Best way to emulate Strumming?

[jenkel16]

The only option I could think of involves recording a guitar

[lowfreq33]

You could always get a midi guitar system. It converts pitch to midi, which you can use to trigger your synth sound. Roland makes one, Axon makes one.

You could try short delays, or an arpegiator set really fast.

[J.S.Vega III]

The sound would have to have a fast attack, to give the impression of being picked. Obviously you won't ever get something like a pad to strum for example.

I'd also play it on a keyboard for a humanized feel, rather than program it.

The only other suggestion I have is that you take your sound and layer a more attacky sound on top of it. This could be a real guitar, if it's far back enough it might provide the strum effect without sounding too obvious. Or you could layer up with synth guitar sound for that destiny's child effect... (well maybe not)

[joeq]

I remember back in the early days of MIDI, some company came out with a box that just did strumming. It was a small MIDI device that went between your keyboard and your sequencer.

you would simply hold a chord on your keyboard and this device would strum the notes- up and down, down and up, down and down, etc. It had a lot of options and could lock to the beat of of your song.

I believe it also did fingerpicking. If you wanted to be extra realistic you could make sure the notes of the chords you played were 'spread out' like guitar and not clustered right next to each other like a keyboard. With normal keyboard inversions, it might sound more like an autoharp than a guitar...

I wish I could remember the name of the box for you, but it is long gone from the old memory banks. I vaguely recall that this was one of several products that did various tricks to the the MIDI signal flow... maybe there was one that did a MIDI echo or something like that.

You could try calling a place that deals in old keyboard stuff, like Rogue in NYC, or maybe find a forum that talks about those kinds of old pieces.



On the other hand, I know one guy who developed the skill to do it all with his fingers in a most convincing manner.

[hduncan]

what about sculpture? does that emulate the attack of the pick? or just the vibrating string?

[jchas]

Originally Posted by joeq

I remember back in the early days of MIDI, some company came out with a box that just did strumming. It was a small MIDI device that went between your keyboard and your sequencer.

you would simply hold a chord on your keyboard and this device would strum the notes- up and down, down and up, down and down, etc. It had a lot of options and could lock to the beat of of your song.

I believe it also did fingerpicking. If you wanted to be extra realistic you could make sure the notes of the chords you played were 'spread out' like guitar and not clustered right next to each other like a keyboard. With normal keyboard inversions, it might sound more like an autoharp than a guitar...

I wish I could remember the name of the box for you, but it is long gone from the old memory banks. I vaguely recall that this was one of several products that did various tricks to the the MIDI signal flow... maybe there was one that did a MIDI echo or something like that.

You could try calling a place that deals in old keyboard stuff, like Rogue in NYC, or maybe find a forum that talks about those kinds of old pieces.



On the other hand, I know one guy who developed the skill to do it all with his fingers in a most convincing manner.

Oberheim Strummer

And I believe Casio had a device out too. It had 6 nylon strings that you could pick or strum while holding down a chord on the keyboard - don't know the name of that one though

I guess it wasn't Casio - found one on ebay - Digitar
Digitar by Charlie lab Midi Guitar Strummer Rare - (eBay item 250164536281 end time Sep-19-07 09:51:56 PDT)


and heres the Strummer
OBERHEIM STRUMMER MIDI MODULE -GUITAR PLAYING FROM KEYS - (eBay item 220150162779 end time Sep-19-07 01:49:42 PDT)

[Stiff]

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

I want to use Massive to make a synth tone that I like, and then I want to apply some sort of filter or something over it to make it sound like it's being strummed...


Is Logic Pro 8's "sculpture" a filter? or a standalone instrument?

Basically, I want to be able to program a pretty believable "strummed" synth instrument to replace a rhythm guitar.

I do NOT want to record a real guitar.

