Should churches pay their musicians and engineers?

[lowfreq33]

Someone started this conversation on craigslist, and I thought I'd bring it over here.

So what do you think?

[e-cue]

I believe churches should pay for goods and services the same way as any other business.

[musicl]

What usually happens, do the organ players get paid?

If the the establishment/church chooses people to do it for free or pay them, it's up to them to use what product/musicians/engineers/electricity company/candle makers/etc they want. I know this sounds like a business point of view...read on.

People should never do things for free if THEY don't want to. It's fake and makes for a rubbishy service otherwise. Where does this stop? If it was some kind of law churches don't have to pay out, we'd see 'churches' sprouting up everywhere when in fact they would be underhanded businesses that are capitalising on the fact they get free engineers and are really clubs or discos with a church name. Then again, many people do things for churches for free because of their faith which is fair enough. It's a two way thing.

i can see this conversation getting nasty in terms of faith, ethics, etc. I don't know if i should have replied to this post, it's going to be an upsetting subject... I hope not. Let's play nice!

[AlexLakis]

Yes, of course. Churches bring in a lot of money (if they're smart churches.) Our church pays our organ player, choir director, etc.. Of course, there are volunteers (my grandmother volunteers to run the church bookstore for example, and sometimes I help out...I also sing in the choir sometimes, but I wouldn't accept money for that even if they offered it to me...unless they paid me to NOT sing, which they might eventually do.)

The bottom line is, anybody can volunteer to do anything for free. But if there are no volunteers, you'll have to pay somebody to do it. Make sense?

[joelpatterson]

It's always quite jarring to me when I see a priest driving a car.

I mean... if the guy really had an insider's relationship with God, he wouldn't need a car, God would just float him around where he needed to go.

It just kind of pulls the veil off of everything... like when you hear someone on the BBC stumble, start to read the wrong thing, correct themselves, curse under their breath.

It reveals that these illusions that we all labor under are just not real.

[mic anon]

Originally Posted by AlexLakis

The bottom line is, anybody can volunteer to do anything for free. But if there are no volunteers, you'll have to pay somebody to do it. Make sense?

Yeah what he said

[mic anon]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

It's always quite jarring to me when I see a priest driving a car.

I mean... if the guy really had an insider's relationship with God, he wouldn't need a car, God would just float him around where he needed to go.

It just kind of pulls the veil off of everything... like when you hear someone on the BBC stumble, start to read the wrong thing, correct themselves, curse under their breath.

It reveals that these illusions that we all labor under are just not real.

Huh?

[PlugHead]

FWIW,

I don't think I've EVER done a church gig where I didn't get paid, and paid ON TIME at either the beginning or end of the service.

I guess I've been fortunate enough to have all church service gigs pay, and pay WELL. I still gig regularly with an organist/musical director at a nearby church, who happens to be a red hot jazzer, and gigs tons (and he's 75!!!) and always makes sure the church knows the value of music and musicians - it's one of the only reasons the church still has a congregation 186 years later...

Musicians MUST get paid for their work!!!

[patrox247]

Do you really think God is cheap (He is the King of Kings)? Of course the professionals that are rendering services should get paid. There are those who are in a position financially to donate their services (and that is a blessing), but that isn't the majority. Most musicians I know really need the money to pay the bills. Christians should be held to a higher standard than the rest of the world, and should always try to surpass expectations. This translates into giving more! Not less! Loving thy neighbor means doing right by him/her in every aspect of life, which includes financially. Just my 2 cents.

[opium89]

Originally Posted by e-cue

I believe churches should pay for goods and services the same way as any other business.

Ya, including tax!

[shanabit]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

It's always quite jarring to me when I see a priest driving a car.

I mean... if the guy really had an insider's relationship with God, he wouldn't need a car, God would just float him around where he needed to go.

It just kind of pulls the veil off of everything... like when you hear someone on the BBC stumble, start to read the wrong thing, correct themselves, curse under their breath.

It reveals that these illusions that we all labor under are just not real.

Apparently as long as I can FLOAT to the church, then I should get paid Way to stay on topic there.

[shanabit]

Originally Posted by opium89

Ya, including tax!

Well if we are to apply your logic on this one then ALL NON-PROFIT entities should pay tax, including our government. Non-profits dont pay tax as their financial structure is NOT set up to make PROFIT by definition.
You cant single out religious organizations to pay tax and let all the other ones not pay. Bad logic here IMO. I think it would be great to make ALL businesses FOR PROFIT and get rid of the NON-Profit/budgetary wastefulness we have.

[FFTT]

There's a bunch of new multi-million dollar MEGA churches sprouting up around here
like mushrooms and that money had to come from somewhere.

In my view, these are tax free businesses taking advantage of every opportunity they
can to generate money.

