mono, to make sure it's balanced for those who will be listening to your final product thru mono sources. Would suck to do a bunch of designer panning, and the end user has a cheap casio radio... they won't get it.

Another similar thing is checking the mix with the volume very low... to see if any low freq still comes thru.

[recall]

I use an ipod docking station about 12-15 feet away at a moderate level. Start my mixes on this. Tells me very little about the treble but it is fantastic for sorting my low mids out. This is essentially mono as any panning doesn't come across from this distance.

Flip back to my Adam A7's and modify from there.

Mono is very much your friend.

[KaizenMusician]

hey, not trying to be a prick but why would u care what it sounds like on a crappy mono radio? I can understand that you have to mix for many formats including crappy stereo car speakers but I don't think anyone would ever be judged from something like that, either by a fan or an industry person... point i'm making is i don't know why you need to reference in mono.. anyway if anyone has any convincing arguments, let me know.

cheers

[orksnork]

phase

[KaizenMusician]

well yeah, obviously that one e

[gsqd]

Yep, phase is your biggest enemy with regards to mono compatibility. If you don't check it your huge stereo guitars might simply disappear one day!!

GM

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by KaizenMusician

hey, not trying to be a prick but why would u care what it sounds like on a crappy mono radio? I can understand that you have to mix for many formats including crappy stereo car speakers but I don't think anyone would ever be judged from something like that, either by a fan or an industry person... point i'm making is i don't know why you need to reference in mono.. anyway if anyone has any convincing arguments, let me know.

cheers

Because a large percentage of the world still listens to, or at least recieves music in mono form. Take MTV or Fuse for example... the signal leaves their broadcast station in stereo... gets beamed all over the place bouncing from satellite to satellite and going through a zillion patch panels before it makes it to the local cable station in Okeefenokee Wisconson where it gets patched through more processing before little Jimmy & Jamie flip on the TV & listen to the music. Even though the signal LEFT in true stereo, by the time it goes through all that stuff the end result is a collapsed stereo image or full-on mono.

That's not really the "ideal" time to figure out that your guitars disapper or maybe bury the lead vocal in mono.

Some internet radio & a lot of audio there ends up being mono or close to it. Single speaker clock radios are still being sold... Lots of FM radio stations and some AM still broadcast, or at least recieved in mono as well... XM & Sirius satellite radio are stereo, although a VERY reduced width stereo. Most PA systems from small clubs to large festivals are also run mono...

I'll use the mono button on the desk and do a lot of balancing in mono... Sometimes checking on the Dyn's but I also have a set of 4" rat shackers several feet away stacked on top of each other. They're putting "stereo" into the room but with the single-point source & distance they're percieved as mono at mix position or anywhere else in the room.

I also use the little speaker built into the Studer meterbridge an awful lot.

[pkautzsch]

Since I'm starting my mixes in mono, mixing happens much faster. Especially EQ and levels is so much easier when you listen in mono. Pan it, reverb it, burn it. Sort of.

[Sigma]

CSG

compatible stereo generator..you need one to really see what happens going from stereo to mono

[Jarick]

I mix the same way as PK. I do all of my editing, EQ, dynamics, even basic levels on one speaker. That reduces phase and listening environment factors to a great degree. If the mix sounds clean and full on one speaker, then I pan everything and tweak the levels. Mixes happen much faster and I find translate easier doing this than starting in stereo.

[lord_bunny]

Originally Posted by KaizenMusician

hey, not trying to be a prick but why would u care what it sounds like on a crappy mono radio? I can understand that you have to mix for many formats including crappy stereo car speakers but I don't think anyone would ever be judged from something like that, either by a fan or an industry person... point i'm making is i don't know why you need to reference in mono.. anyway if anyone has any convincing arguments, let me know.

cheers

It's cheap to do (find the crappiest little speaker available) and there's nothing better IMO for finding where the vocal should sit than on a small mono speaker. You also find out very quickly if the sides of the mix are compatible.

A mix that sounds great in mono will sound better in stereo than a mix made without consideration for mono. Mixing in stereo can allow you to be sloppy with the eq and not make the appropriate space for every element.

There is a long thread about which kind of speakers people are using when they switch to mono. I use an awful computer speaker from the mid-90's.

[Andreas G]

Originally Posted by dnaflr2

Do you all have an actual single mono speaker that is fed by another output on your console??