One way to do it would be to record the notes at a slow speed then time stretch them A LOT. In Pro Tools you could just use the time stretch tool for this on a MIDI region and it would take a matter of seconds. I'm sure you can do something similar in most DAWs.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by jchas

and heres the Strummer
OBERHEIM STRUMMER MIDI MODULE -GUITAR PLAYING FROM KEYS - (eBay item 220150162779 end time Sep-19-07 01:49:42 PDT)

interesting. I went to the auction (sold, BTW for $91) The seller mentioned that he has replaced this unit with a new device called a Genoqs Octopus, which apparently does strumming and other things as well.

http://www.genoqs.com/

website is slower than molasses in January.

[jchas]

Originally Posted by joeq

interesting. I went to the auction (sold, BTW for $91) The seller mentioned that he has replaced this unit with a new device called a Genoqs Octopus, which apparently does strumming and other things as well.

genoQs Machines - start

website is slower than molasses in January.

I had the Oberheim for a few years, I used it on a couple tunes and it gave a fairly realistic strum to a decent acoustic guitar sample. It had something like 18 variations to the strum pattern. The problem for me was that I never wanted to
take the time to program CC changes to have it swap strum styles during a performance. I would let the same strum pattern play throughout the song which was quite boring and a testament to my laziness. I found it hard, but worth the effort, to learn to emulate the playing style of a guitar player.

I always thought the Digitar looked interesting. Just strum away with feeling and play the actual chord with the left hand. I've since picked up a Casio PG380 MIDI guitar which does it too - but you actually have to know how to play guitar and that leaves me out - my guitar player likes it though.

[jomo1234]

This is a pic of The Strummer. Sadly it doesnt even come close to sounding like a real strummed instrument.

[dbbubba]

I play both GTR and KYBDs (for MANY years) and I'll tell you why it really is difficult to emulate what a GTR sounds like when you strum it....

The structure of the chord being played.

Think of a plain average E played on guitar.

E (the root)
B (up a 5th)
E (octave of the root)
G# (the third and octave above the actual root)
B (up and octabe and a 5th)
E (the root two octave above the initial E)

Figure out that fingering on a a KYBD and then move to the next chord.
Suppose it is G maj

G (root)
B (3rd)
D (5th)
G (octave)
B (3rd up an octave)
G (the root up two octaves)

See how the KYBD fingering/ chord voicing is completely different than GTR chord voicing? The third changes octaves for one thing.

Add in a few more chords and it gets VERY difficult to emulate the voicing of a GTR's chording.

Now, if you just want I/V/I power chords it is easier.

This also why arpegiators and "chord emulation" devices sound wrong.
Try emulating finger picking now!

It is also very difficult to emulate KYBD voicing on GTR, too.

[yeloocproducer]

If this synth can be played via midi... then: Suzuki Omnichord. Secret weapon. Cheap used on eBay, make sure it is a model with midi. have fun.

[jchas]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

This also why arpegiators and "chord emulation" devices sound wrong.

Agreed. It will never sound quite right. But for a keyboardist/drummer who could never quite wrap his brain (and more importantly his left hand) around a guitar it can still be fun to see how close you can get.

Originally Posted by dbbubba

Try emulating finger picking now!

I was actually asked to do that on project - to double the acoustic guitar with a guitar sample. It took quite a while doing a couple measures at a time figuring out the patterns, and of course it still didn't sound 'real', but it made a nice sounding layer.

Originally Posted by dbbubba

It is also very difficult to emulate KYBD voicing on GTR, too.

Which I found out after getting the MIDI guitar. My guitar player would player would mess around with organ/piano patches but it all sounded unnatural.