Salvation by guilt, delusion and deception with clergy living high on the hog.

So yes, I would expect payment without any second thoughts.

[HudHudson]

I think it's up to the church and the musicians or techs, like any transaction. Many musicians & sound techs I know offer their services to their place of worship for free as a gift; I have never taken a dime for a performance at a church but have performed for some larger congregations whose entire band is paid and have a full-time paid music worship director. If a church is featuring a known artist who performs full-time, I think he/she should get paid.

[mic anon]

to serve requires some form of work so why not pay em, I mean people make it seem like money is evil or something.

It isn't like God owes you something its more like a reward.

[FFTT]

Looks for his copy of Wind Up by Jethro Tull

When I was young and they packed me off to school
And taught me how not to play the game,
I didnt mind if they groomed me for success,
Or if they said that I was a fool.
So I left there in the morning
With their God tucked underneath my arm --
Their half-assed smiles and the book of rules.
So I asked this God a question
And by way of firm reply,
He said -- Im not the kind you have to wind up on sundays.
So to my old headmaster (and to anyone who cares):
Before Im through Id like to say my prayers --
I dont believe you:
You had the whole damn thing all wrong --
Hes not the kind you have to wind up on sundays.
Well you can excomunicate me on my way to sunday school
And have all the bishops harmonize these lines --
How do you dare tell me that Im my fathers son
When that was just an accident of birth.
Id rather look around me -- compose a better song
`cos thats the honest measure of my worth.
In your pomp and all your glory youre a poorer man than me,
As you lick the boots of death born out of fear.
I dont believe you:
You had the whole damn thing all wrong --
Hes not the kind you have to wind up on sundays.

[indie]

I agree with AlexLakis. If churches want a full time orchestra leader, they usually pay. Volunteer musicians in that orchestra are totally different...BUT it depends on the individual church and circumstance. Start up churches can't afford to have everyone on paid staff -- and some churches never get to the point where they can afford to place everyone as paid staff members.

Many people in church orchestras want to give their time to their church. I think it also depends on the time demand of the music program in that church. If it's a small church, volunteers are the norm. Large churches can afford to pay for a high quality music program.

[jchas]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

It reveals that these illusions that we all labor under are just not real.

There are things in life which we 'choose' to believe - and to not believe them make them no less real. However, as a hobbyist engineer I can believe that my Mackie mixer is as good as an SSL or Neve - but perhaps should stay out of conversations where my beliefs are either OT or can easilly be proven otherwise...

Biblically, all those who have done God's work were volunteers, relying entirely on the good will of other believers for their needs. It wasn't until the corporate church was established that some became 'professionals' in paid positions.

As AlecLakis stated, most smaller churches pay the music leader and a couple other designated positions they consider to be semi-permanent and within the churches budget. Other positions are considered voluntary until which time that position is deemed necessary, and therefor worth increasing the budget. If your church requires a sound system to operate (most truly do not - yet it makes the service more enjoyable) and none of the volunteering staff can run it, it will become a paid position. Larger churches typically have a paid engineer on staff, but still rely on volunteers to do the bulk of the work. Same is true for musicians. If a larger church has a regular, and very involved music group, they typically will pay them (though typically not scale), but will still employ dozens of extra's to help round out the music and perhaps hundreds to rotate as choir members.

It's up to you if you feel it necessary to be paid, and up to them if they feel your services are actually necessary. I've always felt that I would give what I was able to give and balance it off with a smaller financial offering. I setup and troubleshot the system, played drums, and 'borrowed' my live rig for outside services for 20 years. Occasionally i'd ask myself the same question, should I be getting paid?, but deep down felt good about what I was doing - so never asked. I recently started going to a different, larger church where i'm not involved at all. Not because I grew tired of helping, I grew tired of my old churches theology.

[allencollins]

church is a business so yes

[Oldone]

The choir director yes. All the rest should be volunteers who have a gift they are willing to share for the praise of God. It's all about the giving.

[kafka]

Yeah, they have to pay for their land, rent, construction, energy, fuel, transportation and advertising, so why not musicians and engineers also? If they can get this out of donations, then more power to them. If you want to donate your services, then go ahead. But if you want to get paid, just make it clear how much so there's no heartburn later.

[jimmyjimjim]

Honestly man, I think God would want you to rather give the money you should earn on that gig to someone which needs them, being your rent, your children, or someone in need, god doesn't need your services or money. The Church however might want you to, but do not mistake the current church business with God.

[DontLetMeDrown]

A partner and I ocasionally do work at a church and we get paid. I guess it just depends who you are dealing with. What do you think happens when they need a plumber?

[matta]

I'm with Micah and Alex on this.

Some additional thoughts...

A Church should be a 'community' of believers and it takes alot more than money to make a Church run, it takes people.