No, I just use the mono button. Works good enough for me to discover issues in a mix.

Andreas

[Sigma]

HAECO introduced the SC-1, a quality stereo disc recording head, and the more sophisticated SC-2, a moving coil, dynamic feed-back cutter; the CSG-2 (Compatible Stereo Generator) and its quadraphonic cousin, the CSG-4; and the SD-240 Stereodriver Amplifier, a superior driving system.
His last innovation, the HAECO VP1000 fully automated Variable Pitch
Depth Lathe Control System, uses a 300-millisecond digital delay line which makes an advance preview head unnecessary, thereby revolutionizing the art of disc mastering, Howard Holzer pioneered stereo disc mastering and designed and con-
structed some of the first quadraphonic mastering systems in the world. For these and other contributions to the audio industry, the Audio Engineering
1 Society made him a Fellow in 1965.



From Wikapedia

boy is the dude biased or what?

the HAECO-CSG or Holzer Audio Engineering-Compatible Stereo Generator system was an analog electronic device and method developed by Holzer Audio Engineering in Los Angeles in the 1960's during the years of transition from monaural to stereophonic popular music recording. The lead vocals and instruments in a stereophonic mix would often sound too loud to the mix engineers when they heard them playing back on monaural AM radio stations and when played on monaural record players, because when the left and right channels were added together, the lead vocals or instruments, equal in level on both channels, would add up to be 3 decibels louder than any instruments in just the left or right channels alone. The idea beind HAECO-CSG was to create stereophonic records that when played on monaural equipment and radio stations, would "fold-down" to monaural properly.
The system actually took material intended for the center and phase shifted it so that it appeared both in-phase and 90 degrees out-of-phase simultaneously, so that when played on a monaural player, the out-of-phase material would lower the center-panned material by the 3 decibels, allowing the monaural mix have to the same component levels as the stereophonic mix. Unfortunately, the system also "blurred" the focus of the lead vocals and instruments panned to the center, making headphone listening particularly un-natural sounding compared to a traditional stereophonic mix with a coherent, in-phase center, to which listeners of stereophonic material had become accustomed.
Haeco-CSG is so hated by many audio engineers and audio conossieurs that it is called a disease, one which infects the sound making it "Ill", just like a virus or a disease which infects the human body causing sickness or death.

[thenoiseflower]

Interesting...


Ill monitor in it (mono) from the start of a mix, getting levels on the board, making my HPFing, panning for the key stereo shit if there is a phase issue, i just go by phase and stop. This the best point to use the IBPs on ANYTHING if I want to it. my ears are virgin and will hear this stuff better and later on it can be hard to find its window.
Then EQ balance, and any reverb tuning... and by this point I've had in mono for a few hours, and I push the red mono button on the avocet OFF and start tweeking in stereo from there, usualy it sounds pretty killer the moment I press that mono button off the first time. thats moment is fun.

keep working in stereo and go back and keep checking mono for panning/levels and distorion/reverb/effects tracks especially. Checking in mono is good practice too,
Some AE's dont... And thats cool too, I just think its harder to start a mix in stereo than in mono.

[theblotted]

using a single RadioShack Minimus7 to check mono. somehow, it's a lot easier to get translation for levels on this than my NS10's or 824's.

and no, hitting the mono button for stereo monitors don't give you the same result as single monitor. ymmv.

[dnaflr2]

Originally Posted by theblotted

and no, hitting the mono button for stereo monitors don't give you the same result as single monitor. ymmv.

That was exactly my question.. I don't think alot of people understood it correctly. Listening to your speakers and just flipping the mono switch is not what we are really talking about here.

So back to my main question- do you all just have a dedicated single speaker plugged into another send on your console to hear this??

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by dnaflr2

That was exactly my question.. I don't think alot of people understood it correctly. Listening to your speakers and just flipping the mono switch is not what we are really talking about here.

So back to my main question- do you all just have a dedicated single speaker plugged into another send on your console to hear this??

No, but it's better than not checking at all. You'll certainly notice anything that disappears because of phase issues.

If your speakers are powered, you can flip to mono and turn one speaker off (or cut it, if you've got a monitor controller that can do that).

