Tuning a bass guitar

[gurubuzz]

When I tune a bass I notice that the attack is sharp whule the decay is flat

...according to my tuner...

So if a player is consistently playing hard should the tuning be done to
the hard pluck?????

Another way to say it is the tuner goes flat as the note decays out

so what's right??? tune to the end of the decay or tune to the attack???

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by gurubuzz

tune to the end of the decay or tune to the attack???

The change in pitch may be the tuner's own settling time. So I'd tune to the sustaining portion after the initial attack. Or better, do it the old fashioned way and tune using the 5th and 7th fret harmonics - by ear.

--Ethan

[PhilE]

Think about whats in the song. Held notes or a lot of attacks.

[PhilE]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

The change in pitch may be the tuner's own settling time. So I'd tune to the sustaining portion after the initial attack. Or better, do it the old fashioned way and tune using the 5th and 7th fret harmonics - by ear.

--Ethan

5th and 7th fret harmonics is all well and good to check but are inacurate over the full scale. If doing this you MUST check your fretted and open.
When recording I do not let people rely on this or for that matter on different tuners- everyone to the same unit please!

[FFTT]

Most tuners like the Boss TU's are sampling tuners, so that's part of the problem too.

They work fine, but can't campare to something like the Peterson rack tuner, especially
for guitar set-up.

Getting the intonation right on your bass is critical too along with
making sure your neck is as dead on as possible.

This can change with temperature and humidity too, so it all has to be taken into account.

Agree that everyone should use the same tuner for recording.

[rodge]

nice digital piano never goes outta tune, tune to that. or just melodyne the bass track once your done :)

[travisbrown]

Couple things.

The attack is when the string vibrates fastest and is stretched most strongly. The string is being pulled sharp as your finger or pick applies deflective force to it. The larger the deflection, the more you affect tension and length. Don't pull the string so much when you pluck. Violent plucking causes a longer time for the string to find its pitch as it vibrates more widely back and forth, snapping back from the string stretch.

The attack will always be sharper to some degree than the sustain/decay. You increase the tension whenever you pluck a string and pitch is determined by string length and tension. You shouldn't be pulling it noticably out of tune, though. Find the balance between a good attack and intonation.

If it's still too noticable, use higher tension strings - i.e. Heavier gauge. I'm guessing that you might be plucking harder because there is a quicker volume dropoff and the bass doesn't sustain very well. Heavier strings will help, but it might just be the bass too. Some don't sustain well. A little compression can help.

Also, make sure there aren't too many wraps of string on the tuning post. More wraps offers less resistance to deflection - the string stretches around the post.

To answer your question - the string will never go flat, only sharp. Tune the bass to the sustained note and modifiy your technique to minimize the sharpness.

[manthe]

Ever since I bought the Peterson Strobo-Flip, tuning has become much better in my studio. A good, high-quality tuner is absolutely essential, IMO. I can't see how I got by without it, now!

Also, as philE said, everyone use the *same tuner*. Very important!

As for your actual question, stringed instruments can be sharp on the attack. I always tune for the sustained note, regardless. If the guitars (and other stringed inst.) do the same, then every one will be on the same page.

There may be special circumstances in which I would break that rule, but it would be rare.

Just my opinions...

[allencollins]

this is why many players muffle the strings with their palm will playing it keeps the strings from going sharp and provides better tone. When a tech stes up a gtr itis setup up on a table . Often ther play is asked how hard he plays. This will help with setting the attack of the note on the strobe.

Many players will use use smaller fret wire I you have taller frets it is easier to press the note sharp when fretting a properly dressed fret has great impact on intonation

Many bass players that come in my studio place a small piece of light foam under the strings butt up against the bridge. Not large enough to completely muffle the string but enough to prevent it from pulling sharp or flat. this way they don't have to use the palm method.

another intonation issue can be pickup height . If a powerful pickup is to close to the string it will pull the string out of tune and modulate.

It is impossible for a gtr or bass to play 100% in tune
also get a nice Conn strobe. They are the best tuners ever made
they are mechanical not digital. Persons tuners are ok. I like the strobosoft
not perfect but close.

[gurubuzz]

Thanks man this makes perfect sense as I discovered (not being a Bass Player per say) I managed to do a riff just by the pressure on the fret..

when I played it back I thought wow did I do that???