Not to get all religious but the Bible speaks of us being hands and feet in the sense that we each are given different talents to share/use to edify Christ and one another.

So yes, if you need a musician/musical director from outside of your community it is likely the Church will pay them, much like you would a plumber, electrician or any other tradesmans.

But those within the community offer up their services/skills as a way of serving Christ and each other.

I know of a cellist in the London Symphony Orchestra who volunteers at her Church for clean-up duties, which includes the toilets. She feels she can serve the Church and her community best here, she saw a need, and reached out.

My Church community is small and what little money we do bring in goes to outreach programmes like our Homeless Ministry, or Ministry to Abused Children... personally I believe the money is better spent there than trying to take my 'cut' or the proverbial money pot/pie that many people 'THINK' ALL Churches are...

Cheers

Matt

[pan60]

their is nothing wrong, ( for those inclined to believe as such ) for those in poverty to volunteer their services or to pay in time for tithing.
but their is absolutely no reason way a church cannot pay for services just as another business.
if they can pay the peachier, electric, water, so on and so on, they can pay the musicians, engineer, director, what ever.
now, this is not just for churches but any group asking for donations, it would always chap me, ( many years ago ) when everyone could be paid and the band was always asked or expected to do the job for free:(
my gear cost money my craft takes time and education!

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by pan60

their is nothing wrong, ( for those inclined to believe as such ) for those in poverty to volunteer their services or to pay in time for tithing.
but their is absolutely no reason way a church cannot pay for services just as another business.
if they can pay the peachier, electric, water, so on and so on, they can pay the musicians, engineer, director, what ever.
now, this is not just for churches but any group asking for donations, it would always chap me, ( many years ago ) when everyone could be paid and the band was always asked or expected to do the job for free:(
my gear cost money my craft takes time and education!

EXACTLY!!!! thumbsupthumbsup

[kclisby]

I'm a church musician.... have been since the age of 12 and i'm 28 now....

Here's the deal... I play for 3 churches currently.... I'm actually a member of one of those churches and because of that i play for a lot less there... and give alot more... but i still get paid..... It's a matter of principle... It is a position that requires talent and not everyone can do it... The thing that bothers me about the chuch/musician relationship is the mentality that it's "for god" so then it should be "for free"... That's absolutely wrong... The pastor of any church gets paid right?? And he's supposedly given his life to God and trusting that the Lord will provide... I'm not opposed to giving my extra time and effort in my own denomination... I will do that without question... but everyone in my band is not of my faith... so i make sure that get paid for their services... they deserve it...

The take home is like a pastor... a musician provides a service to the church... They should be compensated....

Dr. Clisby

[patrox247]

Originally Posted by kclisby

I'm a church musician.... have been since the age of 12 and i'm 28 now....

Here's the deal... I play for 3 churches currently.... I'm actually a member of one of those churches and because of that i play for a lot less there... and give alot more... but i still get paid..... It's a matter of principle... It is a position that requires talent and not everyone can do it... The thing that bothers me about the chuch/musician relationship is the mentality that it's "for god" so then it should be "for free"... That's absolutely wrong... The pastor of any church gets paid right?? And he's supposedly given his life to God and trusting that the Lord will provide... I'm not opposed to giving my extra time and effort in my own denomination... I will do that without question... but everyone in my band is not of my faith... so i make sure that get paid for their services... they deserve it...

The take home is like a pastor... a musician provides a service to the church... They should be compensated....

Dr. Clisby

I agree completely. Isn't it in the book of Corinthians where Paul says he expects to not only be paid but that he should be paid in good measure?

[kclisby]

Originally Posted by patrox247

I agree completely. Isn't it in the book of Corinthians where Paul says he expects to not only be paid but that he should be paid in good measure?

I'll have to look that up..... Gotta go play for church now!!!!!!!! Running Late..LOL

Doc

[matta]

Originally Posted by kclisby

The take home is like a pastor... a musician provides a service to the church... They should be compensated....

Dr. Clisby

Well I'm not sure how it is done in your Church but I'd hope he isn't on a 'Wage by the service' type job... For me the Pastors work at/on a Sunday service should take the LEAST effort/time in the sense their job is a 7 day a week job, not just the Sunday service. It may means making a visit to someone on their deathbed at 3am in the morning, consoling a grieving family, celebrating a wedding, or leading a Funeral etc... That IS his job, and his only source of income is the support of his community and their tithing.

It is a VERY different thing coming in for an hour rehearsal and a playing in a Sunday service... as do MOST folk do who serve the Church in a part time capacity and see this as their way of giving of their talents to Christ and one another.

It is different if you are the Church Music Director and you are also working the 6-7 day week as a FULL-TIME commitment...

There really is not RIGHT or WRONG answers here... just many shades of gray.

Cheers

Matt