[hduncan]

I am coming from a programming perspective, so reproducing the voicings is less important to me, I can easily program them...
what I am looking for, is some way to gate or emulate the synth being played by a guitar... a harsh, dirty synth with the scratchy string strumming keeping it pulsing.

maybe just having a sampler that randomly accesses several "strum" samples, and have it play synchronized with the synth notes.. so that if the synth notes are every 1/4, the strumm will occur every 1/4 so it sounds like the strum sample is part of the synth...

what happens to the sound coming out of a guitar when you strum it? the previous ringing notes dont stop and the new ones start... its more like perpetuating something that was already occuring...

how do you represent that with midi notes? its almost more like you should have the volume of the synth DIP right as the strum sample is hit.. maybe by sidechaining a compressor or something..

what do you all think of this?

[bit mangler]

The Korg Karma has a few strumming algos(GEs) which are quite convincing.They have tried emulating actual strumming

[drxcm]

logic pro can do 'strumming', if you edit the qflam parameter in the quantise options, you can strum up or down

[raal]

the best way is grab a guitar, assume correct chord positions, and make strumming movements without actually touching the strings. put your favorite tune on while making that movement and look in the mirror. works pretty good. you can also emulate singing this way, but the important thing is not to let your vocal chords make any sound in the process. could ruin the whole thing.

sorry.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by raal

the best way is grab a guitar, assume correct chord positions, and make strumming movements without actually touching the strings. put your favorite tune on while making that movement and look in the mirror. works pretty good. you can also emulate singing this way, but the important thing is not to let your vocal chords make any sound in the process. could ruin the whole thing.

sorry.

That's how Ashlee Simpson does it!

ohhh

[hduncan]

I recently came upon a program called soundhack for apple computers, where you can merge two sound files. what I was thinking was, I could record the scratchy strumming of a guitar, or maybe of something that wont produce an audible note, and then merge it with a synth tone... I am going to try it..

[Kiwiburger]

Just buy Steinberg Virtual Guitarist and be done with it. Nothing is going to fool a guitar player, but it's a sound in itself that's valid for some things.

Virtual Guitarist 2 :: Steinberg Media Technologies GmbH

Otherwise - why not exploit keyboard sounds that could substitute for strummed guitar, but obviously sound nothing like a strummed guitar. E.g. "trance gates" and stuff like that, which impart rythmic variations by modulating amplitude, panning, delays, filters, etc.

Maybe you could get some samples of percussive guitar clicks and crunches and layer them into synth sounds.

Better still, buy a damn guitar and learn to play - should be a piece of piss for a keyboard player, being higher up the evolutionary scale and all ...

[hduncan]

My goal is to do something new, or uncommon. I dont want to use a guitar unless it is significantly altered. I think that a synth can be a lot heavier than a guitar if used correctly, but the scratchyness of guitar strings and their randomness draw me, so I want to combine them into something else.

[Kiwiburger]

Have you tried a convolution reverb? Not for reverb - but as a means of convolving one sound with another. For example, you could make a rythmic sample loop of something heavy and percussive, like maybe hammering on an anvil, or an industrial saw slowed down or something. Then convolve your synth sound using that sample in your IR software. Or vice versa. You can get some really munted sounds that way.

[initialsBB]

Just use a vocoder with a strummed guitar sound as the speech input. It should sound pretty cool and impart the rhythmic feeling of the guitar strum to your synth patch.

[Sofine]

Originally Posted by bit mangler

The Korg Karma has a few strumming algos(GEs) which are quite convincing.They have tried emulating actual strumming

Yeah, Korg Oasys and M3 both have Karma 2.0 and ribbon pads. Some of the patches create a very very realistic strumming simulation using the ribbon pad - moving your finger accross it plays the strings at the speed you move along the ribbon pad (and plays the notes you hold down).

This is sent out as midi data too - NICE....

Expensive way to achieve your goal though, unless you are looking for a workstation anyway....

[jamwerks]

You might want to check out Real Guitar or Real Strat by Musiclab. If you want some very useable and sometimes "perfect" guitar sounds, it pretty amazing. They have some good videos on their site.

[hduncan]

I am liking the convolution and vocoder ideas. sound similar to this soundhack program I saw. Thanks for your ideas