[recall]

No I don't have a dedicated 1 speaker. I se my ipod dock. Since it is so far away and the speakers on it are so close to gether anyway I don't do any panning on it at all.

Essentially I will start my mix on it with all faders set to center and start carving with hpf's etc

My guess is this:

1 speaker mono = ideal

mono sum = very useful and usually sufficient

[theblotted]

Originally Posted by dnaflr2

That was exactly my question.. I don't think alot of people understood it correctly. Listening to your speakers and just flipping the mono switch is not what we are really talking about here.

So back to my main question- do you all just have a dedicated single speaker plugged into another send on your console to hear this??

dnaflr2,

just get a mono speaker and a monitor switcher, give it a listen yourself. you'll hear the difference in person, and thank yourself for it.

many here have recommended a Fostex 6301B or Avantone for this purpose. i'm using the Minimus cuz i found it for $8 @ Salvation Army... tho powered with Alesis RA-100, a bit noisy with slight hum. talk about "real world"...

[reddirt]

Yep , one spkr, separate send placed dead centre at the same distance and apparant volume as the mains.
It's a give and take situation as anything panned hard will lose 3db in mono; on the flip, it's very good for the core vox/sn/kik/bass relationships.
One further thing - if you record anything in M-S it's volume will be shot in mono playback as the out of phase sides collapse to zero; it's a great sound in full stereo but disconcerting to hear that m-s instrument largely disappear on a non stereo tv/clock radio or as in my case 2 local am stations.
Back to the question ; mono is a necessity for my mixes and I'll be replacing my current Mordaunt Short with an Avantone mixcube asap.
Cheers, Ross
P.S. Check out how well the work of top mixers translates in mono (Bob Clearmountain etc)

[theblotted]

Originally Posted by reddirt

It's a give and take situation as anything panned hard will lose 3db in mono

assuming that pan law is set to 0dB, yes.

[andychamp]

Originally Posted by dnaflr2

So back to my main question- do you all just have a dedicated single speaker plugged into another send on your console to hear this??

The control room feature in Cubase4 is great for doing that: my output A goes in stereo to a pair of Tannoys, output B is mono to a single Sony computer speaker.
Et voilà: mono compatibility AND consumer listening conditions just 1 mouseclick away!thumbsup

[TYY]

In sonar, I just click the mono button on the master fader and pan it all the way over. It is great for starting a mix because things fight for space; you can't just pan one track away from another and solve the problem. It forces you to use proper EQ and also to put things in their proper front-to-back space with ambience. Then when you open it up in stereo your mix will be much bigger and translate better.

Works for me.

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by KaizenMusician

hey, not trying to be a prick but why would u care what it sounds like on a crappy mono radio? I can understand that you have to mix for many formats including crappy stereo car speakers but I don't think anyone would ever be judged from something like that, either by a fan or an industry person... point i'm making is i don't know why you need to reference in mono.. anyway if anyone has any convincing arguments, let me know.

cheers

AM radio. Programmers will toss anything that has phase problems.

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by dnaflr2

That was exactly my question.. I don't think alot of people understood it correctly. Listening to your speakers and just flipping the mono switch is not what we are really talking about here.

So back to my main question- do you all just have a dedicated single speaker plugged into another send on your console to hear this??

Used to use a single Auratone sitting on the meter bridge for this. I've been meaning to find another.

I find listening in mono through a centre speaker when tracking vocals reveals tuning issues more readily than when listening in a sea of stereo.

[VictorQ]

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

I also use the little speaker built into the Studer meterbridge an awful lot.

+1! That little thing is amazing! So crappy yet so slutty.

[gainreduction]

A friend of mine assisted Tony Maserati once and said he spent quite a lot of time on the studer speaker. Especially setting vocal levels.

I've seen him mention it in interviews aswell.

BTW, how do you guys deal with vocal levels when mixing in mono ? To me when the vocal is ok in stereo, it's too upfront in mono and when it's ok in mono it's a little buried in stereo.

[r0ck1r0ck2]

and then there's that correlation meter..

yayyy for studer speaker/corrleation meter!

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by VictorQ

+1! That little thing is amazing! So crappy yet so slutty.

I can't tell 'ya how many times I've flipped from cranked mains to the tiny Studer speaker and somebody lounging at the back of the room will catch something... kick drum getting lost or the solo's just a bit too loud next to the vocal...

Love it!