Thanks for all your words of wisdom.

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by rodge

nice digital piano

oxymoron

[TheRealRoach]

Tried changing the strings? As strings get old they don't hold as well. Also a higher gauge string will do wonders for a hard hitter. The strings will sit tighter and therefore less susceptible to the symptom the OP describes. This will require that you setup your instrument appropriately.

[max cooper]

A lot of the sharp/flat thing depends on the player's technique.

[Unclenny]

All of the above applies.

I recently recorded a bass track to accompany a guit track from my old Stella, which I had tuned down to D.

I knew it would only be guit and bass and that the guit was bound to be off.

I tuned to my ear...to Stella...to the harmonic frequencies of the universe.

SoundClick song info: The Edge Of Free by Lenny and the Scapers - Song info page with MP3 music downloads

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by PhilE

5th and 7th fret harmonics is all well and good to check but are inacurate over the full scale. If doing this you MUST check your fretted and open.
When recording I do not let people rely on this or for that matter on different tuners- everyone to the same unit please!

It's that old devil, equal-temperament.

An equal temperament fourth is 1.96 cents sharp from the "pure" fourth.

Equal temperament (in relation to just temperament):

unison: same
minor second: 11.73 flat
major second: 3.91 flat
minor third: 15.64 flat
major third: 13.69 sharp
fourth: 1.96 sharp
dim fifth: 17.85 sharp
fifth: 1.96 flat
minor sixth 13.69 flat
sixth: 15.64 sharp
minor seventh: 3.91 sharp
major seenth: 11.7 sharp
octave: equal

More on equal temperament: Equal temperament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and equal time for just intonation: Just intonation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


When I'm playing slide, I sometimes fool around by putting my guitar in a just triad -- it sounds really pure and, as long as I don't fret, things are cool. But try playing the minor second chord fretted and things get sour pretty fast. Equal temperament makes the modern guitar and keyboard -- and modern music, for that matter, possible. But it comprises an odd set of compromises in some ways.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by PhilE

5th and 7th fret harmonics is all well and good to check but are inacurate over the full scale. If doing this you MUST check your fretted and open.

I agree to check fretted too, but if it's not in tune when the harmonics are in tune, then the bass is not set up properly.

--Ethan

[theblue1]

It is with the greatest trepidation that I question the rationale of a fine musician and technically adroit member of the community like Ethan -- but I have to say that that's not my understanding of the issues involved in tuning a fretted, equal temperament instrument.

Since the "pure" harmonic is going to lead us to tune the adjacent strings in a "just" perfect fourth interval ( 4/3 or 1.3333... ) -- but the equal temperament perfect fourth is actually -- or aprx 1.334840...



Or am I missing something here...?

I haven't been running on all 12 cylinders lately, I don't think.

[jenkel16]

this all gets easier when you measure in comma's and limma's


The influence of interval and tuning

[s.d.finley]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

I agree to check fretted too, but if it's not in tune when the harmonics are in tune, then the bass is not set up properly.

--Ethan

So true!!

If youre 12th fret harmonic doesnt sound the same pitch as the 12th fret fretted, then you need someone to adjust the bridge for you!

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by s.d.finley

So true!!

If youre 12th fret harmonic doesnt sound the same pitch as the 12th fret fretted, then you need someone to adjust the bridge for you!

That's certainly true, I think. But that's the one string. The tricky issue is getting the relative tuning from string to string worked out correctly so that your instrument is either as close to the "proper" equal temperament notes as possible -- or, perhaps, is optimized for the specific piece/key/modality you're playing in. (On six string guitars, some guitarists will tinker their tuning slightly to make the root triad sweeter than the actual equal temperament triad. Of course, doing so may make modulation problematic.)


The first time I heard a guy with a really strong sense of natural intervals playing slide, I was transfixed. Suddenly the awkwardness I'd always sensed in equal temperament but never understood seemed to melt away to "pure" tones... it took me many years to begin figuring out what was going on. (I have no formal musical training except a 1 unit theory-for-non-majors class.)

[jenkel16]

Originally Posted by theblue1

The first time I heard a guy with a really strong sense of natural intervals playing slide, I was transfixed. Suddenly the awkwardness I'd always sensed in equal temperament but never understood seemed to melt away to "pure" tones... it took me many years to begin figuring out what was going on. (I have no formal musical training except a 1 unit theory-for-non-majors class.)

I have no formal musical training either and have always been "at odds" with western theory. It has always seemed forced, convoluted and narrow minded. Seriously check out the book I posted in the link above. For me it confirmed and expanded many things I had suspected.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by jenkel16

I have no formal musical training either and have always been "at odds" with western theory. It has always seemed forced, convoluted and narrow minded. Seriously check out the book I posted in the link above. For me it confirmed and expanded many things I had suspected.

I took a look at the Amazon page but there wasn't a lot of info there... maybe I missed something? It's certainly true that as useful as the European-developed equal temperament system is that it's far from the only temperament system...

I've finally made some kind of peace with equal temperament after exploring a number of just intoned compositions as well as studying the isolated just intoned intervals and basic chords. Major and minor triads definitely sound more pure (sweeter if you will) but diminished chords and the like (flat fives particularly, in my memory) become extremely provocative to ears accustomed to equal temp.

But I think the ability to get closer to "pure" harmonic intervals of some instruments (the sitar comes to mind as an instrument where the player is very much in control of microtuning as he plays; slide guitar and pedal steel, of course; slide trombone often sounds "preternaturally" in tune when played by the right guy) adds much to their allure. (And, of course, as I understand it, many string players change their stop positions by very tiny amounts, perhaps often unconsciously, when playing a given "note" in different harmonic contexts. One violist I talked to called it, IIRC, playing "bright" or "dark" -- as required by the harmonic context.)

[jenkel16]

Originally Posted by theblue1

I took a look at the Amazon page but there wasn't a lot of info there... maybe I missed something? It's certainly true that as useful as the European-developed equal temperament system is that it's far from the only temperament system...

You're right, there is not much there. A brief look around the internet brought up nothing more as well . It is, in brief, a mathematical and (to use the authors words) metaphysical description of Indian music theory and comparisons between the greek style, egyptian/persian style, chinese, western and indian styles.

I came into it through my girlfriends cognitive science thesis, and having read it would gladly pay the $16 to own it. In looking around I saw a price listing for Wal-mart, or have a look the next time at the library. FWIW, I recommend it as intriguing if such things intrigue you as they do me.

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by Joe Porto

I understand that it is common to set up an instrument while laying on a table, but this is NOT the best way to do it, as when it is in the playing position, the neck flexes differently, and intonation will change. This is more pronounced on a bass, and anything with a heavy headstock.

I always set up a stringed instrument while it is in it's playing position.

Well, anyone qualified to set up a guitar or bass doesn't have the neck unsupported while it's on its back.

It's not an issue whether its on a table or in playing position if supported properly.

And it's not going to affect scale length and fret position, which are your intonation issues. At most it will affect action in the smallest way. And if it's unsupported with a really, really heavy headstock, you might have to tune up a cent or two once you pick it up.

If your neck moves that much with all that string tension and a truss rod, you've got bigger issues.

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by theblue1

It is with the greatest trepidation that I question the rationale of a fine musician and technically adroit member of the community like Ethan -- but I have to say that that's not my understanding of the issues involved in tuning a fretted, equal temperament instrument.

Since the "pure" harmonic is going to lead us to tune the adjacent strings in a "just" perfect fourth interval ( 4/3 or 1.3333... ) -- but the equal temperament perfect fourth is actually -- or aprx 1.334840...



Or am I missing something here...?

I haven't been running on all 12 cylinders lately, I don't think.

No, this looks right to me.

And it's a great argument for just intonation.

You really can't get a guitar or bass perfectly in tune with itself under the current regime.

[PhilE]

Originally Posted by theblue1

That's certainly true, I think. But that's the one string. The tricky issue is getting the relative tuning from string to string worked out correctly so that your instrument is either as close to the "proper" equal temperament notes as possible -- or, perhaps, is optimized for the specific piece/key/modality you're playing in. (On six string guitars, some guitarists will tinker their tuning slightly to make the root triad sweeter than the actual equal temperament triad. Of course, doing so may make modulation problematic.)